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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3? (Read 39275 times)
Markovich
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #16 - 04/28/08 at 13:33:35
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The King wrote on 04/28/08 at 13:23:42:
Thanks for the response Markovich.  I assume you are referring to 4.Nc3?  I wonder why none of Radjabov's opponents play this?  Surely they have looked at it in their preparation? 

If as you say 3...f5 is downright unsound, then I am a bit dissapointed that Anand, Svidler etc can't refute it!

Maybe they should hire you as a second?


If you want the advice of Anand and Svidler, this is not the place to find them.  If you want the views of those who do post here, I suggest you not return them with mockery.
  

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The King
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #15 - 04/28/08 at 13:23:42
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Thanks for the response Markovich.  I assume you are referring to 4.Nc3?  I wonder why none of Radjabov's opponents play this?  Surely they have looked at it in their preparation? 

If as you say 3...f5 is downright unsound, then I am a bit dissapointed that Anand, Svidler etc can't refute it!

Maybe they should hire you as a second?
  
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Markovich
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #14 - 04/28/08 at 13:10:01
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The King wrote on 04/28/08 at 12:52:17:
Sorry to be slightly off topic, but if someone can play a move like 3...f5 repeatedly against the best players in the world and get away with it, does this mean that 3.Bb5 is not necessarily a better move than 3.d4 or 3.Bc4 or 2.d4 or 2.f4 for that matter?

If a move like 3...f5 is that good I might have to stop playing 1.e4!

I am half joking about the last part, but I would be interested to know others opinion on this.


Well since you ask, I will again put forward my often-expressed view that 3...f5 is downright unsound, and not because of 4.d3.
  

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The King
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #13 - 04/28/08 at 12:52:17
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Sorry to be slightly off topic, but if someone can play a move like 3...f5 repeatedly against the best players in the world and get away with it, does this mean that 3.Bb5 is not necessarily a better move than 3.d4 or 3.Bc4 or 2.d4 or 2.f4 for that matter?

If a move like 3...f5 is that good I might have to stop playing 1.e4!

I am half joking about the last part, but I would be interested to know others opinion on this.
  
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ArKheiN
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #12 - 04/27/08 at 14:16:00
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17.b4 might be an improvment, but I think Radjabov might have analysed this move seriously too and believe in Black's chance to survive here too.

There is another line that is promising for White against that move order with 8..Qe7: I feel that 9.b4! is quite strong here, where after the forced sequence 9..Be6 10.Bxc6 bxc6 11.Qa6 Bb6 12.a4, there is a somewhat inferior ending for Black after 12..Nxe4 13.a5 Bxf2+ 14.Rxf3 Nxf2 15.Qxc6+ Kf7 16.Kxf2

Or Black can try something that never has been played yet: 12..0-0!?, a move from Rybka which try to complicate the game with a sharp game but it ends with 2 pawns for Black against a piece, which is better for White...

If my assesment is correct, I recommand 8..Bd7 instead of 8..Qe7, where the idea with b4 doesn't work now. And now 9.Nc3 often transpose with 9..Qe7 where 9.b4 has been avoided. But if White want to "refute" that move order, there is 9.Bxc6 Bxc6 10.Nxe5 Bxf2+ 11.Rxf2 dxe5 12.Nc3 Qe7 13.Be3 Qf7 where I believe Black have equality (but still maybe easier to play for White).
  
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Matemax
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #11 - 04/27/08 at 12:05:21
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New adventures in the Schliemann played at BAKU 2008:

Mamedyarov-Radjabov:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 Nf6 6.O-O Bc5 7.Qd3 d6 8.Qc4 Qe7 9.Nc3 Bd7 10.Nd5 Nxd5 11.exd5 Nd4 12.Bxd7+ Qxd7 13.Nxe5 Qf5 14.Nd3 O-O-O 15.a4 Rhe8 16.Kh1 g5 17.Be3 Nf3 18.Nxc5 dxc5 19.Rfd1 Re4 20.Qf1 Nd4 21.Qd3 Qe5 22.Bxg5 Re8 23.Bd2 Rh4 24.h3 Qxd5 25.c4 Qc6 26.Qg3 Nf5 27.Qd3 Nd4 28.Qg3 Nf5 29.Qd3  1/2

Seems its high time for me to play against Radjabov and crush him according to the previous analyses  Grin
  
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MNb
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #10 - 04/21/08 at 17:09:02
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Well, I came until 29.h3 and doubted if the queen was stronger than two rooks. I stopped because of long analysis, wrong analysis.  Wink So Black still may hope to survive? If yes, ArkHein might be right. Any other opinions?
  

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Matemax
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #9 - 04/21/08 at 12:56:24
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MNb wrote on 04/20/08 at 21:35:47:
I cannot refute 18...Rf7 19.b5 a5 20.b6 Kb8 21.Qd3 g5 eg
a) 22.Rb5 cxb6 23.Rxb6 Rc8 24.Rab1 Rc7
b) 22.Ra3 cxb6 (Rc8!?) 23.Rab3 Rc8 24.Rxb6 Rc7 25.Qa6 Rxc2.
But I don't really trust Black's play.


