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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3? (Read 39280 times)
ArKheiN
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #46 - 06/18/08 at 21:07:55
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Im still waiting to lose as Black against 4.Nc3 fxe4 in a "analytical "game on the forum Smiley
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #45 - 06/18/08 at 13:16:42
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Strategy_Rules wrote on 06/18/08 at 11:22:54:
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Well since you ask, I will again put forward my often-expressed view that 3...f5 is downright unsound, and not because of 4.d3.


After analysing 3...f5 for a long time I must agree that the Schliemann is completely unsound. Sorry to all Schliemann-lovers Smiley
Well, thats just my view and I dont mind if you do not believe me Wink
In my opinion: 4.Nc3 leads to a clear advantage for white, after 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 Sf6 6.0-0 the best move is 6...d6, after 6...Bc5 black is very close to a lost position (by the way, not only the variation with Qd1-d3-c4 is strong ...  Cool ... )
The question why some very strong GMs failed to refute the Schliemann in their games against Radjabov can have many reasons.
Anyway, this does not mean that the Schliemann cannot be refuted (in the sense of clear advantage for white) of course.


You may be right about 6...Bc5 after 4.d3, but there is nothing here to prove it.  Since there has been quite a bit of sharing of specifics about 4.d3 on this thread already, perhaps you would be good enough to say just how White wins after 6...Bc5?

Until I see something convincing in 4.d3's favor, I will maintain my view that only Nc3 takes full advantage of White's opportunities at move 4, and that 4.d3 is a good move but not one that refutes the Schliemann  -- a view that I defended above with some specific analysis.
  

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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #44 - 06/18/08 at 11:22:54
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Quote:
Well since you ask, I will again put forward my often-expressed view that 3...f5 is downright unsound, and not because of 4.d3.


After analysing 3...f5 for a long time I must agree that the Schliemann is completely unsound. Sorry to all Schliemann-lovers Smiley
Well, thats just my view and I dont mind if you do not believe me Wink
In my opinion: 4.Nc3 leads to a clear advantage for white, after 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 Sf6 6.0-0 the best move is 6...d6, after 6...Bc5 black is very close to a lost position (by the way, not only the variation with Qd1-d3-c4 is strong ...  Cool ... )
The question why some very strong GMs failed to refute the Schliemann in their games against Radjabov can have many reasons.
Anyway, this does not mean that the Schliemann cannot be refuted (in the sense of clear advantage for white) of course.
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #43 - 06/09/08 at 06:20:42
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TopNotch wrote on 06/09/08 at 00:59:32:
Matemax wrote on 06/07/08 at 07:55:03:
TopNotch wrote on 04/19/08 at 21:34:03:
There was a discussion of the following sideline in a related thread:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 Nf6 5.0-0 Bc5

I do not remember the consensus from the other thread, but my question is is this line of the Schliemann any worse than Radjabov's current treatment?

Toppy Smiley

Yearbook 87 arrived - van der Tak writes in the "Forum" about the mentioned line and proposes: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 Nf6 5.ef5 Bf5 6.0-0 0-0 7.Be3 - "Black is not entirely out of trouble yet"

There is also a major article on the d3-Variation "The return of the Jaenisch - Part I" - and the promise to come up with something to 4.Nc3 in Yearbook 88


That looks like an illegal move, perhaps you meant 5...Bc5 instead when the continuation 6.0-0 0-0 7.Be3 Nd4 follows the game Banas - Ivanovic 1979, where White managed to gain a slight advantage and eventually win. However in that game there are improvements for both sides, and I'm still not sure whether this line represents best play for White.

