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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) GPA or Nc6 Bb5?? (Read 10007 times)
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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #28 - 07/21/08 at 12:40:23
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1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Bb5 is a very intersting line for white. In many cases black is not really well prepared and of course one gets a nice game in this case.
However, I always had problems to find something "nice" against 2...d6. A common opinion is that the GPA (with Nc3,f4,Nf3,Bc4) is stronger after 2...d6 than after 2...Nc6 which might be true, but still 2...d6 seems to be good enough in order to get a position where black seems to be perfectly OK to me.
  
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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #27 - 05/25/08 at 21:26:25
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MNb wrote on 05/25/08 at 11:22:59:
Chevalier wrote on 05/24/08 at 22:12:15:
Rogozenko, in "Anti-Sicilians: A Guide for Black" doesn't think so. He recommends transposing to the Open Sicilian.

I don't see any reason to avoid this particular version of the Open Sicilian (ie 5...a6 Taimanov) as Black, since 6...Nf6 7.Be3 is very dangerous for Black.

But it's not only the Taimanov - if Black plays ...d6 and ...Nf6 it's also the Scheveningen. And that's a lot of theory for such a sideline. Again I tend to wonder: why not the Open Siclian at once then?


I tend to think that way too, though in the Schevy case I have the feeling that ...a6 plus ...Nc6 may already be sub-optimal for Black versus the f4/Be3/Qf3/0-0-0 stuff.
  
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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #26 - 05/25/08 at 11:22:59
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Chevalier wrote on 05/24/08 at 22:12:15:
Rogozenko, in "Anti-Sicilians: A Guide for Black" doesn't think so. He recommends transposing to the Open Sicilian.

I don't see any reason to avoid this particular version of the Open Sicilian (ie 5...a6 Taimanov) as Black, since 6...Nf6 7.Be3 is very dangerous for Black.

But it's not only the Taimanov - if Black plays ...d6 and ...Nf6 it's also the Scheveningen. And that's a lot of theory for such a sideline. Again I tend to wonder: why not the Open Siclian at once then?
  

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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #25 - 05/25/08 at 05:25:37
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Of course - 7.e5! is very good for White (the dangers of not using a chessboard whilst posting... Undecided)
  

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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #24 - 05/25/08 at 00:29:43
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Chevalier wrote on 05/24/08 at 22:12:15:
Rogozenko, in "Anti-Sicilians: A Guide for Black" doesn't think so. He recommends transposing to the Open Sicilian.

I don't see any reason to avoid this particular version of the Open Sicilian (ie 5...a6 Taimanov) as Black, since 6...Nf6 7.Be3 is very dangerous for Black.


6...Nf6 looks quite dubious (and not because of 7. Be3).
  
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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #23 - 05/24/08 at 22:35:34
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Gawain wrote on 05/24/08 at 20:14:38:
Against 2..a6 I recommended 3.f4 and after b5 4.g3 (which I think is more accurate than 4.Nf3). These lines seem comfortable for White. I appreciate that most players who play GPA don't want to fiancetto bishop but it's a necessity.
Gawain


Good point. I have done well with 2...a6 as Black myself, and it does seem to frustrate many GPA players who want their bishop out to b5 or c4. Even 3.a4 (idea Bc4) is a common reply to 2...a6 in my black games. But you can't play just one type of position and expect good results.
Will be really interesting to read about the double fianchetto against e6/d5/dxe4. If White has chances there that is great news! Thanks for your heplful answer.
  

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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #22 - 05/24/08 at 22:12:15
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Rogozenko, in "Anti-Sicilians: A Guide for Black" doesn't think so. He recommends transposing to the Open Sicilian.

I don't see any reason to avoid this particular version of the Open Sicilian (ie 5...a6 Taimanov) as Black, since 6...Nf6 7.Be3 is very dangerous for Black.
  

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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #21 - 05/24/08 at 21:41:43
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Thanks. I don't know if I agree with += after 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.f4 d5 4.Nf3 dxe4 5.Nxe4 Be7 idea 6.Bb5+ Bd7 or 6.g3 Nf6 or 6.b3 Nf6. I suppose I will have to buy your book.
Forgot to ask: what about 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.f4 Nc6 4.Nf3 a6 ? Black still may play 5...d5, so no Closed Sicilian. Has White a decent alternative for the Open Sicilian with 5.d4 ?
  

