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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Beating The Open Games 2nd Edition (Read 55989 times)
rossia
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Re: Beating The Open Games 2nd Edition
Reply #95 - 07/17/08 at 06:38:56
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(10) Grabinsky,Vladimir (2316) - Potapov,Alexander1 (2530) [C44]
Pardubice op-A Pardubice (1), 22.07.2005
[Kritz]




1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.c3 Nf6 5.e5 Ne4 6.Qe2 f5

[6...d5 7.exd6 f5 8.Nbd2 Bxd6 9.Nxe4 fxe4 10.Qxe4+ Qe7 11.Qxe7+ Kxe7 12.cxd4² Of course Black has good chances of winning back the d4-pawn, but in the meanwhile White can perhaps obtain other strategic advantages.]

7.exf6

[7.cxd4 d5! 8.Nc3 Be6„ White has to spend a lot of time developing the bishop from the f1–square. The position offers sufficient opportunities to both sides. ]

7...d5 8.Nbd2 d3

[8...Qxf6 9.Nxe4 dxe4 10.Qxe4+ Qe7 11.Qxe7+ Bxe7 12.Nxd4 Nxd4 13.cxd4 Be6 14.Be3²]

9.Qe3! A very strong move! The d3-pawn can always be taken later.

[9.Qxd3 doesn't bring him an advantage. 9...Nxf6=]

9...Bc5

[9...Qxf6 10.Nxe4 dxe4 11.Qxe4+ Qe7 12.Bxd3±;
9...Bf5 10.Bxd3 Qxf6 (10...Bc5 11.fxg7 Rg8 12.Nd4±) 11.Nxe4 dxe4 12.Bxe4 0–0–0 13.0–0±]

10.fxg7 Rg8 11.Nd4 Qe7

[11...Rxg7 12.Bxd3 Bf5 13.0–0 Bxd4 (13...Nxd4 14.cxd4 Bd6 15.Re1!
(15.Nxe4 dxe4 16.Bxe4 Bxh2+ 17.Kxh2 Qh4+ 18.Kg1 Qxe4 19.Qxe4+ Bxe4 20.Re1 Re7± Despite everything, the presence of bishops of opposite colours increases the the risk of a draw. )
15...Qh4 16.g3! 0–0–0 17.Nxe4 dxe4 18.Bxe4 Bxe4 19.Qxe4+- Bxg3 The final attempt. 20.hxg3 Rxg3+ 21.fxg3 Qxg3+ 22.Kf1 Rf8+ 23.Ke2 Rf2+ 24.Kd1+- Almost mate, but not quite!) 14.cxd4 Qe7 15.Re1 Nd6 16.Nf3 Qxe3 17.Rxe3+± White has an extra pawn and the bishop pair.]

12.Bxd3 Nxd4

[12...Nxd2 13.Qxe7+ Bxe7 (13...Kxe7 14.Nxc6+ bxc6 15.Bxd2 Rxg7 16.0–0 Bh3 17.Rfe1+ Kf6 18.g3+-) 14.Bxd2 Nxd4 15.cxd4 Rxg7 16.g3 Bh3 17.0–0–0±]

13.cxd4 Bxd4

[13...Nxd2 14.Qxe7+ Bxe7 15.Bxd2 Rxg7 16.g3 Bh3 17.0–0–0±]

14.Qxd4! Ng3+ 15.Ne4! Material is no longer important; what matters is the king! 15...Nxh1

[15...dxe4 16.Bb5+ c6 17.hxg3 cxb5 18.Rh5 Be6 19.Bg5 Qxg7 20.Qxe4+-]

16.Bg5 Qe6 17.Kf1

[17.0–0–0!+- would have been even stronger and even more effective! Black can resign.]

17...Kf7 18.Bf6 h6 19.Re1 c5 20.Qxc5 dxe4 21.Bc4 Kxf6 22.Bxe6 Bxe6 23.Kg1 Nxf2 24.Qxf2+ Kxg7 25.Qd4+ Kg6 26.Rf1 Rae8 27.Rf6+ Kh5 28.Rxe6 Rxe6 29.Qd5+ 1–0


  
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micawber
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Re: Beating The Open Games 2nd Edition
Reply #94 - 07/17/08 at 06:31:16
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I agree with MNb. In fact we analysed this line on the forum before:

www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1182283379/0#9

The "popatov" game can be found in this thread as well, it refers to
a side variation that is not black's best.
  
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Re: Beating The Open Games 2nd Edition
Reply #93 - 07/17/08 at 02:34:36
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rossia wrote on 07/16/08 at 06:58:16:
The position can also be reached via the Scotch Gambit  (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.c3 Nf6).
After 5.e5 Black once more has the choice:

a) 5...Ne4 6.Qe2 f5 7.exf5 d5 8.Nbd2 and in the resulting complications White does have better prospects: Grabinsky,V - Potapov,A 1-0.

