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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3? (Read 38820 times)
ArKheiN
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #61 - 07/04/08 at 19:13:32
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I want to share you (the forumers) a game I just finished as Black in one of my "pet"line trying to show that Black may "force" draw in that difficult ending a pawn down. Sure, I would not be happy to play that position OTB, and I would have probably lost even against someone of my level with the time pressure. But on corr. Iam not afraid to reach that line and I like the challenge. Iam sure Markovitch will have a look at this game since it's one of the most challenging threat of the Schliemann with 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 d5 etc. But that game is only a brick of the wall...

White: "Mr X"
Black : "ArKheiN"

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 d5 6.Nxe5 dxe4 7.Nxc6 Qg5 8.Qe2 Nf6 9.Nxa7 Bd7 10.Bxd7+ Nxd7 11.f4 Qc5 12.Nb5 Qxc2 13.d3 Bb4+ 14.Kf1 Qxe2+ 15.Kxe2 exd3+ 16.Kxd3 O-O-O 17.Kc4 Bc5 18.Re1 Rhe8 19.Rxe8 Rxe8 20.Bd2 Re2 21.Re1 Nb6+ 22.Kxc5 Rxd2 23.Re7 Rc2+ 24.Kd4 Rxb2 25.Rxc7+ Kd8 26.Rxg7 Rxb5 27.Rxb7 Rb2 28.g4 h6 29.Ke4 Kc8 30.Rh7 Rb4+ 31.Kf5 Nd5 32.Rxh6 Nxf4 33.g5 Nd5 34.a3 Rb3 35.Rh7 Rxa3 36.h4 Ne3+ 37.Ke4 Ng4 38.g6 Nf6+ 39.Kf4 Kd8 40.h5 Ra1 41.Kg5 Ne8 42.Kh6 Nd6 43.Rh8+ Ke7 1/2-1/2
  
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ArKheiN
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #60 - 07/04/08 at 06:31:26
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Your are right, strange that the GM didn't played that simple move where Black get only one pawn for the bishop... The only playable move is 11..Bb6, with a very exciting game for Black where it seems that Black can get a very strong attack and almost (or really?) a winning one (watch the game posted by Matemax on page 3 I think).
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #59 - 07/04/08 at 00:47:27
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[Event "ICC 120 0 u"]
[Site "Internet Chess Club"]
[Date "2008.07.03"]
[Round "-"]
[White "*GM_Ganguly"]
[Black "*GM_Khachiyan"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2729"]
[BlackElo "2568"]
[Opening "Ruy Lopez: Schliemann defense"]
[ECO "C63"]
[NIC "RL.06"]
[Time "16:04:02"]
[TimeControl "7200+0"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 f5 4. d3 fxe4 5. dxe4 Nf6 6. O-O Bc5 7. Qd3 d6 8.Qc4 Qe7 9. b4 Be6 10. Bxc6+ bxc6 11. Qa6 Bxb4 12. Qxc6+ Kf7 13. Ng5+ Kg6 14.Nxe6 Qxe6 15. Nd2 Bc5 16. Nb3 Qd7 17. Qa6 Nxe4 18. Qe2 d5 19. Nxc5 Nxc5 20.Qxe5 Rhe8 21. Qd4 Ne4 22. c4 Nf6 23. cxd5 Qxd5 24. Qc3 Re4 25. Qxc7 Rc4 26.Qg3+ Rg4 27. Qh3 Rb8 28. f3 Qc5+ 29. Kh1 Qb5 30. Bb2 Rb4 31. Bxf6 gxf6 32.
Rac1 Qf5 33. g4 Qg5 34. Rc7 Qh6 35. Qxh6+ Kxh6 36. Kg2 Rb2+ 37. Kg3 R8b7 38.Rc6 R7b6 39. Rc7 Rb7 40. Rxb7 Rxb7 41. Rc1 Rb6 42. h4 Ra6 43. Kf4 Rxa2 44.Rc6 Kg7 45. Rc7+ Kg8 46. Kf5 Ra3 47. f4 Ra5+ 48. Kxf6 Ra6+ 49. Kg5 {White wins} 1-0

Instead of 12.Qxc6+ does anybody know why the obvious 12.Qb7 does not win on the spot?

Toppy Smiley
  

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Matemax
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #58 - 07/03/08 at 11:37:12
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Strategy_Rules wrote on 07/03/08 at 10:17:43:
But isnt 6...d6 interesting from white's point of view if one intends to play 4.d3 ?

6...Bc5 is the principal move (develop a piece) - 6...d6 is passive and only a sideway.

If we dont know where the main road (6...Bc5) leads to we dont have to worry about the sideroad (6...d6).
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #57 - 07/03/08 at 10:17:43
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But isnt 6...d6 interesting from white's point of view if one intends to play 4.d3 ?
  
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ArKheiN
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #56 - 07/02/08 at 22:45:01
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Most people here are more interested about 6..Bc5 until they find it no playable anymore, which is not the case from the "known" analysis at the moment.
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #55 - 07/02/08 at 09:38:07
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Markovich, I do not feel offended ... I just hoped somebody found something strong against 6...d6 and post it here. Because I did not find anything really convincing after this move. If you are not interested about this move its ok, maybe somebody is.
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #54 - 07/01/08 at 13:35:31
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Strategy_Rules wrote on 06/18/08 at 11:22:54:
Quote:
Well since you ask, I will again put forward my often-expressed view that 3...f5 is downright unsound, and not because of 4.d3.


After analysing 3...f5 for a long time I must agree that the Schliemann is completely unsound. Sorry to all Schliemann-lovers Smiley
Well, thats just my view and I dont mind if you do not believe me Wink
In my opinion: 4.Nc3 leads to a clear advantage for white, after 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 Sf6 6.0-0 the best move is 6...d6, after 6...Bc5 black is very close to a lost position (by the way, not only the variation with Qd1-d3-c4 is strong ...  Cool ... )
The question why some very strong GMs failed to refute the Schliemann in their games against Radjabov can have many reasons.
Anyway, this does not mean that the Schliemann cannot be refuted (in the sense of clear advantage for white) of course.


The above was your post, which appears on page 3 of this thread, so far four pages in length.  The thread itself is by no means focussed only on 6 ...d6, but only 4.d3.  Your post is not exactly a request for info about 6...d6, and it mentions much else.  So I don't think that anyone here was impolite to address various aspects of your remark that interested him, without addressing your particular interest in 6...d6.   

You want the thread now to focus only on 6...d6 based on information that you are unwilling to share, and you seem to be offended that no one has followed. 

I don't know about others here, but I am not interested in discussing this move at any length before I understand what's so bad about 6...Bc5, a much more ambitious move which, leaving aside any question of its ultimate merit, accords much better with the spirit of Black's system.  I would not have posted at all to this thread if it's actual topic had been 6...d6.
  