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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #20 - 05/24/08 at 20:14:38
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Against 2..a6 I recommended 3.f4 and after b5 4.g3 (which I think is more accurate than 4.Nf3). These lines seem comfortable for White. I appreciate that most players who play GPA don't want to fiancetto bishop but it's a necessity. Against the 2..e6 followed by a6 before d5 again I recommend fianchettoing the bishop while against 2..e6 3.f4 d5 I play 4.Nf3. If Black takes on e4 I think the double fianchetto is the most promising when I believe white has some advantage while if Nc6 I have Bb5, exd5 and Qe2.   

I transpose to the Open Sicilian around 1/3rd of the time after 2..e6 I think. Hope this helps!
Gawain
  
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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #19 - 05/24/08 at 15:30:41
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Like Stigma I am very eager to learn the answer.
  

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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #18 - 05/23/08 at 20:09:33
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Gawain wrote on 05/23/08 at 15:05:33:
...
I cover both possibilites in my recent book, Starting Out: Grand Prix Attack (sorry for the plug!)
Gawain

Congratulations on your good results with the GPA and 3.Bb5. I will have to buy the book eventually, since I play both lines and also recommend them to pupils!

A question: Did you cover/recommend any interesting GPA-style or Closed answers to 2.Nc3 e6 and 2...a6? Or is it (as I suspect) better to transpose to the Open against those two moves, to get interesting play?
Thanks in advance.
  

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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #17 - 05/23/08 at 15:05:33
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Hi,
I play both 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Bb5 and 3.f4 as my main weapons at Grandmaster level and have good results in them, (beaten van Wely and Gelashvili (2630) recently, together with a few other wins against Grandmasters. I'm going to be truthful and say I think there are lines in which Black can equalise but normally I'm happy as I know the positions better anyway. I started out just playing 3.Bb5 but had to expand to make it harder for people to prepare for me. I cover both possibilites in my recent book, Starting Out: Grand Prix Attack (sorry for the plug!)
Gawain
  
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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #16 - 05/22/08 at 05:35:24
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In my opinion, the Alapin Sicilian is a more effective Anti-Sicilian than the Grand Prix Attack; just look at Tiviakov's games for example.
  

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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #15 - 05/20/08 at 19:11:52
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Willempie wrote on 05/20/08 at 15:25:33:
Stigma wrote on 05/20/08 at 12:07:33:
Willempie wrote on 05/20/08 at 11:41:29:
Still after 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.Nf3 d6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Be7 or a6 you are forced out of the scary Schevy lines such as the Keres-attack or certain Sozin lines.


Good point, I hadn't thought about that issue. Probably because I have considered mainly the Classical, English Attack and 6.g3 for White, to fit thematically with similar lines against other Sicilians.

The Keres is probably out of the question with no knight on f6 yet, but how exactly can black exploit this move order if White plays 6.Bc4? Something with an early ...b5, perhaps?

Well to start with after 6..Nf6 you are in the worst form of the Sozin as Be7 does a good job protecting the king (usually not possible in the Najdorf Sozin) and can move his knight to c5 (not possible in the classical Sozin). Iirc Golubev only gives 3 pages on this as he thinks it is the worst form of the Sozin, though he remarks that many blacks dont appreciate this and transpose to the Najdorf or Classical.
And yes something with 6..a6 while delaying Nf6 a little and later b5 also looks good.


The comment about ...Be7 is a bit mysterious (it's often played on move 8 or 9 in the Najdorf Sozin). 

To clarify, the "worst form of the Sozin (for White)" you refer to involves ...Na6, generally after ...Nf6, ...Be7 and ...0-0 (by which time White will generally have played Bb3, for fear of ...d5 or ...Nxe4).  So there are no issues with Bxe6, and after the knight arrives on c5 Black will often have a choice of ...a6 or ...a5 (in contrast to the 7...Nbd7 branch of the Najdorf Sozin).
  
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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #14 - 05/20/08 at 15:41:48
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Stigma wrote on 05/20/08 at 10:06:51:
I would have thought MNb wouldn't mind recommending such a combination; is it just too inconsistent to combine "Opens" and "Antis"?