21...g5 22.Rb5 cxb6 23.Rxb6 Rc8 24.Rab1 Rc7 (Rc5 should lead to the same position) 25.Qa6 Rxc2 26.Rxb7+ Qxb7 27.Rxb7+ Rxb7 28.Qxd6+ Ka7 29.h3 Rbb2 30.Qe7+ Kb6 31.Qxg5

a) 31...Rxg2+ 32.Qxg2 Rxg2+ 33.Kxg2 e4 34.Kg3 Kc5 35.Kf4 Kxd5 36.Kf5 Kc4 37.Kxe4 Kb3 38.Kd3 Kxa4 39.Kc4

b) 31...Kc5 32.e4 Kb4 33.Kh1 Rd2 34.d6 Rxd6 35.Qe7 Rd2 36.Qxe5 Kxa4 37.Qe8+ Kb4 38.Qe7 Kc3 39.Qc7+ Kb4 40.Qxh7

hope it works  Smiley
  
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ArKheiN
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #8 - 04/21/08 at 06:38:57
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Oops I misread. I believed 17.b4 Rh or Rdf8 18.b5 a5 and now 19.b6 or Black will play b6. Ok I understand Matemax point now. So After 18.Rfb1 there is still Kg8 or Rf7 where White is more active but I don't see anything concrete. I still believe that 10.Nxe5 might be a real refutation if Black can't find a way to equalize.
  
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MNb
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #7 - 04/20/08 at 21:35:47
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Problem with 18...b6? is 19.Qxa6 and 18...Rf7 19.b5 b6? 20.a5! finishes off Black as well. Otherwise ...b6 would indeed solve all Black problems.

I cannot refute 18...Rf7 19.b5 a5 20.b6 Kb8 21.Qd3 g5 eg
a) 22.Rb5 cxb6 23.Rxb6 Rc8 24.Rab1 Rc7
b) 22.Ra3 cxb6 (Rc8!?) 23.Rab3 Rc8 24.Rxb6 Rc7 25.Qa6 Rxc2.
But I don't really trust Black's play.
  

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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #6 - 04/20/08 at 20:43:47
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Matemax said: Quote:
17...Rdf8 (following Radjabov) I would now suggest 18.Rfb1!?.


If White does not play the immediate 18.b6, I think Black would play that move before White and the position seems pretty solid for Black.
And 18.b6 Kb8 might be ok too for Black.

I think the ultimate test of that variation is not 10.Nd5 but 10.Nxe5! where after some deep analysis I have not been able to find a clear equalisation for Black. And it's why Iam very curious to know what Radjabov whould have prepared against that.
« Last Edit: 04/22/08 at 00:30:01 by GMTonyKosten »  
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Matemax
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #5 - 04/20/08 at 14:27:48
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Ender wrote on 04/19/08 at 21:22:28:
20.b6 Kb8!? is computer move (Rybka) How to proceed with attack?

20. ... Kb8 21.Qd3 Rhf8 (21. ... Qf5 22.bxc7+;  21. ... Qd8 22.Rb5 cxb6 23.Rab1) 22.Ra3 cxb6 23.Rab3 Qxa4 24.Rxb6 Qh4 25.h3! +-

are just some ideas - Whites attack seems to be faster in every line - Blacks rooks and queen only look threatening, but white should hold with the simple h3
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #4 - 04/20/08 at 14:14:38
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TopNotch wrote on 04/19/08 at 21:34:03:
There was a discussion of the following sideline in a related thread:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 Nf6 5.0-0 Bc5

I do not remember the consensus from the other thread, but my question is is this line of the Schliemann any worse than Radjabov's current treatment?

Toppy Smiley

I strolled through the other thread but could not find a final conclusion. The principal try has to be 6.ef5 cause the basic idea of 4.d3 is to take on f5 without getting punished by e4. After ef5 white may try to hold the extra pawn or give it back for better play. I also think Ne5 ideas are worth investigating (either this or the next move) - an obvious move is also 6.Bc4 but one should NOT follow the classic and very entertaining game Van Balla - Reti which went:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 fxe4 Nf6 5.O-O Bc5 6.Bc4 d6 7.Ng5 f4 8.Nf7 Qe7 9.Nxh8 Bg4 10.Qd2 Nd4 11.Kh1 Nf3 12.Qa5 Nxe4 13.g3 Nxf2+ 14.Rxf2 Bxf2 15.Kg2 fxg3 16.hxg3 Bxg3 17.Qb5+ c6 18.Qb4 Qh4 19.Bf7+ Ke7 20.Qxb7+ Kf6 Van Balla-Reti, 1918, 0-1

Playing 6.Bc4 its worth exploring 7.ef5 and 7.a3 followed by b4.

I think one of these three approaches should give white a good advantage - I try to find out, but perhaps someone knows this instantly.

But please also try yourself on the current 4.d3 main line - if we crack that one it may be curtains for the Schliemann! Wink
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #3 - 04/19/08 at 21:34:03
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There was a discussion of the following sideline in a related thread:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 Nf6 5.0-0 Bc5

I do not remember the consensus from the other thread, but my question is is this line of the Schliemann any worse than Radjabov's current treatment?

Toppy Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #2 - 04/19/08 at 21:22:28
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20.b6 Kb8!? is computer move (Rybka) How to proceed with attack?
  

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