For once I agree with Anonymous. If you want to discuss the Ponziani, you should start a new thread. I would be pleased if you posted that game Grabinsky-Potapov, as the judgment better prospects for White looks quite debatable to me.
  

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Re: Beating The Open Games 2nd Edition
Reply #92 - 07/17/08 at 01:23:10
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rossia wrote on 07/16/08 at 06:58:16:
Let us see what Chessbase Magazine 124 has to say about line which Marin recommends against Ponziani:


Ponziani - good enough for a surprise weapon
by Leonid Kritz


By far the safest reply nowadays to 1.e4 is 1...e5. It is very difficult for White to achieve an advantage in the Petrov Defence or the Ruy Lopez. Well, it is unfortunately hardly possible to avoid the Petrov, unless you play the King's Gambit or something similar. On the other hand, there are several possible ways of side-stepping the Ruy Lopez. The most frequently seen deviations are the Scotch Game and the Giuoco Piano. But unfortunately Black can easily equalise in both these openings with correct play. And as White, there is an enormous amount of theory to be known in both these openings so as not to be at a disadvantage. In other words, you have to do a lot of work and in spite of that you cannot get anything more than equality. So in such situations it is sometimes better and more efficient to look out a rare opening which leads to interesting positions and at the same time can prove a somewhat unpleasant surprise for your opponent. One such opening is the Ponziani Opening.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.c3!? - and there we have the Ponziani.

White's idea is obvious: he wants to play 4.d4 and then, after 4...exd4, to recapture with the pawn - 5.cxd4 - in order to secure for himself an advantage in the centre. Black has two ways in which he can disturb White's plan, the moves 3...d5 and 3...Nf6.

C) The solid main continuation 3...Nf6

4.d4! Of course, what else? It is incredible but  roughly 1/5 of games continued with 4.d3?... Of course the Ponziani should not be played so passively!
Black can now choose between 4...Nxe4 and 4...exd4.

C1) 4...exd4

The position can also be reached via the Scotch Gambit  (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.c3 Nf6).
After 5.e5 Black once more has the choice:

a) 5...Ne4 6.Qe2 f5 7.exf5 d5 8.Nbd2 and in the resulting complications White does have better prospects: Grabinsky,V - Potapov,A 1-0.

b) 5...Nd5  6.cxd4 ¥b4+ 7.Bd2 Bxd2+ 8.Qxd2 0-0 8...d6 9.Nc3 Nxc3 10.Qxc3 boils down to the same variation.

9.Nc3 Nxc3 10.Qxc3! d6 11.Be2

In Isgandarova,K - Ozturk,K ½-½ White had a slight advantage, which is of course insufficient to achieve anything real if Black plays correctly . But after all, where else can you find a genuine plus in the 1.e4 e5 openings?

C2) 4...Nxe4

5.d5 Ne7 6.Nxe5 Ng6 7.Qd4 Nor does 7.Qf3 Qe7 change anything.

On the other hand 7.Nxg6 can be interesting. After 7...hxg6 8.Qe2 Qe7 9.Bf4 d6 10.Na3 Nf6 11.0-0-0 White got a certain amount of initiative in Delchev,A - Plachetka,J 1-0.

7...Qe7 8.Qxe4 Qxe5 9.Qxe5 Nxe5

10.Bf4 Bd6 10...d6 is also very solid, but White has at least secured for himself a slight advantage in space; 11.Na3 a6, the position is level, but there is still play in it: Gu Xiaobing - Xie Jun 1-0.
11.Bg3 0-0 12.Nd2 f5!

A very precise move!
13.f3 b6 14.0-0-0 Bb7 15.Nc4 Nxc4 16.Bxc4

The position is approximately level; White's winning chances are based solely on the bad bishop on b7. If Black solves this problem successfully, which will not be all that difficult, he will reach equality: Kleeschaetzky,R - Slobodjan,R ½-½.


As a conclusion I can state that the Ponziani is perfectly usable as a surprise weapon. Black has to find some accurate moves. Little inaccuracies allow White to achieve a secure advantage. But of course the Ponziani will not do as a main opening; at a certain point your opponents will begin to prepare for it properly and to head only for solid lines, and then it will no longer be fun. But if you play it from time to time, the Ponziani is a dangerous weapon.



This has nothing to do with what we are discussing!
  
