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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Beating The Open Games 2nd Edition (Read 57568 times)
Markovich
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Re: Beating The Open Games 2nd Edition
Reply #20 - 07/03/08 at 18:50:15
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Thank you for that most generous exposition.  However I very much fear that Anonymous will still find what he considers to be grave defects in Marin's work.  It can't be helped, given the imperfection of Man and the high degree of perfection demanded by Anonymous. 

I really don't know if anyone here besides Anonymous feels this way.  I certainly don't, and I have "only" the first edtion of Marin's two-volume work, which I consider to be quite good.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Jacob Aagaard
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Re: Beating The Open Games 2nd Edition
Reply #19 - 07/03/08 at 17:22:33
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It seems that there continues to be a case to answer after this refutation of the Marin recommendation in the Ponziani, which Tony Kosten was stunned to see was not mentioned in either the first - and later a reader was upset not to find in the second edition.First of all, our books are not written to counter ChessPublishing.com or to give answers to their readers in particular, but to offer the best possible weaponry for the practical player. If you want completeness, get a database. If you want an opinion, get our books. At least, this is the philosophy we live by. Like everyone else, we do at times come short of our ideals. However, this is not one of those moments.The suggested refutation has been played in three unimportant games from 1997 to 2004 and looks - and seems to be - completely harmless. As a repertoire book of 1500 pages is undesirable for all, Mihail ignored such options.To prove our case, I have decided to offer a closer look. This does not mean that I will do so everytime someone is concerned, but I felt like it.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.c3 Nf6 4.d4 Nxe4 5.d5 Ne7 6.Nxe5 Ng6 7.Nxg6 hxg6 8.Nd2 This is supposedly the refutation, though Kosten never says anything of that sort. I called it a random move, which is exactly what it is. Possible, equal among equals. I will give a few recommendations for the upset reader as consolation. 8...Nxd2 Looks fine to me, but not the only move. [8...Nc5 might be perfectly acceptable as well.; 8...Nf6 9.Nc4 This is supposedly dangerous, with the idea d6. I cannot see this. (On 9.Nf3 Bc5= looks like an obvious improvement over the eccentric 9...Rh5, as mentioned by Tony.) 9...Qe7+ (9...d6 with moves such as 10.Be2 Be7 11.0–0 0–0 12.Re1 Re8 is not giving White anything to speak about. Fritz is wrong here, for once. But yes, it does look a bit passive.) 10.Be2 b5 11.Ne3 Bb7 12.0–0 Qc5 looks very unclear to me, and in no way worse for Black.] 9.Bxd2 Bc5 [9...Bd6 and; 9...b6 are both ok for Black, as far as I can see.] 10.Bd3 d6 11.Qf3 Qh4 This is one possible improvement. [11...Qe7+ 12.Kf1 might actually give White a slight edge, as in Tony's Game.] 12.0–0–0 Bg4 13.Rde1+ [13.Qe4+ Kf8 14.f3 Bd7=] 13...Kf8 14.Qf4 Bd7 and the variation has been refuted into a very safe endgame for Black. =

And no, I don't see this as important enough to make the book, though I am sure that equally unimportant lines probably made the book...

Jacob Aagaard, Quality Chess
  
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MNb
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Re: Beating The Open Games 2nd Edition
Reply #18 - 06/30/08 at 02:47:50
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MNB, I am just upset that Marin didn't address this in his second edition!

You seem to derive enduring pleasure from being upset - more than a week since you started this thread!
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Antillian
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Re: Beating The Open Games 2nd Edition
Reply #17 - 06/29/08 at 22:22:53
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MNB, I am just upset that Marin didn't address this in his second edition!


Perhaps you should take this matter to FIDE. I am sure they must have a committee for things like this  Huh
  

"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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Anonymous
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Re: Beating The Open Games 2nd Edition
Reply #16 - 06/29/08 at 21:28:44
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MNB, I am just upset that Marin didn't address this in his second edition!
  
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fluffy
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Re: Beating The Open Games 2nd Edition
Reply #15 - 06/29/08 at 20:14:28
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um, the Ponziani?
  
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MNb
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Re: Beating The Open Games 2nd Edition
Reply #14 - 06/29/08 at 19:47:39
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MNb wrote on 06/26/08 at 21:44:41:
a) Refute Kosten's refutation.
b) Find a good alternative for Black before 8.Nd2.
c) Develop a Ponziani repertoire based on Kosten's line and beat all those s**kers that follow Marin blindly.


I am upset you still haven't tried at least one of these options.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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Anonymous
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Re: Beating The Open Games 2nd Edition
Reply #13 - 06/29/08 at 19:16:22
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I am really upset! 8 Nd2 in the Ponziani isn't just some random or normal move Aagaard! Tony Kosten analyzed it and thinks it may refute that line of the Ponziani for Black! This really seems like something that Marin should have addressed in his second edition! I am also upset that Marin had to come out with a second edition so early! If he had just used Chesspublishing.com and other key sources in the first edition, he probably wouldn't have had to come out with a second edition!
  