All in all I don't think players on the club level choose the Schliemann to defend the type of positions that are typical after the modern 4.d3

Toppy Smiley


Sorry mistyping:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 Nf6 5.ef5 Bc5 6.0-0 0-0 7.Be3 - "Black is not entirely out of trouble yet"
7...Nd4 8.c3 Nf3 9.Qf3 Be7 (so far following Banas-Ivanovic), but now 10.d4!? (Van der Tak: "an idea given by my computer")

About club-level: The first intention to play 3...f5 is probably the reduction of theory and the avoidance of the exchange variation. But nowadays one is nearly extravagant to play 1...e5 at all - most club players go for semi-open games - again I think due to reducing the amount of theory.
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #42 - 06/09/08 at 00:59:32
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Matemax wrote on 06/07/08 at 07:55:03:
TopNotch wrote on 04/19/08 at 21:34:03:
There was a discussion of the following sideline in a related thread:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 Nf6 5.0-0 Bc5

I do not remember the consensus from the other thread, but my question is is this line of the Schliemann any worse than Radjabov's current treatment?

Toppy Smiley

Yearbook 87 arrived - van der Tak writes in the "Forum" about the mentioned line and proposes: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 Nf6 5.ef5 Bf5 6.0-0 0-0 7.Be3 - "Black is not entirely out of trouble yet"

There is also a major article on the d3-Variation "The return of the Jaenisch - Part I" - and the promise to come up with something to 4.Nc3 in Yearbook 88


That looks like an illegal move, perhaps you meant 5...Bc5 instead when the continuation 6.0-0 0-0 7.Be3 Nd4 follows the game Banas - Ivanovic 1979, where White managed to gain a slight advantage and eventually win. However in that game there are improvements for both sides, and I'm still not sure whether this line represents best play for White.

All in all I don't think players on the club level choose the Schliemann to defend the type of positions that are typical after the modern 4.d3

Toppy Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #41 - 06/07/08 at 07:55:03
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TopNotch wrote on 04/19/08 at 21:34:03:
There was a discussion of the following sideline in a related thread:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 Nf6 5.0-0 Bc5

I do not remember the consensus from the other thread, but my question is is this line of the Schliemann any worse than Radjabov's current treatment?

Toppy Smiley

Yearbook 87 arrived - van der Tak writes in the "Forum" about the mentioned line and proposes: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 Nf6 5.ef5 Bf5 6.0-0 0-0 7.Be3 - "Black is not entirely out of trouble yet"

There is also a major article on the d3-Variation "The return of the Jaenisch - Part I" - and the promise to come up with something to 4.Nc3 in Yearbook 88
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #40 - 05/14/08 at 00:08:40
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Now I am quoting myself: I said: [quote][Or Black can try something that never has been played yet: 12..0-0!?, a move from Rybka which try to complicate the game with a sharp game but it ends with 2 pawns for Black against a piece, which is better for White...

/quote]
And indeed Mark Noble tryed Rybka's move. The win is spectacular and I had previously analysed that line with Rybka before that game.
In fact I feared the line beginning with 16.h3! instead of 16.gxf3?! where I tought White would get a clear advantage. For example 16.h3 Rxf2 17.hxg4! Rxf1+ 18.Qxf1 exd4 19.Nd2 Rf8 20.Qe2 +/-

But in fact I think there is 16.h3 Nxf2! 17.gxf3 Nxh3+ 18.Kg2 Qh4 or something like that (I have not checked deeply yet but 16..Nxf2 is probably the good move here)where it seems that Black has "at least!" a draw despite the rook down. Wonderful line!! Im happy that it works.
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #39 - 05/13/08 at 13:46:43
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Matemax wrote on 05/13/08 at 11:24:56:
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There is another line that is promising for White against that move order with 8..Qe7: I feel that 9.b4! is quite strong here, where after the forced sequence 9..Be6 10.Bxc6 bxc6 11.Qa6 Bb6 12.a4, there is a somewhat inferior ending for Black after 12..Nxe4 13.a5 Bxf2+ 14.Rxf3 Nxf2 15.Qxc6+ Kf7 16.Kxf2


Jan Helblich (2520) - Mark Noble (2497)
ICCF Championsleage 2007 B4/Board 1
corr.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 Nf6 6.O-O Bc5 7.Qe2 d6 8.Qc4 Qe7 9.b4 Be6 10.Bxc6+ bxc6 11.Qa6 Bb6 12.a4 O-O 13.a5 Bd4 14.c3 Ng4 15.cxd4 Rxf3 16.gxf3 Qh4 17.h3 Nh2 18.Ra3 Bxh3 19.Qc4+ Kf8 20.Qxc6 Re8 0-1

What a shocker!  Shocked


Nice game.
  