In the past I have thought about combinations like this. Invariably, beginning with 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.Nf3/3.Nge2 and 4.d4, I ended with the conclusion that it is more convenient to begin with the Open Sicilian immediately. OK, the beginner should avoid the English Attack, the 6.Bg5 Najdorf, the Richter-Rauser and the Jugoslav Attack, but there is an abundance of choice at move 6.
If you decide to play classical setups (with Be2 and Be3) after 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.Nf3/3.Nge2 and 4.d4 it is only a small step to similar variations after 2...Nc6 and 2...d6.
To speak for myself, I regret not having taken this step more than 20 years ago. I am stuck in the Anti-Sicilian trap, hence I warn others.  Embarrassed
  

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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #13 - 05/20/08 at 15:25:33
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Stigma wrote on 05/20/08 at 12:07:33:
Willempie wrote on 05/20/08 at 11:41:29:
Still after 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.Nf3 d6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Be7 or a6 you are forced out of the scary Schevy lines such as the Keres-attack or certain Sozin lines.


Good point, I hadn't thought about that issue. Probably because I have considered mainly the Classical, English Attack and 6.g3 for White, to fit thematically with similar lines against other Sicilians.

The Keres is probably out of the question with no knight on f6 yet, but how exactly can black exploit this move order if White plays 6.Bc4? Something with an early ...b5, perhaps?

Well to start with after 6..Nf6 you are in the worst form of the Sozin as Be7 does a good job protecting the king (usually not possible in the Najdorf Sozin) and can move his knight to c5 (not possible in the classical Sozin). Iirc Golubev only gives 3 pages on this as he thinks it is the worst form of the Sozin, though he remarks that many blacks dont appreciate this and transpose to the Najdorf or Classical.
And yes something with 6..a6 while delaying Nf6 a little and later b5 also looks good.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #12 - 05/20/08 at 12:07:33
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Willempie wrote on 05/20/08 at 11:41:29:
Still after 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.Nf3 d6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Be7 or a6 you are forced out of the scary Schevy lines such as the Keres-attack or certain Sozin lines.


Good point, I hadn't thought about that issue. Probably because I have considered mainly the Classical, English Attack and 6.g3 for White, to fit thematically with similar lines against other Sicilians.

The Keres is probably out of the question with no knight on f6 yet, but how exactly can black exploit this move order if White plays 6.Bc4? Something with an early ...b5, perhaps?

Come to think of it, I think Frank Zeller covered this move order (e6/d6/a6 before any piece moves, with White committed to Nc3) in his book "Sizilianisch im Geiste des Igels" and considered it a good starting point for a Kan/Hedgehog for Black if White allows it. Maybe I will dig out the book and look again at his conclusions. Food for thought!

Edit:
My brain works slowly today...
The position after 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.Nf3 d6 4.d4 exd4 5.Nxd4 a6 can of course also arise via a Kan move order: 3.Nf3 a6 4.d4 exd4 5.Nxd4 d6. So it should be covered in Experts vs the Sicilian, and if I'm not mistaken Sune Berg Hansen's recommendation there was 6.Bd3, with similar play to his other Kan lines. If Black unthinkingly plays like a normal Scheveningen, White might save a tempo on Classical lines with Be2-d3, so both sides need to show some care.
  

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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #11 - 05/20/08 at 11:41:29
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Stigma wrote on 05/20/08 at 11:10:26:
Read a bit more carefully, my friend... Smiley

Seriously though, I know it is customary to count the Scheveningen as a d6-Sicilian. I included it in the e6-group here precisely for the reason you give; 2.Nc3 e6 3.Nf3 d6 4.d4!

Aha. Careful reading indeed Smiley

Still after 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.Nf3 d6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Be7 or a6 you are forced out of the scary Schevy lines such as the Keres-attack or certain Sozin lines.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #10 - 05/20/08 at 11:10:26
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Willempie wrote on 05/20/08 at 11:01:15:
Stigma wrote on 05/20/08 at 10:06:51:
Agreed, both the GPA and 3.Bb5 are most effective if combined with an Open repertoire against the e6-Sicilians (Taimanov, Kan, Scheveningen and 4 Knights).
...

3..d6?
You can play 4.Bb5+ but I dont think it is anything to worry about, while 4.d4 sets you in the Scheveningen, which you were trying to avoid.


Read a bit more carefully, my friend... Smiley

Seriously though, I know it is customary to count the Scheveningen as a d6-Sicilian. I included it in the e6-group here precisely for the reason you give; 2.Nc3 e6 3.Nf3 d6 4.d4!
  

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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #9 - 05/20/08 at 11:01:15
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Stigma wrote on 05/20/08 at 10:06:51:
Agreed, both the GPA and 3.Bb5 are most effective if combined with an Open repertoire against the e6-Sicilians (Taimanov, Kan, Scheveningen and 4 Knights). I would have thought MNb wouldn't mind recommending such a combination; is it just too inconsistent to combine "Opens" and "Antis"?

