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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Hedgehog (Read 21246 times)
Sacapawn
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Re: Hedgehog
Reply #19 - 06/04/08 at 23:42:45
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14.h4 d5! (in the first game) which threatens perpetual checks with Qg3 and Qh3 looks like an equalizer for Black.

I suppose this line is an expection to the rule that the pawns in front of the king shouldn't be moved. The alternative is to allow the Nf6 to be forced to a passive square on e8 which is what happened in your game.

This might be on over-simplification, but anyway: it is White who chooses a plan in the Hedgehog (pawn storm on kingside, pawn storm on queen side, doing nothing, some other plan). Black must react accordingly. So in order to know how to play as Black one should get aquainted with White's different plans and what to do against them as Black. 

Against the kingside attack with g4 (there are also other attacking methods for White like f4-f5 or f4 and e5) Black usually reacts with h6, g6 (to able to play Nh5 after g5) or e5 (threatening the Nd4, even if it gives up the f5 square). The game Agdestein-Ftacnik, Naestved 1985, was like your third game but with Rc1 and Rfe8 inserted. It went 17...Rad8 (you played 16...Rfd8) 18.Nd5 Nxd5 19.cxd5 a5 20.Nxe7+ Qxe7 and this is assessed as equal in ECO. In Krasenkow-Nisipeanu, 2006, (½-½ after 34 moves)  14...g6 was played (where you played 14...e5). I looked up the chesspublishing games to find out if h6 or g6 (generally) was considered preferable: in one game Black played h6 and TonyK commented that g6 was safer; in another game Black played g6 and TonyK commented that h6 was safer! Those were only similar, not identical positions, but it shows that this line not is easy to handle for Black.
  
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sssthepro
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Re: Hedgehog
Reply #18 - 06/04/08 at 06:32:37
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Thanks for the analysis Sacapawn! However, what do you think should be played after White played 14.h4, trying to get in g5 anyway? And shouldn't you not move pawns on the kingside, as it allows White to attack better?

Also, what are some of the general plans that Black should follow? Playing ...e5 seems to give up the f5 square.
  
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IM Christoph Wisnewski
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Re: Hedgehog
Reply #17 - 06/04/08 at 06:13:31
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Bonsai wrote on 06/03/08 at 06:18:23:
Sacapawn wrote on 06/02/08 at 18:30:08:
The Safest Sicilian recommends that Black aims for the d6-d5 push instead of passive play or the "Fischer plan".

Of course that's only possibly due to their specific opening line. I assumed the question by the original poster was more general...

Anyway, I remembered a series of Artikels by GM Wahls and searching for it, I hit upon the German wikipedia page on the hedgehog. This is a funny case where the English wikipedia article has less information and one finds a lot of references (partially because they are in German) on this page: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igelstellung
(hedgehog = Igel, just to start you off with learning German  Wink )


Funny case?! Considering chess topics, wikipedia.de nearly always has more information to offer than its english version...
  

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Sacapawn
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Re: Hedgehog
Reply #16 - 06/04/08 at 00:30:40
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Right, the Safest sicilian only treats Hedgehogs arising from the Taimanov. The Hedgehog openings are rather complex, but I think it is correct to say that Black's main counterplay resources are the possible d5 (or b5) breaks. 

sssthepro:

Yes, a kingside attack including g4 is a common idea.

A possible improvement in the first game is 13.-,h6!?

In the third game 11.e5 is winning (a known trap). To avoid this the usual move order is 7...d6 8.e4 a6 9.d4 cxd4 10.Nxd4 Qc7 followed by Nbd7 and 0-0.
Apart from this it looks ok until 25.-,Nf8 which has a serious tactical flaw, spotted immediately by my newly purchased Rybka. Finding the refutation is a nice exercise for the forum readers! Instead 25.-,Rf8 looks quite alright for Black.
  
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Bonsai
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Re: Hedgehog
Reply #15 - 06/03/08 at 06:18:23
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Sacapawn wrote on 06/02/08 at 18:30:08:
The Safest Sicilian recommends that Black aims for the d6-d5 push instead of passive play or the "Fischer plan".

Of course that's only possibly due to their specific opening line. I assumed the question by the original poster was more general...

Anyway, I remembered a series of Artikels by GM Wahls and searching for it, I hit upon the German wikipedia page on the hedgehog. This is a funny case where the English wikipedia article has less information and one finds a lot of references (partially because they are in German) on this page: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igelstellung
(hedgehog = Igel, just to start you off with learning German  Wink )
  
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sssthepro
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Re: Hedgehog
Reply #14 - 06/03/08 at 03:58:11
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Thanks for the replies! I will try to get my hands onto the safest sicilian. Reading some reviews, it seems that there are a lot of typos. Is that serious? 

Also, here are some games regarding the g4 idea that I mentioned earlier
1. d4  Nf6  2. Nf3 c5 3. c4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 e6 5.Nc3 b6 6. e4 d6 7. f3 Bb7 8. Be3 a6 9. Qd2 Nbd7 10. Be2 Be7 11. O-O Qc7 12. Rac1 O-O 13. g4 Rfd8   

(13... Ne5 14. g5 Nfd7 15. f4 Nc6 16. Nd5!) 