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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #53 - 07/01/08 at 11:22:04
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Yes , who has something against 6...d6 ....
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #52 - 06/30/08 at 19:53:11
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Shocked Who has what now private or not?  Huh
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #51 - 06/30/08 at 10:17:27
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"What's the point of coming to the forum with "I have private analysis that refutes 6...Bc5?"

Isnt that obvious ? I intended you to focus on the variation with 6...d6. But I (again) failed  Sad
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #50 - 06/20/08 at 12:54:01
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Quote:
What do people here suggest for white after 6...d6 in the 4.d3-variation ?

You should know the answer: "I have private analysis that refutes 6...d6"  Grin
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #49 - 06/20/08 at 11:13:35
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ArKheiN wrote on 06/19/08 at 23:09:59:
"First I can just say that in the variation with Bxc6 + Nxe5 black's compensation for the pawn is just insufficient. " How can you be so sure about that? My actual analysis tend to confirm that Black has sufficient compensation for the pawn. But I would't say "they have sufficient compensation for sure" because we can't be sure about that!


We will bandy words here forever unless Strategy Rules puts up some analysis.  What's the point of coming to the forum with "I have private analysis that refutes 6...Bc5?"  Yes, and I have private analysis that refutes the Queen's Gambit.
  

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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #48 - 06/19/08 at 23:09:59
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"First I can just say that in the variation with Bxc6 + Nxe5 black's compensation for the pawn is just insufficient. " How can you be so sure about that? My actual analysis tend to confirm that Black has sufficient compensation for the pawn. But I would't say "they have sufficient compensation for sure" because we can't be sure about that!
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #47 - 06/19/08 at 14:19:13
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I did not say that white is winning after 6...Bc5, only that black is very close to a lost position. That can either mean that white achieves a clear advantage or a position which is in practice very very difficult to defend for black.
First I can just say that in the variation with Bxc6 + Nxe5 black's compensation for the pawn is just insufficient. Of course, if white do not play some more strong moves after Nxe5 he can get problems. But after some more precise moves of white black is really just a pawn down. There exist also a very dangerous idea in the Bg5+Nd5 variation for white, after which at least in an OTB game black's task to defend is almost impossible. That idea was actually proposed by a friend of me who is a GM. So I do not like to publish it here. But I agree that 4.Nc3 is stronger than 4.d3, because after 6...d6 instead of 6...Bc5 white's advantage seems to be not so big like after 4.Nc3. What do people here suggest for white after 6...d6 in the 4.d3-variation ?
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #46 - 06/18/08 at 21:07:55
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Im still waiting to lose as Black against 4.Nc3 fxe4 in a "analytical "game on the forum Smiley
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #45 - 06/18/08 at 13:16:42
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Strategy_Rules wrote on 06/18/08 at 11:22:54:
Quote:
Well since you ask, I will again put forward my often-expressed view that 3...f5 is downright unsound, and not because of 4.d3.


After analysing 3...f5 for a long time I must agree that the Schliemann is completely unsound. Sorry to all Schliemann-lovers Smiley
Well, thats just my view and I dont mind if you do not believe me Wink
In my opinion: 4.Nc3 leads to a clear advantage for white, after 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 Sf6 6.0-0 the best move is 6...d6, after 6...Bc5 black is very close to a lost position (by the way, not only the variation with Qd1-d3-c4 is strong ...  Cool ... )
The question why some very strong GMs failed to refute the Schliemann in their games against Radjabov can have many reasons.
Anyway, this does not mean that the Schliemann cannot be refuted (in the sense of clear advantage for white) of course.


You may be right about 6...Bc5 after 4.d3, but there is nothing here to prove it.  Since there has been quite a bit of sharing of specifics about 4.d3 on this thread already, perhaps you would be good enough to say just how White wins after 6...Bc5?

Until I see something convincing in 4.d3's favor, I will maintain my view that only Nc3 takes full advantage of White's opportunities at move 4, and that 4.d3 is a good move but not one that refutes the Schliemann  -- a view that I defended above with some specific analysis.
  

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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #44 - 06/18/08 at 11:22:54
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Quote:
Well since you ask, I will again put forward my often-expressed view that 3...f5 is downright unsound, and not because of 4.d3.


After analysing 3...f5 for a long time I must agree that the Schliemann is completely unsound. Sorry to all Schliemann-lovers Smiley
Well, thats just my view and I dont mind if you do not believe me Wink
In my opinion: 4.Nc3 leads to a clear advantage for white, after 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 Sf6 6.0-0 the best move is 6...d6, after 6...Bc5 black is very close to a lost position (by the way, not only the variation with Qd1-d3-c4 is strong ...  Cool ... )
The question why some very strong GMs failed to refute the Schliemann in their games against Radjabov can have many reasons.
Anyway, this does not mean that the Schliemann cannot be refuted (in the sense of clear advantage for white) of course.
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #43 - 06/09/08 at 06:20:42
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TopNotch wrote on 06/09/08 at 00:59:32:
Matemax wrote on 06/07/08 at 07:55:03:
TopNotch wrote on 04/19/08 at 21:34:03:
There was a discussion of the following sideline in a related thread:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 Nf6 5.0-0 Bc5

I do not remember the consensus from the other thread, but my question is is this line of the Schliemann any worse than Radjabov's current treatment?

Toppy Smiley

Yearbook 87 arrived - van der Tak writes in the "Forum" about the mentioned line and proposes: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 Nf6 5.ef5 Bf5 6.0-0 0-0 7.Be3 - "Black is not entirely out of trouble yet"

There is also a major article on the d3-Variation "The return of the Jaenisch - Part I" - and the promise to come up with something to 4.Nc3 in Yearbook 88


That looks like an illegal move, perhaps you meant 5...Bc5 instead when the continuation 6.0-0 0-0 7.Be3 Nd4 follows the game Banas - Ivanovic 1979, where White managed to gain a slight advantage and eventually win. However in that game there are improvements for both sides, and I'm still not sure whether this line represents best play for White.

All in all I don't think players on the club level choose the Schliemann to defend the type of positions that are typical after the modern 4.d3

Toppy Smiley


Sorry mistyping:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 Nf6 5.ef5 Bc5 6.0-0 0-0 7.Be3 - "Black is not entirely out of trouble yet"
7...Nd4 8.c3 Nf3 9.Qf3 Be7 (so far following Banas-Ivanovic), but now 10.d4!? (Van der Tak: "an idea given by my computer")

About club-level: The first intention to play 3...f5 is probably the reduction of theory and the avoidance of the exchange variation. But nowadays one is nearly extravagant to play 1...e5 at all - most club players go for semi-open games - again I think due to reducing the amount of theory.
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #42 - 06/09/08 at 00:59:32
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Matemax wrote on 06/07/08 at 07:55:03:
TopNotch wrote on 04/19/08 at 21:34:03:
There was a discussion of the following sideline in a related thread:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 Nf6 5.0-0 Bc5

I do not remember the consensus from the other thread, but my question is is this line of the Schliemann any worse than Radjabov's current treatment?