The 2.Nc3 move-order has some independent value even with 2...e6 3.Nf3: We avoid the Gå-På (2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Qb6), the Pin variation, the Basman-Sale variation/"Sizilianisch für Müssiggänger" (2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 Nxd4 Bc5) and the Kveinys variation (2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 Nxd4 Qb6). While of course seriously reducing our options against the Kan, but the Nc3/Bd3 repertoire from "Experts vs the Sicilian" is still playable and critical.

3..d6?
You can play 4.Bb5+ but I dont think it is anything to worry about, while 4.d4 sets you in the Scheveningen, which you were trying to avoid.
  

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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #8 - 05/20/08 at 10:06:51
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Agreed, both the GPA and 3.Bb5 are most effective if combined with an Open repertoire against the e6-Sicilians (Taimanov, Kan, Scheveningen and 4 Knights). I would have thought MNb wouldn't mind recommending such a combination; is it just too inconsistent to combine "Opens" and "Antis"?

The 2.Nc3 move-order has some independent value even with 2...e6 3.Nf3: We avoid the Gå-På (2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Qb6), the Pin variation, the Basman-Sale variation/"Sizilianisch für Müssiggänger" (2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 Nxd4 Bc5) and the Kveinys variation (2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 Nxd4 Qb6). While of course seriously reducing our options against the Kan, but the Nc3/Bd3 repertoire from "Experts vs the Sicilian" is still playable and critical.

I have tried to think of a smooth way for juniors (or adults) to gradually take up the Open Sicilian without drowning in all Black's pet lines at once, and came up with:

Stage 1: GPA or 3.Bb5 (most weak opponents automatically play 2...Nc6)
Stage 2: GPA or 3.Bb5; Open against 2...e6 and 2...a6
Stage 3: (optional) Switch to 2.Nf3. Rossolimo; Moscow or 3.d4 exd4 4.Qxd4!?; Open         against 2...e6
Stage 4: 2.Nf3: Rossolimo, Open against 2...e6 and 2...d6
Stage 5: Open against everything (though many strong players stay in Stage 4)

There is however a more brutal, aggressive route, which I have seen some trainers/youngsters take with success:

Stage 1: Morra Gambit (teach development, attacking play, standard sacrifices)
Stage 2: Open Sicilians (when opponents start playing the best defences to the Morra!)
« Last Edit: 05/20/08 at 12:51:55 by Stigma »  

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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #7 - 05/20/08 at 09:04:34
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True - but 2...e6 is not the most popular, probably because of 3.Nf3!? and 4.d4 with a change of mind back to open Sicilian.

Modern chess is a move-order headache.
  
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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #6 - 05/20/08 at 01:22:16
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As soon as I know how to meet the dull 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.f4 d5 4.Nf3 dxe4 I will recommend the GPA.
  

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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #5 - 05/19/08 at 09:51:52
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There are a lot of people here trying to say the best is this, the best is that. It might well be that the "best" is the open Sicilian, which is what I like myself, but I´d not be so dogmatic as to dismiss the GPA, which I suspect may score even better results than the open Sicilian below the GM level. Even Short has given this a bash in a Candidates match against Gelfand, so lets not get too snobby here.
  
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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #4 - 05/19/08 at 06:25:59
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If you are going to avoid the Open Sicilian, then the Rossolimo (2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5) and the Moscow (2.Nf3 d6 3.Bb5) are the best chances for an opening advantage. Against 2...e6, the Alapin Sicilian (3.c3) is the only real chance to fight for any edge at all without playing the Open Sicilian, although Black should still be able to equalise without a lot of difficulty in this line.

So, play the Open Sicilian!
  

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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #3 - 05/17/08 at 17:07:25
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I think both should allow black to equalize. But 3.Bb5 is still not so well-explored, and may come more as a surprise. I sometimes play both; many of the plans are similiar though usually the GPA is more directly aggresive.
  

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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #2 - 05/17/08 at 15:03:50
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The best are the mainlines.

Toppy Smiley
  

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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #1 - 05/17/08 at 15:03:30
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Best is Open Sicilian.
  

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GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
05/17/08 at 04:01:26
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Hi all,
wich is best:
1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 and grand prix or 3.Bb5??
thanks everyone who reads this!!
Zatara
  
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