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rossia
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Re: Beating The Open Games 2nd Edition
Reply #12 - 06/27/08 at 06:44:35
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I agree 100% with MNb and TopNotch!!!

How can somebody expect to receive 100% full-blooded and 100% bullet-proof opening repertoire for just 25 Euro or around 30 US Dollars, the price you have to pay for Marin's book.

Anonymus: why don't you simply hire e.g. Kasparov, Dvoretsky, Yussupov or other top player/trainer? Then you'll see what you gonna get for 30 US Dollars... not even a word 1...e5.

  
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TopNotch
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Re: Beating The Open Games 2nd Edition
Reply #11 - 06/27/08 at 01:37:34
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In Tony Kosten's June 2007 1 e4 e5 update, he analyzes the move 8 Nd2 after 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 c3 Nf6 4 d4 Nxe4 5 d5 Ne7 6 Nxe5 Ng6 7 Nxg6 hxh6 and says that 8 Nd2 isn't mentioned in Mihail Marin's book Beating the Ooen Games. Marin does not address this in his second edition! Why didn't Marin address 8 Nd2 in the second edition of his book? He used chesspublishing.com to get Oliver Renet's  analysis of 10 Qd2 in the King's Gambit Declined but he couldn't look at any other lines? I find it completely unacceptable!


Your expectations are a bit too high, also I think that Marin may have gotten the 10.Qd2 analysis from Kosten via Agard and not by visiting this site directly.

As I have expressed many times on this forum, Repertoire books have a short shelf life and should serve as a starting point of ones investigations and not an ending.

Chess is a thinking man's game where improvement is only to be had in part by learning how to graple effectively with one's own opening problems. Consider a new theoretical wrinkle as a challenge to better and expand ones analytical skills.

Rise to the challenge.

Toppy Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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MNb
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Re: Beating The Open Games 2nd Edition
Reply #10 - 06/26/08 at 23:51:00
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I don't know what your talking about

Cool.   Cool  Cheesy
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Anonymous
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Re: Beating The Open Games 2nd Edition
Reply #9 - 06/26/08 at 22:31:16
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MNb wrote on 06/26/08 at 21:44:41:
Quote:
Your calling 8 Nd2 a normal move? Tony Kosten analyzed it and thinks it may refute that line of the Ponziani for Black!

Also, I agree that Marin used many sources in this book BUT he didn't use the right sources! Why didn't he use Play the Open Games as Black, Play 1 e4 e5, The Chess Advantage in Black and White, etc? Most other authors use these type of sources. Marin used a lot of sources like Akiba Rubinstein: Uncrowned King which don't help you write a repertoire book.    


I advise you to try to write an opening book yourself. Then you will get an idea how hard and how much work it is. Nobody has forced you to buy Marin's book, so if it really is that bad as you suggest you are the d**b guy. You might have taken a look at the bibliography before spending your hard earned bucks.
And why didn't Marin? Maybe because he is not a copycat?
So what to do now, as you won't get your money back?
1. Also purchase Play the Open Games as Black, Play 1 e4 e5, The Chess Advantage in Black and White, etc and compare. That is not the worst way to learn what the most important lines are. As a famous Dutchman always says: every disadvantage has its advantage. Use it to your benefit.
2. How bad, GM Kosten has refuted a line recommended by Marin. Guess what, that happens all the time in chess theory, often before a book even has been published. Now there are three paths you may follow (and, how nice, you may try them all).
2a) Refute Kosten's refutation.
2b) Find a good alternative for Black before 8.Nd2.
2c) Develop a Ponziani repertoire based on Kosten's line and beat all those s**kers that follow Marin blindly.

But I assure you that whining like you do in this thread will not bring you one inch further. And yes, I am very serious. Let me give an example.
Five years ago I bought Williams' book on the Classical Dutch. After working my way through it I 1) decided not to follow any of his recommendations 2) felt that I understood the opening way better than before.
So I am happy I bought it.
One last question: is your glass always half empty?


I don't know what your talking about
  
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MNb
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Re: Beating The Open Games 2nd Edition
Reply #8 - 06/26/08 at 21:44:41
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Your calling 8 Nd2 a normal move? Tony Kosten analyzed it and thinks it may refute that line of the Ponziani for Black!

Also, I agree that Marin used many sources in this book BUT he didn't use the right sources! Why didn't he use Play the Open Games as Black, Play 1 e4 e5, The Chess Advantage in Black and White, etc? Most other authors use these type of sources. Marin used a lot of sources like Akiba Rubinstein: Uncrowned King which don't help you write a repertoire book.    