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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #38 - 05/13/08 at 11:24:56
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Quote:
There is another line that is promising for White against that move order with 8..Qe7: I feel that 9.b4! is quite strong here, where after the forced sequence 9..Be6 10.Bxc6 bxc6 11.Qa6 Bb6 12.a4, there is a somewhat inferior ending for Black after 12..Nxe4 13.a5 Bxf2+ 14.Rxf3 Nxf2 15.Qxc6+ Kf7 16.Kxf2


Jan Helblich (2520) - Mark Noble (2497)
ICCF Championsleage 2007 B4/Board 1
corr.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 Nf6 6.O-O Bc5 7.Qe2 d6 8.Qc4 Qe7 9.b4 Be6 10.Bxc6+ bxc6 11.Qa6 Bb6 12.a4 O-O 13.a5 Bd4 14.c3 Ng4 15.cxd4 Rxf3 16.gxf3 Qh4 17.h3 Nh2 18.Ra3 Bxh3 19.Qc4+ Kf8 20.Qxc6 Re8 0-1

What a shocker!  Shocked
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #37 - 05/10/08 at 22:20:48
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I keep my idea to defend 3..f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 d5 6.Nxe5 dxe4 in a or simultaneous games here on the forum. Right, I might be play just to survive in somes lines here but that's a good challenge to me.
I'm just waiting a White player taking the challenge here.
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #36 - 05/10/08 at 10:07:48
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As I see it, the queen still needs to remain at home after 25....Qf6 26.h3; Black should play 26...Rd8 (26...Rd7 may amount to the same thing after 27.Qa6 Rff7) 27.Qa6 Rdd7 28.Rc3 (26.Qxa5 carries out your plan but then 26...g4) 28...Rf8.  I am not sure how White makes progress now. 29.Qb5 Qf7 and very soon ...g4.  Or 29.e4 g4 30.hxg4 Qf2+ 31.Kh1 Qd4.  Parenthetically, these lines illustrate the merit of 21...g5.

Maybe you will be able to demonstrate some tactic that I and my silicon buddy here haven't foreseen, but I must say that after 21...g5, I find it difficult to credit a claim of substantial White advantage.  I admit that Black has to strike a careful balance between defense and counterattack.


I agree that g5-ideas may be the right way to look for counterplay and at the moment I have no clear way for white. Perhaps White should place his queen on e2 and then try to improve his position and attack. Anyway I am not sure if this could be solved with analyses (well we are  reaching move 30  Shocked) - but I will certainly try to test the line in praxis. One nice point of whites position is that there are many lines where he can force a draw with a rook sac on b7 followed by checks with the queen - as would be possible after your suggestion 26...Rd8: 27.Rxb7+ Rxb7 28.Rxb7+ Kxb7 29.Qb5 =

I also slightly share your opinion that 4.Nc3 is the main challenge to blacks outraging 3...f5 - but at the moment it looks like Radjabov has taken the fun out of this approach with his Nf6 play. Any ideas there?
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #35 - 05/09/08 at 01:32:12
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Matemax wrote on 05/08/08 at 06:50:38:
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My thoughts are that Black is fine after 21...g5 instead of 21...Qf5.  He keeps his queen at home and still prepares kingside counterplay.

