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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Ragozin? (Read 10622 times)
MNb
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Re: Ragozin?
Reply #18 - 05/13/08 at 01:09:25
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alumbrado wrote on 05/12/08 at 15:02:47:

My understanding is that the Westphalia was the ship which carried a lot of the players from Europe to New York for the tournament, and it was on this passage that they analysed this variation.

This is correct. But only Spielmann and Vidmar analysed it; Nimzowitsch (also on the boat) was not involved. This explains why S and V tried it in the first round. The anecdote is to be found in Michael's Ehn book on Spielmann.

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bb4 is possible indeed, but what about 6.e3 ?
I am afraid the most logical combinination is the Ragozin/Manhattan with the NID: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 (3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Nf3 d5) d5 4.Nc3 Bb4 (Nbd7 5.Bg5 Bb4) 5.Bg5 (5.cxd5 exd5 6.Bg5 Nbd7) Nbd7.
  

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Re: Ragozin?
Reply #17 - 05/12/08 at 17:52:20
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MNb wrote on 05/12/08 at 11:47:40:
As White usually exchanges on d5 at some point indeed 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Nf3 Nbd7 6.Bg5 Bb4 transposes without any problem. Point is though that an early ...Bf5 is known as an easy equalizer.
I don't know Flear's article, but I can't help being under the impression that 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 Bb4 6.Nge2 favours White compared to the NID.
The Manhattan has not as good a reputation as other options for Black.


I suspect that this largely answers my question--thank you, MNb.  If White has brought his/her knight to f3, then Bb4 is on.  If not, Nge2 is possible.  I think, though, I would want to transpose the two variations, though:

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Nf3 Bb4 6.Bg5 (which is a Ragozin proper, and presumably can be reached via the Kasparov NID).

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bb4
  

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HgMan
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Re: Ragozin?
Reply #16 - 05/12/08 at 17:45:36
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Thank you all.  Westphalia and Manhattan: same thing, involving an early Nbd7.  The Ragozin differs insofar as Black opts for ...h6 first in order to kick the bishop.  Surely, however, they all qualify as part of the same Ragozin "system."  At least that's the way that Ruslan has organized the e-book.

My question arises from a stubborn desire to open with 1...d5 and yet avoid the Exchange QGD or feint Cambridge Springs before settling for the Westphalia/Manhattan...
  

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Re: Ragozin?
Reply #15 - 05/12/08 at 15:28:15
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I too thought that the Westphalia and the Manhattan were the same -- wasn't the S.S. Westphalia the name of the ship that many of the participants took to get to the New York 1927 tourney?  In one version of the story, some of the players analyzed the variation on the way over.  Either way, as far as I know, the Manhattan or the Westphalia is a variation of the Ragozin. 

MNb, assume you meant 6.e3, although there are other options on White's sixth move.  6.Qc2 is a Nimzo (1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Qc2 d5 5.cxd5 exd5 6.Bg5) and 6.Qb3 has also been played.  6.Nf3 of course is a regular Ragozin.

After 6.e3, 6..Nbd7 does, I think, leave White for choice.  Flear prefers 6..h6 7.Bh4 g5 8.Bg3 Ne4, which leads to another branching point (all of which he covers, btw).  9.Qc2 seems like the most natural choice to me when I had known and not been worried about 9..h4.  But there is also 9..Be6!? which did well enough to equalize in, as far as I can tell, its only GM outing -- a Beliavsky-I.Sokolov game given by Flear.
  
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alumbrado
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Re: Ragozin?
Reply #14 - 05/12/08 at 15:02:47
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Markovich wrote on 05/12/08 at 14:15:49:
Stigma wrote on 05/12/08 at 12:44:23:
MNb wrote on 05/12/08 at 11:47:40:
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Nbd7 5.Nf3 Bb4 is no Ragozin, but the Manhattan Variation. It's named after the famous New York 1927 tournament, where Spielmann as Black quickly got an advantage against Capablanca.


There is a lot of name confusion in these lines. I think of the position after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 dxc4 5.Bg5 Bb4 as the Vienna, and 4.Nc3 Bb4 as the Ragozin. Maybe then if black later meets Bg5 with Nbd7 we have officially transposed to a "Manhattan", but nowadays this is a main line of the Ragozin anyway (Although playing ...c5 before ...Nbd7 has played a part in the explosion of recent years), and the name "Ragozin" for the whole complex seems to have stuck. Fine with me.