I advise you to try to write an opening book yourself. Then you will get an idea how hard and how much work it is. Nobody has forced you to buy Marin's book, so if it really is that bad as you suggest you are the d**b guy. You might have taken a look at the bibliography before spending your hard earned bucks.
And why didn't Marin? Maybe because he is not a copycat?
So what to do now, as you won't get your money back?
1. Also purchase Play the Open Games as Black, Play 1 e4 e5, The Chess Advantage in Black and White, etc and compare. That is not the worst way to learn what the most important lines are. As a famous Dutchman always says: every disadvantage has its advantage. Use it to your benefit.
2. How bad, GM Kosten has refuted a line recommended by Marin. Guess what, that happens all the time in chess theory, often before a book even has been published. Now there are three paths you may follow (and, how nice, you may try them all).
2a) Refute Kosten's refutation.
2b) Find a good alternative for Black before 8.Nd2.
2c) Develop a Ponziani repertoire based on Kosten's line and beat all those s**kers that follow Marin blindly.

But I assure you that whining like you do in this thread will not bring you one inch further. And yes, I am very serious. Let me give an example.
Five years ago I bought Williams' book on the Classical Dutch. After working my way through it I 1) decided not to follow any of his recommendations 2) felt that I understood the opening way better than before.
So I am happy I bought it.
One last question: is your glass always half empty?
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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drkodos
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Re: Beating The Open Games 2nd Edition
Reply #7 - 06/26/08 at 20:10:11
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Jacob Aagaard wrote on 06/26/08 at 08:09:00:
Marin's purpose with the update was not to cover every existing move, but to provide the readers with the information they need to know. Random playable moves in less important openings are played all the time and it makes simply no sense to cover them all in a repertoire book, as no one would be able to remember it all anyway.

Mihail analysed 10.Qd2 in the King's Gambit because it was an important line, but ignored various lines that he found unimportant. In the first edition this included a move played by Baklan in the Exchange Ruy Lopez. It was then claimed that Mihail had overlooked this move, I think it was a random h3 at some point, but those who claimed this, had not spotted that Mihail had played Baklan after he had played this h3 move the first time, but before finishing the book. Baklan did not repeat this "dangerous innovation" and Mihail did not find it significant enough to include in the book.

Even when we ruthlessly cut away 95% of all material for the Sveshnikov Reloaded, we ended with a 300 page book on one of many lines in the Sicilian. In his two books Mihail is covering all of 1.e4 e5 from Black's perspective. To be able to do so you absolutely have to make some choices, and there is nothing that suggests to me that a normal move in the Ponziani covered in one of the many sources Mihail used for his book, should warrant special attention.

Jacob Aagaard, Quality Chess


Your calling 8 Nd2 a normal move? Tony Kosten analyzed it and thinks it may refute that line of the Ponziani for Black!

Also, I agree that Marin used many sources in this book BUT he didn't use the right sources! Why didn't he use Play the Open Games as Black, Play 1 e4 e5, The Chess Advantage in Black and White, etc? Most other authors use these type of sources. Marin used a lot of sources like Akiba Rubinstein: Uncrowned King which don't help you write a repertoire book.    



Everyone need be a lemming?
  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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Re: Beating The Open Games 2nd Edition
Reply #6 - 06/26/08 at 16:39:27
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Jacob Aagaard wrote on 06/26/08 at 08:09:00:
Marin's purpose with the update was not to cover every existing move, but to provide the readers with the information they need to know. Random playable moves in less important openings are played all the time and it makes simply no sense to cover them all in a repertoire book, as no one would be able to remember it all anyway.

Mihail analysed 10.Qd2 in the King's Gambit because it was an important line, but ignored various lines that he found unimportant. In the first edition this included a move played by Baklan in the Exchange Ruy Lopez. It was then claimed that Mihail had overlooked this move, I think it was a random h3 at some point, but those who claimed this, had not spotted that Mihail had played Baklan after he had played this h3 move the first time, but before finishing the book. Baklan did not repeat this "dangerous innovation" and Mihail did not find it significant enough to include in the book.

Even when we ruthlessly cut away 95% of all material for the Sveshnikov Reloaded, we ended with a 300 page book on one of many lines in the Sicilian. In his two books Mihail is covering all of 1.e4 e5 from Black's perspective. To be able to do so you absolutely have to make some choices, and there is nothing that suggests to me that a normal move in the Ponziani covered in one of the many sources Mihail used for his book, should warrant special attention.

Jacob Aagaard, Quality Chess


Your calling 8 Nd2 a normal move? Tony Kosten analyzed it and thinks it may refute that line of the Ponziani for Black!

Also, I agree that Marin used many sources in this book BUT he didn't use the right sources! Why didn't he use Play the Open Games as Black, Play 1 e4 e5, The Chess Advantage in Black and White, etc? Most other authors use these type of sources. Marin used a lot of sources like Akiba Rubinstein: Uncrowned King which don't help you write a repertoire book.   
  
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