Toppy Smiley

Yearbook 87 arrived - van der Tak writes in the "Forum" about the mentioned line and proposes: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 Nf6 5.ef5 Bf5 6.0-0 0-0 7.Be3 - "Black is not entirely out of trouble yet"

There is also a major article on the d3-Variation "The return of the Jaenisch - Part I" - and the promise to come up with something to 4.Nc3 in Yearbook 88


That looks like an illegal move, perhaps you meant 5...Bc5 instead when the continuation 6.0-0 0-0 7.Be3 Nd4 follows the game Banas - Ivanovic 1979, where White managed to gain a slight advantage and eventually win. However in that game there are improvements for both sides, and I'm still not sure whether this line represents best play for White.

All in all I don't think players on the club level choose the Schliemann to defend the type of positions that are typical after the modern 4.d3

Toppy Smiley
  

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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #41 - 06/07/08 at 07:55:03
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TopNotch wrote on 04/19/08 at 21:34:03:
There was a discussion of the following sideline in a related thread:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 Nf6 5.0-0 Bc5

I do not remember the consensus from the other thread, but my question is is this line of the Schliemann any worse than Radjabov's current treatment?

Toppy Smiley

Yearbook 87 arrived - van der Tak writes in the "Forum" about the mentioned line and proposes: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 Nf6 5.ef5 Bf5 6.0-0 0-0 7.Be3 - "Black is not entirely out of trouble yet"

There is also a major article on the d3-Variation "The return of the Jaenisch - Part I" - and the promise to come up with something to 4.Nc3 in Yearbook 88
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #40 - 05/14/08 at 00:08:40
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Now I am quoting myself: I said: [quote][Or Black can try something that never has been played yet: 12..0-0!?, a move from Rybka which try to complicate the game with a sharp game but it ends with 2 pawns for Black against a piece, which is better for White...

/quote]
And indeed Mark Noble tryed Rybka's move. The win is spectacular and I had previously analysed that line with Rybka before that game.
In fact I feared the line beginning with 16.h3! instead of 16.gxf3?! where I tought White would get a clear advantage. For example 16.h3 Rxf2 17.hxg4! Rxf1+ 18.Qxf1 exd4 19.Nd2 Rf8 20.Qe2 +/-

But in fact I think there is 16.h3 Nxf2! 17.gxf3 Nxh3+ 18.Kg2 Qh4 or something like that (I have not checked deeply yet but 16..Nxf2 is probably the good move here)where it seems that Black has "at least!" a draw despite the rook down. Wonderful line!! Im happy that it works.
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #39 - 05/13/08 at 13:46:43
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Matemax wrote on 05/13/08 at 11:24:56:
Quote:
There is another line that is promising for White against that move order with 8..Qe7: I feel that 9.b4! is quite strong here, where after the forced sequence 9..Be6 10.Bxc6 bxc6 11.Qa6 Bb6 12.a4, there is a somewhat inferior ending for Black after 12..Nxe4 13.a5 Bxf2+ 14.Rxf3 Nxf2 15.Qxc6+ Kf7 16.Kxf2


Jan Helblich (2520) - Mark Noble (2497)
ICCF Championsleage 2007 B4/Board 1
corr.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 Nf6 6.O-O Bc5 7.Qe2 d6 8.Qc4 Qe7 9.b4 Be6 10.Bxc6+ bxc6 11.Qa6 Bb6 12.a4 O-O 13.a5 Bd4 14.c3 Ng4 15.cxd4 Rxf3 16.gxf3 Qh4 17.h3 Nh2 18.Ra3 Bxh3 19.Qc4+ Kf8 20.Qxc6 Re8 0-1

What a shocker!  Shocked


Nice game.
  

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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #38 - 05/13/08 at 11:24:56
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Quote:
There is another line that is promising for White against that move order with 8..Qe7: I feel that 9.b4! is quite strong here, where after the forced sequence 9..Be6 10.Bxc6 bxc6 11.Qa6 Bb6 12.a4, there is a somewhat inferior ending for Black after 12..Nxe4 13.a5 Bxf2+ 14.Rxf3 Nxf2 15.Qxc6+ Kf7 16.Kxf2


Jan Helblich (2520) - Mark Noble (2497)
ICCF Championsleage 2007 B4/Board 1
corr.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 Nf6 6.O-O Bc5 7.Qe2 d6 8.Qc4 Qe7 9.b4 Be6 10.Bxc6+ bxc6 11.Qa6 Bb6 12.a4 O-O 13.a5 Bd4 14.c3 Ng4 15.cxd4 Rxf3 16.gxf3 Qh4 17.h3 Nh2 18.Ra3 Bxh3 19.Qc4+ Kf8 20.Qxc6 Re8 0-1

What a shocker!  Shocked
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #37 - 05/10/08 at 22:20:48
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I keep my idea to defend 3..f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 d5 6.Nxe5 dxe4 in a or simultaneous games here on the forum. Right, I might be play just to survive in somes lines here but that's a good challenge to me.
I'm just waiting a White player taking the challenge here.
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #36 - 05/10/08 at 10:07:48
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Quote:
As I see it, the queen still needs to remain at home after 25....Qf6 26.h3; Black should play 26...Rd8 (26...Rd7 may amount to the same thing after 27.Qa6 Rff7) 27.Qa6 Rdd7 28.Rc3 (26.Qxa5 carries out your plan but then 26...g4) 28...Rf8.  I am not sure how White makes progress now. 29.Qb5 Qf7 and very soon ...g4.  Or 29.e4 g4 30.hxg4 Qf2+ 31.Kh1 Qd4.  Parenthetically, these lines illustrate the merit of 21...g5.

Maybe you will be able to demonstrate some tactic that I and my silicon buddy here haven't foreseen, but I must say that after 21...g5, I find it difficult to credit a claim of substantial White advantage.  I admit that Black has to strike a careful balance between defense and counterattack.


