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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3? (Read 39263 times)
Matemax
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #31 - 05/01/08 at 16:01:55
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Quote:
Here is my idea:

After
17 b4 Rdf8
18 Rfb1

How about 18 ...Qf7

The idea is that after:

19 b5 a5
20 b6

White's d pawn is pinned- so both 20 ...c6 and 20 ...c5 look interesting.

In the ...c5 lines- obviously black's a pawn is quite weak- but if white hunts it down it takes time- and black has counterplay ideas like ...Qxd5, or Qf2+ and xe3 or even maybe h5-h4-h3.
It looks interesting/playable to me.

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This is a nice tactical argument - I tried some lines, and think that White still gets the better play:

18....Qf7 19.b5 a5 20.b6 c6
(20. ... c5 21.Rf1! Qd7 22.Qb5 with the idea Qxb5 23.axb5±)
21.Qg4+
(21.Rb5 ?! Kb8 22.Rxa5 Qf2+ 23.Kh1 Qd2 24.Ra7 Qxd5 leaves the rook offside)
21...Qd7 22.Qd1 Rf5
(22. ... Qf7 23.dxc6+-)
23.Qd2 Rhf8 24.Qxa5 (White has won the a5-pawn, Black has to find counterplay) Kd8☐ 25.Rf1 Ke7 26.Qd2 Rxf1+ 27.Rxf1 Rxf1+ 28.Kxf1 c5 29.a5 Qa4 30.Qd3 ±
  
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John Hall
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #30 - 05/01/08 at 15:15:27
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Matemax wrote on 05/01/08 at 14:26:41:
Quote:
we don't have to keep debating these same old ideas.

I´m with you! Lets go back to the intention of this thread - 17.b4 in the line with d3 - all those who have a "?" in their head now, please scroll back to the beginning where I put a diagram promoting this idea of John Shaw (at least Yearbook credits this to him) and some lines.

OK - so far no one has really reputed my idea (Beware Teimour, I´ll get you!  Grin) despite some kind contribution from MNb ("long analysis - wrong analysis").

Come on guys - you can do better, or is this the end of the Schliemann? Wink



Here is my idea:

After
17 b4 Rdf8
18 Rfb1

How about 18 ...Qf7

The idea is that after:

19 b5 a5
20 b6

White's d pawn is pinned- so both 20 ...c6 and 20 ...c5 look interesting.

In the ...c5 lines- obviously black's a pawn is quite weak- but if white hunts it down it takes time- and black has counterplay ideas like ...Qxd5, or Qf2+ and xe3 or even maybe h5-h4-h3.
It looks interesting/playable to me.

  
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MNb
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #29 - 05/01/08 at 14:51:27
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A recap for those who are too lazy to scroll back:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 Nf6 6.O-O Bc5 7.Qd3 d6 8.Qc4 Qe7 9.Nc3 Bd7 10.Nd5 Nxd5 11.exd5 Nd4 12.Nxd4 Bxd4 13.Bxd7+ Qxd7 14.a4 a6 15.Be3 Bxe3 16.fxe3 O-O-O 17.b4 Rdf8 18.Rfb1
The starting position of this thread.

Rf7 19.b5 a5 20.b6 Kb8 21.Qd3 g5 22.Rb5 cxb6 23.Rxb6 Rc8 24.Rab1 Rc7
Rc5 should lead to the same position.

25.Qa6 Rxc2 26.Rxb7+ Qxb7 27.Rxb7+ Rxb7 28.Qxd6+ Ka7 29.h3 Rbb2 30.Qe7+ Kb6 31.Qxg5

a) 31...Rxg2+ 32.Qxg2 Rxg2+ 33.Kxg2 e4 34.Kg3 Kc5 35.Kf4 Kxd5 36.Kf5 Kc4 37.Kxe4 Kb3 38.Kd3 Kxa4 39.Kc4

b) 31...Kc5 32.e4 Kb4 33.Kh1 Rd2 34.d6 Rxd6 35.Qe7 Rd2 36.Qxe5 Kxa4 37.Qe8+ Kb4 38.Qe7 Kc3 39.Qc7+ Kb4 40.Qxh7


Most moves are by Matemax, as the expression "long analysis, wrong analysis" only applies to myself.
  