14. g5  Ne8 15. f4 Bf8 16. h4 e5 17. Nd5 Qb8 18. Nf5 exf4 19.Bd4 Nc7 20. Qxf4 Ne6 21. Nh6+ Kh8 22. Nxf7+ Kg8 23. Nh6+ Kh8 24. Qe3 

White is winning.

Not sure where I played wrongly here. Comments?

I have another game, but I think this time g4 is less strong. 

1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 e6 3. g3 b6 4. Bg2 Bb7 5. O-O c5 6. c4 cxd4 7. Qxd4 Be7 8. Nc3 O-O 9. e4 d6 10. b3 a6 11. Bb2 Nbd7 12. Rad1 Qc7 13. Rfe1 Rac8 14. h3 Rfd8 15. g4 Ne5! and I think Black is okay here. Unlike the previous game, ...Ne5 works here (I played 15...Qb8? in the game) 16. g5 Nfd7 17. h4 (17. Ba3 Nxf3+ 18. Bxf3 Ne5 19. Bg2 b5) 17... Nxf3+ 18. Bxf3 e5 19. Qd2 Nf8 going to e6 to jump to d4 or f4 20. Nd5 Bxd5 21. cxd5 Qc2 and I like Black's position

Is g4 a really common idea in the Hedgehog? What are the usual antidotes that should be played?

This is another game that I played, with some lines by Fritz

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. g3 e6 3. c4 b6  4. Bg2 Bb7 5.O-O c5 6. Nc3 Be7 7. Re1 O-O 8. e4 d6 9. d4 cxd4 10. Nxd4 a6 11. f4 Qc7 12. Be3 Nbd7

(12...Qxc4 13. e5 dxe5 14. fxe5 Nd5 15. Nxd5 Bxd5 16. b3 Qc8 17. Nxe6 (17. Nf5 Nc6 18. Bxd5 exd5 19. Qxd5 Qxf5 20. Qxc6)

17... Bxg2 18. Nxf8 Bb7) 13. g4 Nc5 

(13... Qxc4 14. g5 (14. e5 dxe5 15. Bxb7 (15. fxe5 Nd5 16. Nxd5 Bxd5 17. b3 Qc7 18. Bxd5 exd5 19. Rc1 Qb7 20. Nc6 Rfe8 21. Qxd5 Nxe5 22. Qxe5 Bc5) 15...exd4 16. Bxa8 dxe3) 14... Ne8 15. Rc1 Qc7 16. f5 e5 17. Nd5 Qd8 18. Nf3) 

14.Bf2 e5 15. fxe5 dxe5 16. Nf5 Rfd8 17. Nd5 Nxd5 18. cxd5 Bg5 19. h4 Bf4 20. g5 g6 21. Nh6+ Kg7 22. Rf1 f6 23. b4 Nd7 24. Qg4 fxg5 25. hxg5 Nf8 26. Bh4 Bc8 27. Qe2 Qe7 28. Rxf4 exf4 29. Qb2+ 1-0

  
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alumbrado
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Re: Hedgehog
Reply #13 - 06/02/08 at 22:13:16
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IMJohnCox wrote on 06/02/08 at 17:47:05:
Safest Sicilian is very down on this ...g5 plan.


Ah yes, that's the source I was thinking of.  Cool
  

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Sacapawn
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Re: Hedgehog
Reply #12 - 06/02/08 at 18:30:08
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The Safest Sicilian recommends that Black aims for the d6-d5 push instead of passive play or the "Fischer plan".
  
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Hedgehog
Reply #11 - 06/02/08 at 17:47:05
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Safest Sicilian is very down on this ...g5 plan. See also Charbonneau-Anand in some recent Olympiad for some aversion therapy.


In reply to the question what should Black do when there is nothing to do - manoeuvre! It's hard, but then it's hard for White too. There's a reason why this opening so often leads to long tense games and time scrambles.
  
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Re: Hedgehog
Reply #10 - 06/02/08 at 17:01:15
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alumbrado wrote on 06/02/08 at 16:36:09:
Mortazavi has a few interesting things to say in Winning with the Kan about what he calls 'The Fischer Attack' i.e. "the line with ...Be7-d8-c7 and ...Rg8 and ...g5" to which you refer.  (It's not clear to me why he calls it that - does anybody have a game reference where Fischer uses this plan?).