A. If 22.Rc3 then 22...Kb8 23.Rcb3 c6 24.dxc6 Qxc6 25.Qxc6 bxc6 26.c4 Rf2 27.Rd3 Rc2= or 26.Rd3 Rf2=.

B. 22.e4 Kb8 23.Rab3 Rc8 24.bxc7+ Qxc7 (or 24...Rxc7 25.Qa6 Rf4, for inatance 26.Qd3 Rf7 27.Rb5 Qc8 or 26.Ra5 Rxe4 27.Rxa5 Re1+ 28.Kf2 Rxc2+ 29.Kxe1 Rc1+ 30.Rxc1 axb6 and I think that here the queen can draw against the two rooks because White's king is exposed) 25.Rxb7+ Qxb7 26.Rxb7+ Rxb7 27.Qa6 Rb1+ 28.Kf2 Rxc2+ 29.Kg3 Kc7 30.Qxa5 Rb6 and I am not sure, but I believe the rooks can hold against the queen and pawn.

These ideas are very preliminary, of course.


Just two thoughts:

1) I think White should NOT play e4 (only if forced) cause he takes away this square and disconnects the way to the kingside for his queen

2) Playing bc7 followed by doubling the rooks on the b-file and trying to win the a-pawn is the main plan


Sample line:

21...g5 Markovich 22.Rc3 Kb8 23.bxc7+ Qxc7 24.Qd3 Qd8 25.Rcb3 Qf6 26.h3 Qf2+ 27.Kh1 White now threatens Qa6 with double attack (b7, d6) Rd7 28.Qa6 Rff7 29.Rc3 Qe1+ 30.Rxe1 bxa6 31.Rc6 +/-


As I see it, the queen still needs to remain at home after 25....Qf6 26.h3; Black should play 26...Rd8 (26...Rd7 may amount to the same thing after 27.Qa6 Rff7) 27.Qa6 Rdd7 28.Rc3 (26.Qxa5 carries out your plan but then 26...g4) 28...Rf8.  I am not sure how White makes progress now. 29.Qb5 Qf7 and very soon ...g4.  Or 29.e4 g4 30.hxg4 Qf2+ 31.Kh1 Qd4.  Parenthetically, these lines illustrate the merit of 21...g5.

Maybe you will be able to demonstrate some tactic that I and my silicon buddy here haven't foreseen, but I must say that after 21...g5, I find it difficult to credit a claim of substantial White advantage.  I admit that Black has to strike a careful balance between defense and counterattack.
  

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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #34 - 05/08/08 at 06:50:38
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My thoughts are that Black is fine after 21...g5 instead of 21...Qf5.  He keeps his queen at home and still prepares kingside counterplay.

A. If 22.Rc3 then 22...Kb8 23.Rcb3 c6 24.dxc6 Qxc6 25.Qxc6 bxc6 26.c4 Rf2 27.Rd3 Rc2= or 26.Rd3 Rf2=.

B. 22.e4 Kb8 23.Rab3 Rc8 24.bxc7+ Qxc7 (or 24...Rxc7 25.Qa6 Rf4, for inatance 26.Qd3 Rf7 27.Rb5 Qc8 or 26.Ra5 Rxe4 27.Rxa5 Re1+ 28.Kf2 Rxc2+ 29.Kxe1 Rc1+ 30.Rxc1 axb6 and I think that here the queen can draw against the two rooks because White's king is exposed) 25.Rxb7+ Qxb7 26.Rxb7+ Rxb7 27.Qa6 Rb1+ 28.Kf2 Rxc2+ 29.Kg3 Kc7 30.Qxa5 Rb6 and I am not sure, but I believe the rooks can hold against the queen and pawn.

These ideas are very preliminary, of course.


Just two thoughts:

1) I think White should NOT play e4 (only if forced) cause he takes away this square and disconnects the way to the kingside for his queen

2) Playing bc7 followed by doubling the rooks on the b-file and trying to win the a-pawn is the main plan


Sample line:

21...g5 Markovich 22.Rc3 Kb8 23.bxc7+ Qxc7 24.Qd3 Qd8 25.Rcb3 Qf6 26.h3 Qf2+ 27.Kh1 White now threatens Qa6 with double attack (b7, d6) Rd7 28.Qa6 Rff7 29.Rc3 Qe1+ 30.Rxe1 bxa6 31.Rc6 +/-
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #33 - 05/08/08 at 02:18:53
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Matemax wrote on 04/19/08 at 15:44:51:
Hi my dear chessfriends!

