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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 6.Be2 against Scheve & Najd beginner question (Read 10340 times)
chk
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Re: 6.Be2 against Scheve & Najd beginner question
Reply #27 - 05/05/08 at 09:51:49
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A bit late as usual to answer:

Gerbarts wrote on 05/02/08 at 15:44:34:
I know very little of the strategy for both players in this position. It seems natural to play f4-f5 when the bishop has gone to e6. Against this black usually seems to play Qc7 and Bc4 (10.f4 Qc7 11.f5 Bc4). I suppose whites task here is to control the centre square d5 so why not take the bishop 12.Bxc4 Qxc4 13.Qf3 But it might be better to play 12.a4 before taking the bishop.

Most of the time I come across this idea but according databases it is more common to take on f4 10...exf4 11.Rxf4 I suppose I should occupy d5 by Nc3 and perhaps play Nd4 back again to exchange it off now that there is no pawn on e5. But I don't feel there is a straightforward plan for white (or is there?).


Black usually counters the f4-f5 idea in 3 ways:
a) Prefers developing with b5 and Bb7 (controlling d5 & pressurising the e4 pawn). However, I hasten to add that developing the Bishop at e6 seems more natural as it costs 1 tempo less and also controls a few additional important squares (like f5 and c4). Black also avoids the undermining thrust a2-a4, which can be a real threat if White has still a stable K-side (i.e. before the weakening f2-f4).
b) Counters f4-f5 with Qc7 & Bc4 as you mention (this is the old-fashioned way, but it always worked well for me Cool). If you manage to keep your Knights (e.g. play the protective h6 if appropriate), d5 remains under control.
c) Another way is to postpone Nb8's development. White plays f4 you counter with exf4, White recaptures (Rxf4 as you mention or with Bxf4) and then you play Nc6. Nc6 covers d4, else White can harass your Be6 with Nd4. So, this is an important idea before deciding on e5xf4.

Moreover, a simple rule of thumb regarding when to play a4 as White is this one: a2-a4 weakens the square b4 which Black may take advantage of with the manoeuvre Nb8-Nc6-Nb4 (controlling d5 amongst other). So, as White you may wish to wait until Black plays first Nbd7 and then continue with your planned a4.

I also agree with the games and ideas given by the other posters. Karpov's 2 most impressive (for me) ideas were a) to play Rfd1 and a Knight manoeuvre Nb3-Nc1-Na2-Nb4 and take control of d5 (see Karpov-Nunn), and b) to alter the Q-side pawn structure with Rfc1 and a timely Nd5 (recapturing with the e4-pawn) (see Karpov-Portisch). Svidler mentions another strange White Knight manoeuvre while commenting on his recent game with Adams (check out this link: http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=4600). See also Radjabov-Shirov (2008) if you like the idea mentioned above by 'MartinC' with Bg5xNf6.

Playing this system with Black or White is interesting as it is sometimes difficult to find a plan, but you get a chance to play chess.. Cool
  

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Re: 6.Be2 against Scheve & Najd beginner question
Reply #26 - 05/04/08 at 14:59:12
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By the way, one book that is useful for the Be2 Schev is (Czech GM) Vlastimil Jansa's "Dynamics of Chess Strategy."  Today David Navara as Black played according to a recipe by Jansa (his former trainer) in defeating Radjabov.  The stuff in Jansa's book is not all from a Black perspective, though.

One book that comes to mind for the Be2 Naj is (Spanish GM) Alfonso Romero's "Creative Chess Strategy."  The f4 stuff used to be the standard (e.g. Karpov in the '70s).  As for the line White played in Adams-Svidler, the most classic game (from White's perspective) is surely Karpov-Nunn from about 1985.  Among more recent Be2 Naj games, I like Short-Bu (which involves the same line as in Karpov-Nunn and Adams-Svidler) and the already-mentioned Short-Cheparinov.
  