There is also the name "Westphalia variation" in the literature, after a boat I think, but I have no idea what minute nuance in the move order this refers to...


I thought the "Westphalia Variation" and the "Manhattan Variation" were the same thing.



My understanding is that the Westphalia was the ship which carried a lot of the players from Europe to New York for the tournament, and it was on this passage that they analysed this variation.
  

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Re: Ragozin?
Reply #13 - 05/12/08 at 14:18:13
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MNb wrote on 05/12/08 at 11:47:40:
I don't know Flear's article, but I can't help being under the impression that 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 Bb4 6.Nge2 favours White compared to the NID.


Yes, but not if Black notices that his opponent has just played an illegal move.
  

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Re: Ragozin?
Reply #12 - 05/12/08 at 14:15:49
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Stigma wrote on 05/12/08 at 12:44:23:
MNb wrote on 05/12/08 at 11:47:40:
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Nbd7 5.Nf3 Bb4 is no Ragozin, but the Manhattan Variation. It's named after the famous New York 1927 tournament, where Spielmann as Black quickly got an advantage against Capablanca.


There is a lot of name confusion in these lines. I think of the position after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 dxc4 5.Bg5 Bb4 as the Vienna, and 4.Nc3 Bb4 as the Ragozin. Maybe then if black later meets Bg5 with Nbd7 we have officially transposed to a "Manhattan", but nowadays this is a main line of the Ragozin anyway (Although playing ...c5 before ...Nbd7 has played a part in the explosion of recent years), and the name "Ragozin" for the whole complex seems to have stuck. Fine with me.

There is also the name "Westphalia variation" in the literature, after a boat I think, but I have no idea what minute nuance in the move order this refers to...


I thought the "Westphalia Variation" and the "Manhattan Variation" were the same thing.
  

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Stigma
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Re: Ragozin?
Reply #11 - 05/12/08 at 12:44:23
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MNb wrote on 05/12/08 at 11:47:40:
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Nbd7 5.Nf3 Bb4 is no Ragozin, but the Manhattan Variation. It's named after the famous New York 1927 tournament, where Spielmann as Black quickly got an advantage against Capablanca.


There is a lot of name confusion in these lines. I think of the position after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 dxc4 5.Bg5 Bb4 as the Vienna, and 4.Nc3 Bb4 as the Ragozin. Maybe then if black later meets Bg5 with Nbd7 we have officially transposed to a "Manhattan", but nowadays this is a main line of the Ragozin anyway (Although playing ...c5 before ...Nbd7 has played a part in the explosion of recent years), and the name "Ragozin" for the whole complex seems to have stuck. Fine with me.

There is also the name "Westphalia variation" in the literature, after a boat I think, but I have no idea what minute nuance in the move order this refers to...
  

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MNb
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Re: Ragozin?
Reply #10 - 05/12/08 at 11:47:40
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1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Nbd7 5.Nf3 Bb4 is no Ragozin, but the Manhattan Variation. It's named after the famous New York 1927 tournament, where Spielmann as Black quickly got an advantage against Capablanca. Later Capa crushed him with the same opening; might have been one of the few times the then WCh studied an opening.
As White usually exchanges on d5 at some point indeed 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Nf3 Nbd7 6.Bg5 Bb4 transposes without any problem. Point is though that an early ...Bf5 is known as an easy equalizer.
I don't know Flear's article, but I can't help being under the impression that 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 Bb4 6.Nge2 favours White compared to the NID.
The Manhattan has not as good a reputation as other options for Black.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Ragozin?
Reply #9 - 05/12/08 at 04:19:13
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HgMan wrote on 05/12/08 at 02:04:37:
Can one transpose into the Ragozin/Manhattan system via the QGD Exchange or after 4.Bg5?  

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Nbd7 5.Nf3 Bb4 -- does this work?

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 Bb4 -- or this?

Or does White have alternatives at move 5 or 6 that make this inadvisable?


I used to think that these lines didn't work because White has Nge2, taking the sting out of the pin.  But GM Flear covers 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 Bb4 in the Dangerous Weapons book and makes a pretty good case for it.  4.Bg5 Nbd7 5.e3 Bb4 should be pretty much the same, as White usually plays cxd5 at some point, transposing to the Exchange.
  