I agree that g5-ideas may be the right way to look for counterplay and at the moment I have no clear way for white. Perhaps White should place his queen on e2 and then try to improve his position and attack. Anyway I am not sure if this could be solved with analyses (well we are  reaching move 30  Shocked) - but I will certainly try to test the line in praxis. One nice point of whites position is that there are many lines where he can force a draw with a rook sac on b7 followed by checks with the queen - as would be possible after your suggestion 26...Rd8: 27.Rxb7+ Rxb7 28.Rxb7+ Kxb7 29.Qb5 =

I also slightly share your opinion that 4.Nc3 is the main challenge to blacks outraging 3...f5 - but at the moment it looks like Radjabov has taken the fun out of this approach with his Nf6 play. Any ideas there?
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #35 - 05/09/08 at 01:32:12
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Matemax wrote on 05/08/08 at 06:50:38:
Quote:
My thoughts are that Black is fine after 21...g5 instead of 21...Qf5.  He keeps his queen at home and still prepares kingside counterplay.

A. If 22.Rc3 then 22...Kb8 23.Rcb3 c6 24.dxc6 Qxc6 25.Qxc6 bxc6 26.c4 Rf2 27.Rd3 Rc2= or 26.Rd3 Rf2=.

B. 22.e4 Kb8 23.Rab3 Rc8 24.bxc7+ Qxc7 (or 24...Rxc7 25.Qa6 Rf4, for inatance 26.Qd3 Rf7 27.Rb5 Qc8 or 26.Ra5 Rxe4 27.Rxa5 Re1+ 28.Kf2 Rxc2+ 29.Kxe1 Rc1+ 30.Rxc1 axb6 and I think that here the queen can draw against the two rooks because White's king is exposed) 25.Rxb7+ Qxb7 26.Rxb7+ Rxb7 27.Qa6 Rb1+ 28.Kf2 Rxc2+ 29.Kg3 Kc7 30.Qxa5 Rb6 and I am not sure, but I believe the rooks can hold against the queen and pawn.

These ideas are very preliminary, of course.


Just two thoughts:

1) I think White should NOT play e4 (only if forced) cause he takes away this square and disconnects the way to the kingside for his queen

2) Playing bc7 followed by doubling the rooks on the b-file and trying to win the a-pawn is the main plan


Sample line:

21...g5 Markovich 22.Rc3 Kb8 23.bxc7+ Qxc7 24.Qd3 Qd8 25.Rcb3 Qf6 26.h3 Qf2+ 27.Kh1 White now threatens Qa6 with double attack (b7, d6) Rd7 28.Qa6 Rff7 29.Rc3 Qe1+ 30.Rxe1 bxa6 31.Rc6 +/-


As I see it, the queen still needs to remain at home after 25....Qf6 26.h3; Black should play 26...Rd8 (26...Rd7 may amount to the same thing after 27.Qa6 Rff7) 27.Qa6 Rdd7 28.Rc3 (26.Qxa5 carries out your plan but then 26...g4) 28...Rf8.  I am not sure how White makes progress now. 29.Qb5 Qf7 and very soon ...g4.  Or 29.e4 g4 30.hxg4 Qf2+ 31.Kh1 Qd4.  Parenthetically, these lines illustrate the merit of 21...g5.

Maybe you will be able to demonstrate some tactic that I and my silicon buddy here haven't foreseen, but I must say that after 21...g5, I find it difficult to credit a claim of substantial White advantage.  I admit that Black has to strike a careful balance between defense and counterattack.
  

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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #34 - 05/08/08 at 06:50:38
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My thoughts are that Black is fine after 21...g5 instead of 21...Qf5.  He keeps his queen at home and still prepares kingside counterplay.

A. If 22.Rc3 then 22...Kb8 23.Rcb3 c6 24.dxc6 Qxc6 25.Qxc6 bxc6 26.c4 Rf2 27.Rd3 Rc2= or 26.Rd3 Rf2=.

B. 22.e4 Kb8 23.Rab3 Rc8 24.bxc7+ Qxc7 (or 24...Rxc7 25.Qa6 Rf4, for inatance 26.Qd3 Rf7 27.Rb5 Qc8 or 26.Ra5 Rxe4 27.Rxa5 Re1+ 28.Kf2 Rxc2+ 29.Kxe1 Rc1+ 30.Rxc1 axb6 and I think that here the queen can draw against the two rooks because White's king is exposed) 25.Rxb7+ Qxb7 26.Rxb7+ Rxb7 27.Qa6 Rb1+ 28.Kf2 Rxc2+ 29.Kg3 Kc7 30.Qxa5 Rb6 and I am not sure, but I believe the rooks can hold against the queen and pawn.

These ideas are very preliminary, of course.


Just two thoughts:

1) I think White should NOT play e4 (only if forced) cause he takes away this square and disconnects the way to the kingside for his queen

2) Playing bc7 followed by doubling the rooks on the b-file and trying to win the a-pawn is the main plan


Sample line:

21...g5 Markovich 22.Rc3 Kb8 23.bxc7+ Qxc7 24.Qd3 Qd8 25.Rcb3 Qf6 26.h3 Qf2+ 27.Kh1 White now threatens Qa6 with double attack (b7, d6) Rd7 28.Qa6 Rff7 29.Rc3 Qe1+ 30.Rxe1 bxa6 31.Rc6 +/-
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #33 - 05/08/08 at 02:18:53
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Matemax wrote on 04/19/08 at 15:44:51:
Hi my dear chessfriends!

I hope you dont mind that I try to give the 4.d3-Schliemann/Jaenisch another go. GM Tony Kosten discussed Carlsen-Radjabov in the April 2008 update on chesspublishing.com - the core variation (at the moment) for the 4.d3 line:

After the moves:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 Nf6 6.O-O Bc5 7.Qd3 d6 8.Qc4 Qe7 9.Nc3 Bd7 10.Nd5 Nxd5 11.exd5 Nd4 12.Nxd4 Bxd4 13.Bxd7+ Qxd7 14.a4 a6 15.Be3 Bxe3 16.fxe3 O-O-O

In this position Carlsen and before him Topalov played 17.Rf2 against Radjabov.

Having a look at Yearbook 73 I read on page 95 a suggestion from John Shaw: 17.b4

I could not find any games with 17.b4 (chesslive.de) - but I think it is a serious winning try - I put together some sample variations:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 Nf6 6.O-O Bc5 7.Qd3 d6 8.Qc4 Qe7 9.Nc3 Bd7 10.Nd5 Nxd5 11.exd5 Nd4 12.Nxd4 Bxd4 13.Bxd7+ Qxd7 14.a4 a6 15.Be3 Bxe3 16.fxe3 O-O-O 17.b4

This move may look strange at first thougth - why give up the open file? The idea is to avoid further exchanges of pieces and to keep attacking material.

Now what may happen if Black just takes the f-file:
18...Rf7 19.b5 a5 (only move) 20.b6

Lets have a look at two possible continuations:

a) 20...Rhf8 21.Ra3 Qf5 ( 21...h5 22.Rc3 Kb8 23.bxc7+ Qxc7 24.Qd3 Qe7 25.Rcb3±) 22.h3 g5 

What are your thoughts? Where to improve for Black?