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Re: 6.Be2 against Scheve & Najd beginner question
Reply #25 - 05/03/08 at 10:17:03
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See Yearbook 62 for some coverage of 12.a5 - this manuscript contains everything you need to know to play the variation with either colour.
  

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Re: 6.Be2 against Scheve & Najd beginner question
Reply #24 - 05/02/08 at 16:10:02
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From what I've seen it's natural for white to try f4 here but after ef etc it's certainly not that easy for him to play. I've seen several games where reasonable white players failed to find a plan and lost quite easily after this start.

You might do better looking into plans where white doesn't try f4 but plays on the queenside instead. Something like Adams - Svidler from the 8th round of the current Fide grand prix or Short - Chepinariov from this years Wijk. As MNb mentioned Geller/Karpov are where it's at historically Smiley

While playing this way can require some real sophistication (the Adams game baffles me somewhat) it does at least give you a clear plan to follow if black wastes time.

Maybe the 8 Bg5 x f6 system is worth looking into - you just trade on f6 to pressure d6/camp on d5. It's perhaps not all that dangerous objectively but it is quite safe and easy to play.
  
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Re: 6.Be2 against Scheve & Najd beginner question
Reply #23 - 05/02/08 at 15:52:43
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By all means study the games of Karpov and Geller with 5...a6 6.Be2 e5. These two were experts with this system.
  

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Re: 6.Be2 against Scheve & Najd beginner question
Reply #22 - 05/02/08 at 15:44:34
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Chevalier wrote on 05/02/08 at 07:19:45:
I am surprised to find that in the main line 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cd4 4.Nd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be2 e6 7.0-0 Be7 8.Be3 0-0 9.f4 Nc6 10.a4 Qc7 11.Kh1 Re8, there is no mention of Kuzmin's 12.a5!. As far as I know, White receives more than enough compensation for the two pawns after 12...Na5 13.e5! de5 14.fe5 Qe5 15.Bf4 Qc5 16.Na4 Qa7 17.Bc7.


Interesting! But what happens after 17...Nc6? I don't think I would personally want to play this for white with two pawns down.

Quote:
I believe you are about to face lots of 6.Be2 e5 in real games. It's a set-up that is easier to grasp than the e6 set-ups which I find more sophisticated. The Black player avoids some difficult decisions like if & when to opt for e5 and also how to manoeuvre his/her pieces with such a fluid centre. So, ... e5 is a good system to apply even if you are a relatively new Sicilian player.

Now, which one is better? I think they are both very reliable, let's say the e6 set-up may prove more flexible for an experienced and well-versed player. I personally play e5 against both 6. Be2 and the English attack (after 6. Be3).

Again strictly in my opinion when playing the Najdorf I find hard to face - in this order:
a) 6. Bg5 (by far) - but this is for aggressive players & requires a lot of study
b) 6. Bc4 - this is for aggressive players as well,
c) 6. Be2 or 6. Be3,
d) 6. h3 or 6. g3 or 6. a4 or 6. f4 (6. Bd3 usually transposes to that system) or 6. Rg1

All () of the above systems can be dangerous, but if you are a positional player who likes piece manoeuvring before the actual battle starts (this is a wild guess judging from your past with 1. Nf3), then I think 6. Be2 is best for you. Bare in mind though that it is quite sophisticated and you'll need time & practice to get a good understanding of the typical positions both against 6. ... e6 and 6. ... e5.


Thanks you for the great summary. Indeed I think my move is 6.Be2 because I hope to transpose to the classical Scheveningen with it.

Here are two positions from 6.Be2 e5 line:
1. e4 c5   2. Nf3 d6   3. d4 cxd4   4. Nxd4 Nf6   5. Nc3 a6   6. Be2 e5   7. Nb3 Be7   8. O-O O-O   9. Be3 Be6 
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


I know very little of the strategy for both players in this position. It seems natural to play f4-f5 when the bishop has gone to e6. Against this black usually seems to play Qc7 and Bc4 (10.f4 Qc7 11.f5 Bc4). I suppose whites task here is to control the centre square d5 so why not take the bishop 12.Bxc4 Qxc4 13.Qf3 But it might be better to play 12.a4 before taking the bishop.