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Re: Ragozin?
Reply #8 - 05/12/08 at 02:04:37
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Can one transpose into the Ragozin/Manhattan system via the QGD Exchange or after 4.Bg5? 

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Nbd7 5.Nf3 Bb4 -- does this work?

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 Bb4 -- or this?

Or does White have alternatives at move 5 or 6 that make this inadvisable?
  

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Re: Ragozin?
Reply #7 - 05/08/08 at 04:04:20
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Could somebody post a link?  Much obliged...

-----------------------

One thing to beware of is that a central idea in the Lipnitsky analysis seems to be under a cloud since a Bobby Fischer game around 1960. The book focuses on Nc6 variations and the line in question is where black meets the e3/Bd3 system with  dc followed by an unforced Bd6 and then e5. The move Nb5 as an immediate response to Bd6 seems to cause problems.

Thats why
I declined to take up the system when I got the book years ago. It doesn't seem like things have changed since--White is scoring round 80% in this line according to my big chessbase tree and no one seems to have repeated Gligoric-Fischer.

Thanks for the suggestions to check out the analysis here. This site does have some excellent stuff on the Ragozin. I see now that the current lines focus on c5 and Nd7 by Black, not Nc6.
  
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Re: Ragozin?
Reply #6 - 05/07/08 at 21:12:55
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Could somebody post a link?  Much obliged...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Re: Ragozin?
Reply #5 - 05/07/08 at 14:48:29
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Hello,

The coverage of the opening is quite detailed, you can see what is in the book on a russian chess site. Covers lines like 5Qc2 pxp havn't seen anywhere else. Bits of this opening analysis is used in other books, in the great tradition of chess plagarism, for example Peter Clark's on Petrosian, and Dvorsky's middle game series. The  worse coverage seems to be of 5pxp pxp 6.Bg5 which became the main-line, so would be relatively easy to update.

Bye John S
  
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Re: Ragozin?
Reply #4 - 05/07/08 at 13:47:50
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Stigma wrote on 05/07/08 at 12:52:42:
browniesbane wrote on 05/07/08 at 01:24:58:
What got me thinking about this is that Quality Chess is printing Questions of Modern (Contemporary) Chess Theory, a classic book from the 50's.


This is an old Russian classic, isn't it? The title sounds familiar, but I can't remember who wrote it. Could it be Suetin?



Isaac Lipnitsky
  

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Re: Ragozin?
Reply #3 - 05/07/08 at 12:52:42
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browniesbane wrote on 05/07/08 at 01:24:58:
What got me thinking about this is that Quality Chess is printing Questions of Modern (Contemporary) Chess Theory, a classic book from the 50's.


This is an old Russian classic, isn't it? The title sounds familiar, but I can't remember who wrote it. Could it be Suetin?

The Ragozin coverage on ChessPublishing does indeed look great, and I wanted to learn it for a couple of years, but I was turned off by some nasty Black losses on top level in 2007 (Topalov-Carlsen, Grischuk-Morozevich). Though probably Black has found improvements on those games.
  

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Re: Ragozin?
Reply #2 - 05/07/08 at 11:49:05
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The Ragozin coverage on Chesspublishing is very fine.  I have been leaning toward working on it myself to pair it with the Nimzo-Indian (which I already play)...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Re: Ragozin?
Reply #1 - 05/07/08 at 05:48:06
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I get the Ragozin all the time in correspondence but never otb. Alot of draws. I always thought the tarrash was a powerful attack if you know it well. I play the nimzo occassionally but that is very very drawish. Semislav gives black alot of good attacking chances.
  
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Ragozin?
05/07/08 at 01:24:58
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I'm thinking of branching from the Tarrasch--I've got a lot of draws from higher rated players, but I don't feel like I am getting any real winning chances from it.

The Semi-slav and Nimzo seem to be a lot to learn. How about the Ragozin? Any thoughts about its current reputation?  Am I going to have to learn Nimzo and Vienna type positions to complete my repitoire?

What got me thinking about this is that Quality Chess is printing Questions of Modern (Contemporary) Chess Theory, a classic book from the 50's. Half of that book is middlegame analysis and half an analysis of the Ragozin, which is probably a little out of date--A real creative choice from them, but I wonder how they are going to handle the opening section--update or drop it entirely?

Browniesbane
  
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