[Event "Siegen Exhibition Game"]
[Date "1970.??.??"]
[Result "1-0"]
[White "Fischer, Robert James"]
[Black "Andersson, Ulf"]
[ECO "A01"]
[PlyCount "85"]

1.b3 e5 2.Bb2 Nc6 3.c4 Nf6 4.e3 Be7 5.a3 O-O 6.Qc2 Re8 7.d3 Bf8 8.Nf3 a5 9.Be2 d5 10.cxd5 Nxd5 11.Nbd2 f6 12.O-O Be6 13.Kh1 Qd7 14.Rg1 Rad8 15.Ne4 Qf7 16.g4 g6 17.Rg3 Bg7 18.Rag1 Nb6 19.Nc5 Bc8 20.Nh4 Nd7 21.Ne4 Nf8 22.Nf5 Be6 23.Nc5 Ne7 24.Nxg7 Kxg7 25.g5 Nf5 26.Rf3 b6 27.gxf6 Kh8 28.Nxe6 Rxe6 29.d4 exd4 30.Bc4 d3 31.Bxd3 Rxd3 32.Qxd3 Rd6 33.Qc4 Ne6 34.Be5 Rd8 35.h4 Nd6 36.Qg4 Nf8 37.h5 Ne8 38.e4 Rd2 39.Rh3 Kg8 40.hxg6 Nxg6 41.f4 Kf8 42.Qg5 Nd6 43.Bxd6+ 1-0 

I think this is the game Mortazavi had in mind. Note that Andersson seems to endorse the view that g5 has less point against g3, since he actually answered g2-g4 with ...g6 and ...Bg7. But this was early days for the Hedgehog, and Fischer's play must have seemed very novel.

I remember Silman in his Reassess Your Chess Workbook comparing this game to a much more ancient one (by Morphy or Anderssen I think) where black played a similiar ...g5 and ...Rg8.
« Last Edit: 06/02/08 at 20:04:31 by Stigma »  

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Re: Hedgehog
Reply #9 - 06/02/08 at 16:53:30
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Fischer played that sort of thing against Andersson and Garcia Soruco, although in neither case did the opponent have the "Maroczy" pawn on c4/c5.
  
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alumbrado
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Re: Hedgehog
Reply #8 - 06/02/08 at 16:36:09
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Mortazavi has a few interesting things to say in Winning with the Kan about what he calls 'The Fischer Attack' i.e. "the line with ...Be7-d8-c7 and ...Rg8 and ...g5" to which you refer.  (It's not clear to me why he calls it that - does anybody have a game reference where Fischer uses this plan?).

He gives two illustrative games, both featuring Zsofia Polgar on the black side: I. Gurevich-Zso. Polgar, New York 1992 (0-1, 41); and V. Anand - Zso. Polgar, Delhi 1990 (1-0, 50).  His conclusion to the Gurevich game, where Black wins, is that it is "a slightly one-sided view of a system which is extremely risky in practice".  The Anand game, by contrast "is a more realistic picture of what can happen when White is fully aware of the consequences of the Fischer attack and does his best to frustrate Black's plans".  Mortazavi argues that "it is clear that Black must not religiously play the Fischer attack against any formation White may adopt, but should feign the attack instead of actually carrying it out".

I am not sure whether that is damning with faint praise or praising with faint damns ... either way, I think it is clear that even an enterprising player such as Mortazavi (he was a few years senior to me on the UK junior circuit and had something of a reputation for his adventurous style of play) has his doubts about lunging forward with the g-pawn unless the circumstances were absolutely right.

Skimming through Suba's The Hedgehog I can see no mention of this idea at all - but then he deals mostly with systems where White has played g3 and Bg2, where obviously the ...g5 idea has much less point.

I am sure I have seen the whole idea dismissed as 'junk' or words to that effect somewhere, but I can't remember where.  Come to think of it, it was probably someone on the forum here ... you guys are (thankfully) not backwards coming forwards with your opinions!
  

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Re: Hedgehog
Reply #7 - 06/02/08 at 13:19:26
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Looks like I have to spend some time learning German or Russian first... Sad

Maybe I will ask a few questions first. Is the line with ...Be7-d8-c7 and ...Rg8 and ...g5 sound? It looks really caveman to me. Other than that, I think Black's only other option is to move around and play for ...b5 and ..d5 when he has the chance, but if White is careful, Black does not have a chance. So What should Black do when there is nothing to do?

Also, I played a few games where White plays g4-g5 when I try to get a Hedgehog structure, getting a strong attack, because my pieces on the queensidea are misplaced. I tried to strike out with ...e5 in one game, but then I gave the d5 and f5 squares to White. Do you know what should be played?
  
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Re: Hedgehog
Reply #6 - 06/02/08 at 12:28:23
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IMJohnCox wrote on 06/02/08 at 11:08:18:
Yorzh, Sergei Shipov. Google and obtain from Russian on-line bookshops (Convekta, is it?).

You'll have to learn Russian, I'm afraid, but it's worth it. Failing that, Suba's book, but you'll have to learn Suba, which is worse.

Other than that, I'm out. I'm surprised none of the publishing houses has ever commissioned Shipov to do one in English, actually.

See the hedgehog thread in the flank openings section.
  
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Re: Hedgehog
Reply #5 - 06/02/08 at 11:49:50
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Zeller with Sizilianisch im Geistes des Igels, is a very good book, but it is in german though.

A little outdated, but also Winning with the Kan from Mortazavi.

John Emms with Sicilian Kan.
  
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