Most of the time I come across this idea but according databases it is more common to take on f4 10...exf4 11.Rxf4 I suppose I should occupy d5 by Nc3 and perhaps play Nd4 back again to exchange it off now that there is no pawn on e5. But I don't feel there is a straightforward plan for white (or is there?).
  
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chk
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Re: 6.Be2 against Scheve & Najd beginner question
Reply #21 - 05/02/08 at 09:06:47
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Sorry everyone to interrupt this interesting discussion in the Scheveningen, as I just read this question:

Gerbarts wrote on 04/30/08 at 20:16:51:
Chk, do you think 6.Be2 e5 is at all challenging for black in the Najdorf? Personally, from the blitz games that I have played, I feel like it doesnt give white much. But then again I know nothing how to play against Qc7, Bc4... I am totally lost there. I will have to study this too if I want to play it.
What do you personally think is a difficult line against the najdorf btw?

I believe you are about to face lots of 6.Be2 e5 in real games. It's a set-up that is easier to grasp than the e6 set-ups which I find more sophisticated. The Black player avoids some difficult decisions like if & when to opt for e5 and also how to manoeuvre his/her pieces with such a fluid centre. So, ... e5 is a good system to apply even if you are a relatively new Sicilian player.

Now, which one is better? I think they are both very reliable, let's say the e6 set-up may prove more flexible for an experienced and well-versed player. I personally play e5 against both 6. Be2 and the English attack (after 6. Be3).

Again strictly in my opinion when playing the Najdorf I find hard to face - in this order:
a) 6. Bg5 (by far) - but this is for aggressive players & requires a lot of study
b) 6. Bc4 - this is for aggressive players as well,
c) 6. Be2 or 6. Be3,
d) 6. h3 or 6. g3 or 6. a4 or 6. f4 (6. Bd3 usually transposes to that system) or 6. Rg1

All (Shocked) of the above systems can be dangerous, but if you are a positional player who likes piece manoeuvring before the actual battle starts (this is a wild guess judging from your past with 1. Nf3), then I think 6. Be2 is best for you. Bare in mind though that it is quite sophisticated and you'll need time & practice to get a good understanding of the typical positions both against 6. ... e6 and 6. ... e5.
  

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Re: 6.Be2 against Scheve & Najd beginner question
Reply #20 - 05/02/08 at 07:19:45
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I am surprised to find that in the main line 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cd4 4.Nd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be2 e6 7.0-0 Be7 8.Be3 0-0 9.f4 Nc6 10.a4 Qc7 11.Kh1 Re8, there is no mention of Kuzmin's 12.a5!. As far as I know, White receives more than enough compensation for the two pawns after 12...Na5 13.e5! de5 14.fe5 Qe5 15.Bf4 Qc5 16.Na4 Qa7 17.Bc7.
  

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Re: 6.Be2 against Scheve & Najd beginner question
Reply #19 - 05/01/08 at 17:21:14
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Yes, definetly books are useful and I wish I had the money to buy every book I wanted. There are not liberarys with chess books where I live either and you have to keep in mind that I have only played 1.e4 as white for less than a month and have never played 1.e4 in a tournament game yet. I competely get your point of studying books and with time I am sure I will invest in one. That does not however discourage me from learning about this opening by asking here at the chesspub.
  
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Re: 6.Be2 against Scheve & Najd beginner question
Reply #18 - 05/01/08 at 17:07:42
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Gerbarts wrote on 05/01/08 at 00:12:31:
I think you are wrong if you think I refered to any blitz games as proof of anything. However, I think blitz is a great way to try out new things. In my opinion the best way to learn a new opening in fact is by 'doing and asking' repeatedly. This thread for example and the help from LeRoth, Chk, Mnb and others have been very helpful. When I come across more questions I will post them here and hopefully this can be a good resource for anyone else like me who is a beginner aswell.