My thoughts are that Black is fine after 21...g5 instead of 21...Qf5.  He keeps his queen at home and still prepares kingside counterplay.

A. If 22.Rc3 then 22...Kb8 23.Rcb3 c6 24.dxc6 Qxc6 25.Qxc6 bxc6 26.c4 Rf2 27.Rd3 Rc2= or 26.Rd3 Rf2=.

B. 22.e4 Kb8 23.Rab3 Rc8 24.bxc7+ Qxc7 (or 24...Rxc7 25.Qa6 Rf4, for inatance 26.Qd3 Rf7 27.Rb5 Qc8 or 26.Ra5 Rxe4 27.Rxa5 Re1+ 28.Kf2 Rxc2+ 29.Kxe1 Rc1+ 30.Rxc1 axb6 and I think that here the queen can draw against the two rooks because White's king is exposed) 25.Rxb7+ Qxb7 26.Rxb7+ Rxb7 27.Qa6 Rb1+ 28.Kf2 Rxc2+ 29.Kg3 Kc7 30.Qxa5 Rb6 and I am not sure, but I believe the rooks can hold against the queen and pawn.

These ideas are very preliminary, of course.
  

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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #32 - 05/01/08 at 17:50:43
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Maybe 17..Rhf8 instead of Rdf8 is most precise: in most line it might change nothing but there is an advantage of that move: if the c-file is opened by a bxc7, the d-rook can go to c8 so you have a rook on the c-file and one on the f-file.

For example 27..Rhf8 18.Rfb1 Qf7!?(18..Kc8 and 18..Rf7 might be playable too) 19.b5 a5 20.b6 Kb8 and now, if 21.Qd3 Rc8 and Black should be ok. I really believe on Black's chance to keep the balance in the whole line with 12.Nxd4, but I agree once more that White's play is a little easier than Black's. Hard to win with the Schliemann against the best play by White, only the draw with perfect play should be Black's chance, but that's true for many openings.
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #31 - 05/01/08 at 16:01:55
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Quote:
Here is my idea:

After
17 b4 Rdf8
18 Rfb1

How about 18 ...Qf7

The idea is that after:

19 b5 a5
20 b6

White's d pawn is pinned- so both 20 ...c6 and 20 ...c5 look interesting.

In the ...c5 lines- obviously black's a pawn is quite weak- but if white hunts it down it takes time- and black has counterplay ideas like ...Qxd5, or Qf2+ and xe3 or even maybe h5-h4-h3.
It looks interesting/playable to me.

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This is a nice tactical argument - I tried some lines, and think that White still gets the better play:

18....Qf7 19.b5 a5 20.b6 c6
(20. ... c5 21.Rf1! Qd7 22.Qb5 with the idea Qxb5 23.axb5±)
21.Qg4+
(21.Rb5 ?! Kb8 22.Rxa5 Qf2+ 23.Kh1 Qd2 24.Ra7 Qxd5 leaves the rook offside)
21...Qd7 22.Qd1 Rf5
(22. ... Qf7 23.dxc6+-)
23.Qd2 Rhf8 24.Qxa5 (White has won the a5-pawn, Black has to find counterplay) Kd8☐ 25.Rf1 Ke7 26.Qd2 Rxf1+ 27.Rxf1 Rxf1+ 28.Kxf1 c5 29.a5 Qa4 30.Qd3 ±
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #30 - 05/01/08 at 15:15:27
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Matemax wrote on 05/01/08 at 14:26:41:
Quote:
we don't have to keep debating these same old ideas.

I´m with you! Lets go back to the intention of this thread - 17.b4 in the line with d3 - all those who have a "?" in their head now, please scroll back to the beginning where I put a diagram promoting this idea of John Shaw (at least Yearbook credits this to him) and some lines.

OK - so far no one has really reputed my idea (Beware Teimour, I´ll get you!  Grin) despite some kind contribution from MNb ("long analysis - wrong analysis").

Come on guys - you can do better, or is this the end of the Schliemann? Wink



Here is my idea:

After
17 b4 Rdf8
18 Rfb1

How about 18 ...Qf7

The idea is that after:

19 b5 a5
20 b6

White's d pawn is pinned- so both 20 ...c6 and 20 ...c5 look interesting.

In the ...c5 lines- obviously black's a pawn is quite weak- but if white hunts it down it takes time- and black has counterplay ideas like ...Qxd5, or Qf2+ and xe3 or even maybe h5-h4-h3.
It looks interesting/playable to me.

  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #29 - 05/01/08 at 14:51:27
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A recap for those who are too lazy to scroll back:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 Nf6 6.O-O Bc5 7.Qd3 d6 8.Qc4 Qe7 9.Nc3 Bd7 10.Nd5 Nxd5 11.exd5 Nd4 12.Nxd4 Bxd4 13.Bxd7+ Qxd7 14.a4 a6 15.Be3 Bxe3 16.fxe3 O-O-O 17.b4 Rdf8 18.Rfb1
The starting position of this thread.

Rf7 19.b5 a5 20.b6 Kb8 21.Qd3 g5 22.Rb5 cxb6 23.Rxb6 Rc8 24.Rab1 Rc7
Rc5 should lead to the same position.

25.Qa6 Rxc2 26.Rxb7+ Qxb7 27.Rxb7+ Rxb7 28.Qxd6+ Ka7 29.h3 Rbb2 30.Qe7+ Kb6 31.Qxg5

a) 31...Rxg2+ 32.Qxg2 Rxg2+ 33.Kxg2 e4 34.Kg3 Kc5 35.Kf4 Kxd5 36.Kf5 Kc4 37.Kxe4 Kb3 38.Kd3 Kxa4 39.Kc4

b) 31...Kc5 32.e4 Kb4 33.Kh1 Rd2 34.d6 Rxd6 35.Qe7 Rd2 36.Qxe5 Kxa4 37.Qe8+ Kb4 38.Qe7 Kc3 39.Qc7+ Kb4 40.Qxh7


Most moves are by Matemax, as the expression "long analysis, wrong analysis" only applies to myself.
  

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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #28 - 05/01/08 at 14:26:41
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Quote:
we don't have to keep debating these same old ideas.

I´m with you! Lets go back to the intention of this thread - 17.b4 in the line with d3 - all those who have a "?" in their head now, please scroll back to the beginning where I put a diagram promoting this idea of John Shaw (at least Yearbook credits this to him) and some lines.

OK - so far no one has really reputed my idea (Beware Teimour, I´ll get you!  Grin) despite some kind contribution from MNb ("long analysis - wrong analysis").