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Matemax
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #28 - 05/01/08 at 14:26:41
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Quote:
we don't have to keep debating these same old ideas.

I´m with you! Lets go back to the intention of this thread - 17.b4 in the line with d3 - all those who have a "?" in their head now, please scroll back to the beginning where I put a diagram promoting this idea of John Shaw (at least Yearbook credits this to him) and some lines.

OK - so far no one has really reputed my idea (Beware Teimour, I´ll get you!  Grin) despite some kind contribution from MNb ("long analysis - wrong analysis").

Come on guys - you can do better, or is this the end of the Schliemann? Wink
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #27 - 05/01/08 at 13:48:15
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realpolitik wrote on 04/30/08 at 16:34:51:
Quote:
Markovich
  Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #14 - 04/28/08 at 13:10:01 

Well since you ask, I will again put forward my often-expressed view that 3...f5 is downright unsound, and not because of 4.d3.



This seems a rather bold statement to make. I will freely admit to not knowing a whole lot about the Schliemann however in conversation with a strong GM recently the subject of the Schliemann cropped up and he stated that based on an extensive recent study of the opening that he had undertaken he felt that it was very playable for Black. With best play there are some lines where Black can only make a draw but there are also a lot of lines where Black gets nice play. This is a strong GM former competitor in the Candidates and also if someone like Radjabov is willing to venture it against some of the top players I would say that it is doubtful if it is fundamentally unsound.


Well you really should search back on this subject; you'll find convincing argments there that after 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4, both 5...Nf6 and 5...d5 fail rather miserably.  But if your GM friend thinks 3...f5 is so strong, I suggest he take it up. 

If I am proven wrong it wouldn't be the first time, but so far I haven't seen convincing lines of play where Black can hold.

Honestly, someone should put a sticky tag on those old Jaenisch threads so we don't have to keep debating these same old ideas.
  

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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #26 - 04/30/08 at 16:34:51
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Quote:
Markovich
 Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #14 - 04/28/08 at 13:10:01  

Well since you ask, I will again put forward my often-expressed view that 3...f5 is downright unsound, and not because of 4.d3.



This seems a rather bold statement to make. I will freely admit to not knowing a whole lot about the Schliemann however in conversation with a strong GM recently the subject of the Schliemann cropped up and he stated that based on an extensive recent study of the opening that he had undertaken he felt that it was very playable for Black. With best play there are some lines where Black can only make a draw but there are also a lot of lines where Black gets nice play. This is a strong GM former competitor in the Candidates and also if someone like Radjabov is willing to venture it against some of the top players I would say that it is doubtful if it is fundamentally unsound.
  
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The King
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #25 - 04/29/08 at 13:13:31
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A very interesting observation Willempie.  Pick a defence that is not so highly regarded, study it in detail and set your goal as not to lose!

This could be very frustrating for your opponents.  I wonder will Radjabov drop it in time, just before they figure out how to beat him?  Then he can choose a new weapon and do the same!
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #24 - 04/29/08 at 08:28:11
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The King wrote on 04/28/08 at 13:23:42:
Thanks for the response Markovich.  I assume you are referring to 4.Nc3?  I wonder why none of Radjabov's opponents play this?  Surely they have looked at it in their preparation?  

If as you say 3...f5 is downright unsound, then I am a bit dissapointed that Anand, Svidler etc can't refute it!

Maybe they should hire you as a second?

He plays it in a similar way to Kramnik's Bg6 in the Slav or the Berlin: He gives white some advantage but never enough to win.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #23 - 04/28/08 at 19:01:40
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Yes Matemax, he has shown and I agree White has all the winning chance here, but I challenge the White side to win (I am ok to try to defend the Black side on the forum in a game).
  