I hope you dont mind that I try to give the 4.d3-Schliemann/Jaenisch another go. GM Tony Kosten discussed Carlsen-Radjabov in the April 2008 update on chesspublishing.com - the core variation (at the moment) for the 4.d3 line:

After the moves:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 Nf6 6.O-O Bc5 7.Qd3 d6 8.Qc4 Qe7 9.Nc3 Bd7 10.Nd5 Nxd5 11.exd5 Nd4 12.Nxd4 Bxd4 13.Bxd7+ Qxd7 14.a4 a6 15.Be3 Bxe3 16.fxe3 O-O-O

In this position Carlsen and before him Topalov played 17.Rf2 against Radjabov.

Having a look at Yearbook 73 I read on page 95 a suggestion from John Shaw: 17.b4

I could not find any games with 17.b4 (chesslive.de) - but I think it is a serious winning try - I put together some sample variations:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 Nf6 6.O-O Bc5 7.Qd3 d6 8.Qc4 Qe7 9.Nc3 Bd7 10.Nd5 Nxd5 11.exd5 Nd4 12.Nxd4 Bxd4 13.Bxd7+ Qxd7 14.a4 a6 15.Be3 Bxe3 16.fxe3 O-O-O 17.b4

This move may look strange at first thougth - why give up the open file? The idea is to avoid further exchanges of pieces and to keep attacking material.

Now what may happen if Black just takes the f-file:
18...Rf7 19.b5 a5 (only move) 20.b6

Lets have a look at two possible continuations:

a) 20...Rhf8 21.Ra3 Qf5 ( 21...h5 22.Rc3 Kb8 23.bxc7+ Qxc7 24.Qd3 Qe7 25.Rcb3±) 22.h3 g5 

What are your thoughts? Where to improve for Black?


My thoughts are that Black is fine after 21...g5 instead of 21...Qf5.  He keeps his queen at home and still prepares kingside counterplay.

A. If 22.Rc3 then 22...Kb8 23.Rcb3 c6 24.dxc6 Qxc6 25.Qxc6 bxc6 26.c4 Rf2 27.Rd3 Rc2= or 26.Rd3 Rf2=.

B. 22.e4 Kb8 23.Rab3 Rc8 24.bxc7+ Qxc7 (or 24...Rxc7 25.Qa6 Rf4, for inatance 26.Qd3 Rf7 27.Rb5 Qc8 or 26.Ra5 Rxe4 27.Rxa5 Re1+ 28.Kf2 Rxc2+ 29.Kxe1 Rc1+ 30.Rxc1 axb6 and I think that here the queen can draw against the two rooks because White's king is exposed) 25.Rxb7+ Qxb7 26.Rxb7+ Rxb7 27.Qa6 Rb1+ 28.Kf2 Rxc2+ 29.Kg3 Kc7 30.Qxa5 Rb6 and I am not sure, but I believe the rooks can hold against the queen and pawn.

These ideas are very preliminary, of course.
  

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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #32 - 05/01/08 at 17:50:43
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Maybe 17..Rhf8 instead of Rdf8 is most precise: in most line it might change nothing but there is an advantage of that move: if the c-file is opened by a bxc7, the d-rook can go to c8 so you have a rook on the c-file and one on the f-file.

For example 27..Rhf8 18.Rfb1 Qf7!?(18..Kc8 and 18..Rf7 might be playable too) 19.b5 a5 20.b6 Kb8 and now, if 21.Qd3 Rc8 and Black should be ok. I really believe on Black's chance to keep the balance in the whole line with 12.Nxd4, but I agree once more that White's play is a little easier than Black's. Hard to win with the Schliemann against the best play by White, only the draw with perfect play should be Black's chance, but that's true for many openings.
  
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