Come on guys - you can do better, or is this the end of the Schliemann? Wink
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #27 - 05/01/08 at 13:48:15
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realpolitik wrote on 04/30/08 at 16:34:51:
Quote:
Markovich
  Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #14 - 04/28/08 at 13:10:01 

Well since you ask, I will again put forward my often-expressed view that 3...f5 is downright unsound, and not because of 4.d3.



This seems a rather bold statement to make. I will freely admit to not knowing a whole lot about the Schliemann however in conversation with a strong GM recently the subject of the Schliemann cropped up and he stated that based on an extensive recent study of the opening that he had undertaken he felt that it was very playable for Black. With best play there are some lines where Black can only make a draw but there are also a lot of lines where Black gets nice play. This is a strong GM former competitor in the Candidates and also if someone like Radjabov is willing to venture it against some of the top players I would say that it is doubtful if it is fundamentally unsound.


Well you really should search back on this subject; you'll find convincing argments there that after 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4, both 5...Nf6 and 5...d5 fail rather miserably.  But if your GM friend thinks 3...f5 is so strong, I suggest he take it up. 

If I am proven wrong it wouldn't be the first time, but so far I haven't seen convincing lines of play where Black can hold.

Honestly, someone should put a sticky tag on those old Jaenisch threads so we don't have to keep debating these same old ideas.
  

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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #26 - 04/30/08 at 16:34:51
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Quote:
Markovich
 Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #14 - 04/28/08 at 13:10:01  

Well since you ask, I will again put forward my often-expressed view that 3...f5 is downright unsound, and not because of 4.d3.



This seems a rather bold statement to make. I will freely admit to not knowing a whole lot about the Schliemann however in conversation with a strong GM recently the subject of the Schliemann cropped up and he stated that based on an extensive recent study of the opening that he had undertaken he felt that it was very playable for Black. With best play there are some lines where Black can only make a draw but there are also a lot of lines where Black gets nice play. This is a strong GM former competitor in the Candidates and also if someone like Radjabov is willing to venture it against some of the top players I would say that it is doubtful if it is fundamentally unsound.
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #25 - 04/29/08 at 13:13:31
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A very interesting observation Willempie.  Pick a defence that is not so highly regarded, study it in detail and set your goal as not to lose!

This could be very frustrating for your opponents.  I wonder will Radjabov drop it in time, just before they figure out how to beat him?  Then he can choose a new weapon and do the same!
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #24 - 04/29/08 at 08:28:11
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The King wrote on 04/28/08 at 13:23:42:
Thanks for the response Markovich.  I assume you are referring to 4.Nc3?  I wonder why none of Radjabov's opponents play this?  Surely they have looked at it in their preparation?  

If as you say 3...f5 is downright unsound, then I am a bit dissapointed that Anand, Svidler etc can't refute it!

Maybe they should hire you as a second?

He plays it in a similar way to Kramnik's Bg6 in the Slav or the Berlin: He gives white some advantage but never enough to win.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #23 - 04/28/08 at 19:01:40
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Yes Matemax, he has shown and I agree White has all the winning chance here, but I challenge the White side to win (I am ok to try to defend the Black side on the forum in a game).
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #22 - 04/28/08 at 18:44:41
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Quote:
I don't know what Radjabov has in mind against 4.Nc3, but I think he does play the main alternative to 4..fex4 5.Nxe4 d5

I think he goes 5...Nf6 as played againt Polgar - 5...d5 is just bad as shown by Markovich!
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #21 - 04/28/08 at 17:29:02
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I don't know what Radjabov has in mind against 4.Nc3, but I think he does play the main alternative to 4..fex4 5.Nxe4 d5 etc. Markovich and me had a previous debate on the subject but as I say I still believe that Black can survive here, even in the ending a pawn down (but with insane play).
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #20 - 04/28/08 at 16:22:34
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The King wrote on 04/28/08 at 15:06:55:
I apologise if you took my post as mockery, it was the last thing I would have wanted.  Yours is one of the few names I look for when browsing a thread (Topnotch, Mnb, Willempie and Keano are among the others) as I find your views very interesting.

I assure you my comments were genuine.  I know you are a strong player (2300 or more if I remember correctly).  I am only rated 1730.  I am genuinly interested that you think 4.d3 is not the way to go, yet all the top players keep playing it.  Do you have any views on why this is?

My point was that these guys are seriously strong have plenty of time to prepare for Radjabov yet they are all avoiding 4.Nc3

I do not doubt your view that 3...f5 is downright unsound, as I am not strong enough to challenge your or the top players analysis.  I just find it facinating that this move is being played all the time by Radjabov at this level.

I have only faced it once against a 1400 player and was unable to beat him.  I played 4.d3 and he played a move I couldn't find in Kaufmann's book at move 7 or 8.  I will dig out the game and post it here as soon as I can.

I hope you accept my apology as I have never insulted or mocked anyone on this forum (check my previous posts) and never will.


I'm sorry for having been so touchy.  You're fine.
  

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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #19 - 04/28/08 at 16:20:39
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MNb wrote on 04/28/08 at 16:10:58:
The King wrote on 04/28/08 at 12:52:17:
Sorry to be slightly off topic, but if someone can play a move like 3...f5 repeatedly against the best players in the world and get away with it, does this mean that 3.Bb5 is not necessarily a better move than 3.d4 or 3.Bc4 or 2.d4 or 2.f4 for that matter?


I think it's still too early to contemplate on conclusions like this. While it is true that Radjabov has done a fine job so far, I also feel that a few more tests of critical lines are needed.

Even the Berlin Wall has fallen  Wink
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #18 - 04/28/08 at 16:10:58
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The King wrote on 04/28/08 at 12:52:17:
Sorry to be slightly off topic, but if someone can play a move like 3...f5 repeatedly against the best players in the world and get away with it, does this mean that 3.Bb5 is not necessarily a better move than 3.d4 or 3.Bc4 or 2.d4 or 2.f4 for that matter?


I think it's still too early to contemplate on conclusions like this. While it is true that Radjabov has done a fine job so far, I also feel that a few more tests of critical lines are needed.
  

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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #17 - 04/28/08 at 15:06:55
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I apologise if you took my post as mockery, it was the last thing I would have wanted.  Yours is one of the few names I look for when browsing a thread (Topnotch, Mnb, Willempie and Keano are among the others) as I find your views very interesting.

I assure you my comments were genuine.  I know you are a strong player (2300 or more if I remember correctly).  I am only rated 1730.  I am genuinly interested that you think 4.d3 is not the way to go, yet all the top players keep playing it.  Do you have any views on why this is?

My point was that these guys are seriously strong have plenty of time to prepare for Radjabov yet they are all avoiding 4.Nc3

I do not doubt your view that 3...f5 is downright unsound, as I am not strong enough to challenge your or the top players analysis.  I just find it facinating that this move is being played all the time by Radjabov at this level.