I shall annotate the games between Karpov and Kasparov that LeRoth posted about. Perhaps it can start an interesting discussion.


I didn't say you said that blitz games "prove anything."  But, sorry, this is all a bit amusing.  You come on and say "I'm not sure I understand all ideas fully" (and ask questions like, what is a good line against the Najdorf, is 6. Be2 challenging against the Najdorf etc.).  You mention blitz but nothing about books you've studied or tournament games you've played.  When people mention some of the most well-known games with the system in question, you apparently haven't heard of any of them.  But you're going to look them up and annotate them yourself.

By the way, 12. e5 in Ljubo-Andersson has generally been considered premature for a long time; 12. Kh1 has been the most favored move in recent years.  An early a4 would have been quite out of place in such a Taimanov/Paulsen move order, and ...b5 by Black there is generally answered by Nxc6.
  
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Re: 6.Be2 against Scheve & Najd beginner question
Reply #17 - 05/01/08 at 14:40:39
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Gerbarts wrote on 05/01/08 at 13:48:10:
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6
I don't know the practical means of this move order, perhaps someone else can explain.


When the Scheveningen was played for the first time (by Max Euwe), the move order still was not established, as everybody played the Open Sicilian with Be2. So we get:
I) 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 6.Be2 e6. These days Black usually plays 6...e5 while 6.Bg5 and 6.Bc4 are thought more challenging than 6.Be2.
II) 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be2 e6. This move order was preferred by Gary Kasparov ao. White has some sharp deviations: 6.Bg5, 6.Bc4.
III) 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e6 is what we call Scheveningen today, though it is historically incorrect. Previous generations (eg Pachman) only recognize 6.Be2 Nc6 as the Scheveningen Defence. Kasparov used to play this as Black before switching to the Najdorf, but suffered against Karpov in 1984 after 6.g4! the Keres Attack.
IV) The moveorder played by Andersson avoids all this sharp stuff. Apparently he did not mind meeting 5.Nb5.
V) The list of move orders is not complete. White can use it to limit his repertoire.

Gerbarts wrote on 05/01/08 at 13:48:10:
5.Nc3 Qc7 6.Be2 a6 7.O-O Nf6 8.Be3 Be7 9.f4 d6

After this we reach the starting position in the Scheveningen. White has not taken time to play a4 since he does not believe this is necessary. Mnb notes in this thread " As a general rule Black only can think about ...b5 after castling." The reason for this however I have still got to investigate.

As is clear from that Smyslov-Kottnauer game the reason is x...b5 y.Bf3 with the threat z.e5. There is also a game Karpov-Ljubojevic in which the former WCh once again proves to be a very fine attacking player.
  

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Re: 6.Be2 against Scheve & Najd beginner question
Reply #16 - 05/01/08 at 13:57:09
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I'm going to find some games where black plays b5 to see what I think. If you have any instructive games post them and I'll analyse them here.
  
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Re: 6.Be2 against Scheve & Najd beginner question
Reply #15 - 05/01/08 at 13:48:10
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I decided to quickly look at the game you suggested. I agree Andersson is a very good defender but he had a very difficult task. Ljubojeciv played excellently. I don't have chessbase at the moment where I am so you'll have to enter the game and simply follow the annotations.

[Site "Wijk aan Zee"]
[Date "1976.??.??"]
[Result "1-0"]
[White "Ljubomir Ljubojevic"]
[Black "Ulf Andersson"]
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6
I don't know the practical means of this move order, perhaps someone else can explain.


5.Nc3 Qc7 6.Be2 a6 7.O-O Nf6 8.Be3 Be7 9.f4 d6

After this we reach the starting position in the Scheveningen. White has not taken time to play a4 since he does not believe this is necessary. Mnb notes in this thread " As a general rule Black only can think about ...b5 after castling." The reason for this however I have still got to investigate.

10.Qe1 O-O

I'm not sure what the general rules are regarding  ...e5 by black and f5 by white. In this position 10...e5 can be met by 11.fxe fxe and the knight can go to f5 or white can play 12.Qg3 So at this point I think e5 for black is not especially good, it opens the files for whites pieces unjustified.