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Matemax
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #22 - 04/28/08 at 18:44:41
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I don't know what Radjabov has in mind against 4.Nc3, but I think he does play the main alternative to 4..fex4 5.Nxe4 d5

I think he goes 5...Nf6 as played againt Polgar - 5...d5 is just bad as shown by Markovich!
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #21 - 04/28/08 at 17:29:02
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I don't know what Radjabov has in mind against 4.Nc3, but I think he does play the main alternative to 4..fex4 5.Nxe4 d5 etc. Markovich and me had a previous debate on the subject but as I say I still believe that Black can survive here, even in the ending a pawn down (but with insane play).
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #20 - 04/28/08 at 16:22:34
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The King wrote on 04/28/08 at 15:06:55:
I apologise if you took my post as mockery, it was the last thing I would have wanted.  Yours is one of the few names I look for when browsing a thread (Topnotch, Mnb, Willempie and Keano are among the others) as I find your views very interesting.

I assure you my comments were genuine.  I know you are a strong player (2300 or more if I remember correctly).  I am only rated 1730.  I am genuinly interested that you think 4.d3 is not the way to go, yet all the top players keep playing it.  Do you have any views on why this is?

My point was that these guys are seriously strong have plenty of time to prepare for Radjabov yet they are all avoiding 4.Nc3

I do not doubt your view that 3...f5 is downright unsound, as I am not strong enough to challenge your or the top players analysis.  I just find it facinating that this move is being played all the time by Radjabov at this level.

I have only faced it once against a 1400 player and was unable to beat him.  I played 4.d3 and he played a move I couldn't find in Kaufmann's book at move 7 or 8.  I will dig out the game and post it here as soon as I can.

I hope you accept my apology as I have never insulted or mocked anyone on this forum (check my previous posts) and never will.


I'm sorry for having been so touchy.  You're fine.
  

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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #19 - 04/28/08 at 16:20:39
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MNb wrote on 04/28/08 at 16:10:58:
The King wrote on 04/28/08 at 12:52:17:
Sorry to be slightly off topic, but if someone can play a move like 3...f5 repeatedly against the best players in the world and get away with it, does this mean that 3.Bb5 is not necessarily a better move than 3.d4 or 3.Bc4 or 2.d4 or 2.f4 for that matter?


I think it's still too early to contemplate on conclusions like this. While it is true that Radjabov has done a fine job so far, I also feel that a few more tests of critical lines are needed.

Even the Berlin Wall has fallen  Wink
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #18 - 04/28/08 at 16:10:58
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The King wrote on 04/28/08 at 12:52:17:
Sorry to be slightly off topic, but if someone can play a move like 3...f5 repeatedly against the best players in the world and get away with it, does this mean that 3.Bb5 is not necessarily a better move than 3.d4 or 3.Bc4 or 2.d4 or 2.f4 for that matter?


I think it's still too early to contemplate on conclusions like this. While it is true that Radjabov has done a fine job so far, I also feel that a few more tests of critical lines are needed.
  

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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #17 - 04/28/08 at 15:06:55
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I apologise if you took my post as mockery, it was the last thing I would have wanted.  Yours is one of the few names I look for when browsing a thread (Topnotch, Mnb, Willempie and Keano are among the others) as I find your views very interesting.

I assure you my comments were genuine.  I know you are a strong player (2300 or more if I remember correctly).  I am only rated 1730.  I am genuinly interested that you think 4.d3 is not the way to go, yet all the top players keep playing it.  Do you have any views on why this is?

My point was that these guys are seriously strong have plenty of time to prepare for Radjabov yet they are all avoiding 4.Nc3

I do not doubt your view that 3...f5 is downright unsound, as I am not strong enough to challenge your or the top players analysis.  I just find it facinating that this move is being played all the time by Radjabov at this level.

I have only faced it once against a 1400 player and was unable to beat him.  I played 4.d3 and he played a move I couldn't find in Kaufmann's book at move 7 or 8.  I will dig out the game and post it here as soon as I can.

I hope you accept my apology as I have never insulted or mocked anyone on this forum (check my previous posts) and never will.
  
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