I have only faced it once against a 1400 player and was unable to beat him.  I played 4.d3 and he played a move I couldn't find in Kaufmann's book at move 7 or 8.  I will dig out the game and post it here as soon as I can.

I hope you accept my apology as I have never insulted or mocked anyone on this forum (check my previous posts) and never will.
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #16 - 04/28/08 at 13:33:35
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The King wrote on 04/28/08 at 13:23:42:
Thanks for the response Markovich.  I assume you are referring to 4.Nc3?  I wonder why none of Radjabov's opponents play this?  Surely they have looked at it in their preparation? 

If as you say 3...f5 is downright unsound, then I am a bit dissapointed that Anand, Svidler etc can't refute it!

Maybe they should hire you as a second?


If you want the advice of Anand and Svidler, this is not the place to find them.  If you want the views of those who do post here, I suggest you not return them with mockery.
  

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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #15 - 04/28/08 at 13:23:42
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Thanks for the response Markovich.  I assume you are referring to 4.Nc3?  I wonder why none of Radjabov's opponents play this?  Surely they have looked at it in their preparation? 

If as you say 3...f5 is downright unsound, then I am a bit dissapointed that Anand, Svidler etc can't refute it!

Maybe they should hire you as a second?
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #14 - 04/28/08 at 13:10:01
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The King wrote on 04/28/08 at 12:52:17:
Sorry to be slightly off topic, but if someone can play a move like 3...f5 repeatedly against the best players in the world and get away with it, does this mean that 3.Bb5 is not necessarily a better move than 3.d4 or 3.Bc4 or 2.d4 or 2.f4 for that matter?

If a move like 3...f5 is that good I might have to stop playing 1.e4!

I am half joking about the last part, but I would be interested to know others opinion on this.


Well since you ask, I will again put forward my often-expressed view that 3...f5 is downright unsound, and not because of 4.d3.
  

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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #13 - 04/28/08 at 12:52:17
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Sorry to be slightly off topic, but if someone can play a move like 3...f5 repeatedly against the best players in the world and get away with it, does this mean that 3.Bb5 is not necessarily a better move than 3.d4 or 3.Bc4 or 2.d4 or 2.f4 for that matter?

If a move like 3...f5 is that good I might have to stop playing 1.e4!

I am half joking about the last part, but I would be interested to know others opinion on this.
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #12 - 04/27/08 at 14:16:00
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17.b4 might be an improvment, but I think Radjabov might have analysed this move seriously too and believe in Black's chance to survive here too.

There is another line that is promising for White against that move order with 8..Qe7: I feel that 9.b4! is quite strong here, where after the forced sequence 9..Be6 10.Bxc6 bxc6 11.Qa6 Bb6 12.a4, there is a somewhat inferior ending for Black after 12..Nxe4 13.a5 Bxf2+ 14.Rxf3 Nxf2 15.Qxc6+ Kf7 16.Kxf2

Or Black can try something that never has been played yet: 12..0-0!?, a move from Rybka which try to complicate the game with a sharp game but it ends with 2 pawns for Black against a piece, which is better for White...

If my assesment is correct, I recommand 8..Bd7 instead of 8..Qe7, where the idea with b4 doesn't work now. And now 9.Nc3 often transpose with 9..Qe7 where 9.b4 has been avoided. But if White want to "refute" that move order, there is 9.Bxc6 Bxc6 10.Nxe5 Bxf2+ 11.Rxf2 dxe5 12.Nc3 Qe7 13.Be3 Qf7 where I believe Black have equality (but still maybe easier to play for White).
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #11 - 04/27/08 at 12:05:21
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New adventures in the Schliemann played at BAKU 2008:

Mamedyarov-Radjabov:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 Nf6 6.O-O Bc5 7.Qd3 d6 8.Qc4 Qe7 9.Nc3 Bd7 10.Nd5 Nxd5 11.exd5 Nd4 12.Bxd7+ Qxd7 13.Nxe5 Qf5 14.Nd3 O-O-O 15.a4 Rhe8 16.Kh1 g5 17.Be3 Nf3 18.Nxc5 dxc5 19.Rfd1 Re4 20.Qf1 Nd4 21.Qd3 Qe5 22.Bxg5 Re8 23.Bd2 Rh4 24.h3 Qxd5 25.c4 Qc6 26.Qg3 Nf5 27.Qd3 Nd4 28.Qg3 Nf5 29.Qd3  1/2

Seems its high time for me to play against Radjabov and crush him according to the previous analyses  Grin
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #10 - 04/21/08 at 17:09:02
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Well, I came until 29.h3 and doubted if the queen was stronger than two rooks. I stopped because of long analysis, wrong analysis.  Wink So Black still may hope to survive? If yes, ArkHein might be right. Any other opinions?
  

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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #9 - 04/21/08 at 12:56:24
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MNb wrote on 04/20/08 at 21:35:47:
I cannot refute 18...Rf7 19.b5 a5 20.b6 Kb8 21.Qd3 g5 eg
a) 22.Rb5 cxb6 23.Rxb6 Rc8 24.Rab1 Rc7
b) 22.Ra3 cxb6 (Rc8!?) 23.Rab3 Rc8 24.Rxb6 Rc7 25.Qa6 Rxc2.
But I don't really trust Black's play.


21...g5 22.Rb5 cxb6 23.Rxb6 Rc8 24.Rab1 Rc7 (Rc5 should lead to the same position) 25.Qa6 Rxc2 26.Rxb7+ Qxb7 27.Rxb7+ Rxb7 28.Qxd6+ Ka7 29.h3 Rbb2 30.Qe7+ Kb6 31.Qxg5

a) 31...Rxg2+ 32.Qxg2 Rxg2+ 33.Kxg2 e4 34.Kg3 Kc5 35.Kf4 Kxd5 36.Kf5 Kc4 37.Kxe4 Kb3 38.Kd3 Kxa4 39.Kc4

b) 31...Kc5 32.e4 Kb4 33.Kh1 Rd2 34.d6 Rxd6 35.Qe7 Rd2 36.Qxe5 Kxa4 37.Qe8+ Kb4 38.Qe7 Kc3 39.Qc7+ Kb4 40.Qxh7

hope it works  Smiley
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #8 - 04/21/08 at 06:38:57
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Oops I misread. I believed 17.b4 Rh or Rdf8 18.b5 a5 and now 19.b6 or Black will play b6. Ok I understand Matemax point now. So After 18.Rfb1 there is still Kg8 or Rf7 where White is more active but I don't see anything concrete. I still believe that 10.Nxe5 might be a real refutation if Black can't find a way to equalize.
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #7 - 04/20/08 at 21:35:47
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Problem with 18...b6? is 19.Qxa6 and 18...Rf7 19.b5 b6? 20.a5! finishes off Black as well. Otherwise ...b6 would indeed solve all Black problems.