11.Qg3 Bd7 12.e5

This pawn sac gives white a lot of initiative. However, after having seen this game I was thinking about 12.Rad1 instead. The idea is simply to keep the tension and prepare for e5. I think black must play ...e5 here to prevent 13.e5 by white. For instance 12...b5 (seems logical) 13.e5 dxe5 14.fxe5 Nxe5 15.Bf4 Bd6 16.Nb3 followed by Rxd6. And, 13...Ne8 should be progress for white in my opinion.

I like 12.e5 very much though since the position gets very sharp after this.

dxe5 13.fxe5 Nxe5 14.Bf4 Bd6 15.Rad1

Threatening Nb3 and Rxd6 winning back material. Everything seems quite forced and Im not going to look for better moves.


Qb8 16.Rd3 Ne8 17.Ne4 Bc7 18.Rc3 Nc6
19.Bxc7 Nxd4 20.Bd3 Qa7 21.Nc5 Bb5 22.Be5 Nc6 23.Bxh7+


Very nice! The reason this works is because of whites piece superiority on the kingside and there is little need to caluclate it out.

Kxh724.Rf4 f6 25.Rh4+ Kg8 26.Qh3 Nd8 27.Bd4 b6 28.Nxe6 Nxe6
29.Qxe6+ Qf7 30.Qe4 g5


I think this is the decisive mistake. Instead black could probably have played 30...Qxa2  giving luft for the king, and if 31.Qxa8 then white has a perpetual check with 31...Qa1+ 32.Kf2 Qf1+

If 31.Qh7 Kf7 32.Qh5+ Kg8 and I can't see a continuation for white.

31.Rh6 Ra7 32.Rch3 Qg7 33.Rg6 Raf7
34.a4 1-0
« Last Edit: 05/01/08 at 17:09:19 by Gerbarts »  
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Re: 6.Be2 against Scheve & Najd beginner question
Reply #14 - 05/01/08 at 09:19:09
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You may wanna check this out, it is annotated in the "art of analysis" and also by Speelman. It basically gives a very good idea of how to play Qe1 (Ljubo doesnt waste time with preparations, but just blindly goes for the field e5) and against it (Andersson's defense is very good).

[Site "Wijk aan Zee"]
[Date "1976.??.??"]
[Result "1-0"]
[White "Ljubomir Ljubojevic"]
[Black "Ulf Andersson"]
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 5.Nc3 Qc7 6.Be2 a6 7.O-O
Nf6 8.Be3 Be7 9.f4 d6 10.Qe1 O-O 11.Qg3 Bd7 12.e5 dxe5 13.fxe5
Nxe5 14.Bf4 Bd6 15.Rad1 Qb8 16.Rd3 Ne8 17.Ne4 Bc7 18.Rc3 Nc6
19.Bxc7 Nxd4 20.Bd3 Qa7 21.Nc5 Bb5 22.Be5 Nc6 23.Bxh7+ Kxh7
24.Rf4 f6 25.Rh4+ Kg8 26.Qh3 Nd8 27.Bd4 b6 28.Nxe6 Nxe6
29.Qxe6+ Qf7 30.Qe4 g5 31.Rh6 Ra7 32.Rch3 Qg7 33.Rg6 Raf7
34.a4 1-0
  

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Re: 6.Be2 against Scheve & Najd beginner question
Reply #13 - 05/01/08 at 00:12:31
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I think you are wrong if you think I refered to any blitz games as proof of anything. However, I think blitz is a great way to try out new things. In my opinion the best way to learn a new opening in fact is by 'doing and asking' repeatedly. This thread for example and the help from LeRoth, Chk, Mnb and others have been very helpful. When I come across more questions I will post them here and hopefully this can be a good resource for anyone else like me who is a beginner aswell.

I shall annotate the games between Karpov and Kasparov that LeRoth posted about. Perhaps it can start an interesting discussion.
  
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