I cannot refute 18...Rf7 19.b5 a5 20.b6 Kb8 21.Qd3 g5 eg
a) 22.Rb5 cxb6 23.Rxb6 Rc8 24.Rab1 Rc7
b) 22.Ra3 cxb6 (Rc8!?) 23.Rab3 Rc8 24.Rxb6 Rc7 25.Qa6 Rxc2.
But I don't really trust Black's play.
  

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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #6 - 04/20/08 at 20:43:47
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Matemax said: Quote:
17...Rdf8 (following Radjabov) I would now suggest 18.Rfb1!?.


If White does not play the immediate 18.b6, I think Black would play that move before White and the position seems pretty solid for Black.
And 18.b6 Kb8 might be ok too for Black.

I think the ultimate test of that variation is not 10.Nd5 but 10.Nxe5! where after some deep analysis I have not been able to find a clear equalisation for Black. And it's why Iam very curious to know what Radjabov whould have prepared against that.
« Last Edit: 04/22/08 at 00:30:01 by GMTonyKosten »  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #5 - 04/20/08 at 14:27:48
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Ender wrote on 04/19/08 at 21:22:28:
20.b6 Kb8!? is computer move (Rybka) How to proceed with attack?

20. ... Kb8 21.Qd3 Rhf8 (21. ... Qf5 22.bxc7+;  21. ... Qd8 22.Rb5 cxb6 23.Rab1) 22.Ra3 cxb6 23.Rab3 Qxa4 24.Rxb6 Qh4 25.h3! +-

are just some ideas - Whites attack seems to be faster in every line - Blacks rooks and queen only look threatening, but white should hold with the simple h3
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #4 - 04/20/08 at 14:14:38
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TopNotch wrote on 04/19/08 at 21:34:03:
There was a discussion of the following sideline in a related thread:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 Nf6 5.0-0 Bc5

I do not remember the consensus from the other thread, but my question is is this line of the Schliemann any worse than Radjabov's current treatment?

Toppy Smiley

I strolled through the other thread but could not find a final conclusion. The principal try has to be 6.ef5 cause the basic idea of 4.d3 is to take on f5 without getting punished by e4. After ef5 white may try to hold the extra pawn or give it back for better play. I also think Ne5 ideas are worth investigating (either this or the next move) - an obvious move is also 6.Bc4 but one should NOT follow the classic and very entertaining game Van Balla - Reti which went:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 fxe4 Nf6 5.O-O Bc5 6.Bc4 d6 7.Ng5 f4 8.Nf7 Qe7 9.Nxh8 Bg4 10.Qd2 Nd4 11.Kh1 Nf3 12.Qa5 Nxe4 13.g3 Nxf2+ 14.Rxf2 Bxf2 15.Kg2 fxg3 16.hxg3 Bxg3 17.Qb5+ c6 18.Qb4 Qh4 19.Bf7+ Ke7 20.Qxb7+ Kf6 Van Balla-Reti, 1918, 0-1

Playing 6.Bc4 its worth exploring 7.ef5 and 7.a3 followed by b4.

I think one of these three approaches should give white a good advantage - I try to find out, but perhaps someone knows this instantly.

But please also try yourself on the current 4.d3 main line - if we crack that one it may be curtains for the Schliemann! Wink
  
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #3 - 04/19/08 at 21:34:03
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There was a discussion of the following sideline in a related thread:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 Nf6 5.0-0 Bc5

I do not remember the consensus from the other thread, but my question is is this line of the Schliemann any worse than Radjabov's current treatment?

Toppy Smiley
  

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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #2 - 04/19/08 at 21:22:28
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20.b6 Kb8!? is computer move (Rybka) How to proceed with attack?
  

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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #1 - 04/19/08 at 20:26:27
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In line a) 21...Kb8 looks more stubborn, but White may try 21.Rb5 eg Qf5 22.h3 Qf2+ 23.Kh2 Qxe3 24.Rf1! 1-0.

17.b4 looks nasty to me. It seems that I have to change my opinion that 4.Nc3 is superior to 4.d3 - after both White might prove an advantage! The line I recommended before - 4.d3 Nf6 5.0-0 fxe4 6.dxe4 - only transposes.
  

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Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
04/19/08 at 15:44:51
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Hi my dear chessfriends!

I hope you dont mind that I try to give the 4.d3-Schliemann/Jaenisch another go. GM Tony Kosten discussed Carlsen-Radjabov in the April 2008 update on chesspublishing.com - the core variation (at the moment) for the 4.d3 line:

After the moves:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 Nf6 6.O-O Bc5 7.Qd3 d6 8.Qc4 Qe7 9.Nc3 Bd7 10.Nd5 Nxd5 11.exd5 Nd4 12.Nxd4 Bxd4 13.Bxd7+ Qxd7 14.a4 a6 15.Be3 Bxe3 16.fxe3 O-O-O

we reach an important position:

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

In this position Carlsen and before him Topalov played 17.Rf2 against Radjabov.

Having a look at Yearbook 73 I read on page 95 a suggestion from John Shaw: 17.b4

I could not find any games with 17.b4 (chesslive.de) - but I think it is a serious winning try - I put together some sample variations:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 Nf6 6.O-O Bc5 7.Qd3 d6 8.Qc4 Qe7 9.Nc3 Bd7 10.Nd5 Nxd5 11.exd5 Nd4 12.Nxd4 Bxd4 13.Bxd7+ Qxd7 14.a4 a6 15.Be3 Bxe3 16.fxe3 O-O-O 17.b4

17...Rdf8 (following Radjabov) I would now suggest 18.Rfb1!?.

This move may look strange at first thougth - why give up the open file? The idea is to avoid further exchanges of pieces and to keep attacking material.

Now what may happen if Black just takes the f-file:
18...Rf7 19.b5 a5 (only move) 20.b6

Lets have a look at two possible continuations:

a) 20...Rhf8 21.Ra3 Qf5 ( 21...h5 22.Rc3 Kb8 23.bxc7+ Qxc7 24.Qd3 Qe7 25.Rcb3±) 22.h3 g5 23.Rc3 g4 24.Qxg4 Qxg4 25.hxg4 Kb8 26.Kh2 Rg8 27.bxc7+ Rxc7 28.Rxc7 Kxc7 29.Kh3+̳

b) 20...Qf5? 21.Rf1 Qd7 22.Rxf7 Qxf7 23.Rf1 Qd7 24.Qc3±

What are your thoughts? Where to improve for Black?
« Last Edit: 04/19/08 at 19:01:00 by Matemax »  
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