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rossia
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Re: Beating The Open Games 2nd Edition
Reply #91 - 07/16/08 at 06:58:16
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Let us see what Chessbase Magazine 124 has to say about line which Marin recommends against Ponziani:


Ponziani - good enough for a surprise weapon
by Leonid Kritz


By far the safest reply nowadays to 1.e4 is 1...e5. It is very difficult for White to achieve an advantage in the Petrov Defence or the Ruy Lopez. Well, it is unfortunately hardly possible to avoid the Petrov, unless you play the King's Gambit or something similar. On the other hand, there are several possible ways of side-stepping the Ruy Lopez. The most frequently seen deviations are the Scotch Game and the Giuoco Piano. But unfortunately Black can easily equalise in both these openings with correct play. And as White, there is an enormous amount of theory to be known in both these openings so as not to be at a disadvantage. In other words, you have to do a lot of work and in spite of that you cannot get anything more than equality. So in such situations it is sometimes better and more efficient to look out a rare opening which leads to interesting positions and at the same time can prove a somewhat unpleasant surprise for your opponent. One such opening is the Ponziani Opening.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.c3!? - and there we have the Ponziani.

White's idea is obvious: he wants to play 4.d4 and then, after 4...exd4, to recapture with the pawn - 5.cxd4 - in order to secure for himself an advantage in the centre. Black has two ways in which he can disturb White's plan, the moves 3...d5 and 3...Nf6.

C) The solid main continuation 3...Nf6

4.d4! Of course, what else? It is incredible but  roughly 1/5 of games continued with 4.d3?... Of course the Ponziani should not be played so passively!
Black can now choose between 4...Nxe4 and 4...exd4.

C1) 4...exd4

The position can also be reached via the Scotch Gambit  (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.c3 Nf6).
After 5.e5 Black once more has the choice:

a) 5...Ne4 6.Qe2 f5 7.exf5 d5 8.Nbd2 and in the resulting complications White does have better prospects: Grabinsky,V - Potapov,A 1-0.

b) 5...Nd5  6.cxd4 ¥b4+ 7.Bd2 Bxd2+ 8.Qxd2 0-0 8...d6 9.Nc3 Nxc3 10.Qxc3 boils down to the same variation.

9.Nc3 Nxc3 10.Qxc3! d6 11.Be2

In Isgandarova,K - Ozturk,K ½-½ White had a slight advantage, which is of course insufficient to achieve anything real if Black plays correctly . But after all, where else can you find a genuine plus in the 1.e4 e5 openings?

C2) 4...Nxe4

5.d5 Ne7 6.Nxe5 Ng6 7.Qd4 Nor does 7.Qf3 Qe7 change anything.

On the other hand 7.Nxg6 can be interesting. After 7...hxg6 8.Qe2 Qe7 9.Bf4 d6 10.Na3 Nf6 11.0-0-0 White got a certain amount of initiative in Delchev,A - Plachetka,J 1-0.

7...Qe7 8.Qxe4 Qxe5 9.Qxe5 Nxe5

10.Bf4 Bd6 10...d6 is also very solid, but White has at least secured for himself a slight advantage in space; 11.Na3 a6, the position is level, but there is still play in it: Gu Xiaobing - Xie Jun 1-0.
11.Bg3 0-0 12.Nd2 f5!

A very precise move!
13.f3 b6 14.0-0-0 Bb7 15.Nc4 Nxc4 16.Bxc4

The position is approximately level; White's winning chances are based solely on the bad bishop on b7. If Black solves this problem successfully, which will not be all that difficult, he will reach equality: Kleeschaetzky,R - Slobodjan,R ½-½.


As a conclusion I can state that the Ponziani is perfectly usable as a surprise weapon. Black has to find some accurate moves. Little inaccuracies allow White to achieve a secure advantage. But of course the Ponziani will not do as a main opening; at a certain point your opponents will begin to prepare for it properly and to head only for solid lines, and then it will no longer be fun. But if you play it from time to time, the Ponziani is a dangerous weapon.

  
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Re: Beating The Open Games 2nd Edition
Reply #90 - 07/15/08 at 20:55:47
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Antillian wrote on 07/15/08 at 20:37:14:
Quote:

IM John Cox, of course Marin's repertoire book doesn't recommend ALL the same lines ad any other repertoire book does but most of the line he recommends are also analyzed in at least 1 of the other main 3 1 e4 e5 repertoire books, Play the Open games as Black by John Emms, The Chess Advantage in Black and White by Larry Kaufman, and Play 1 e4 e5! by Nigel Davies.

Here is a list of Marin's recommendations and which of the other 3 books mentioned above they are also recommended in:

Italian Game: 3...Bc5                                Kaufman
Scotch Game: Mieses 8...Nb6                     Emms
Goring Gambit: 4...d5                                Emms, Davies
Scotch Gambit: 5...Bc5                              Kaufman
Spanish Four Knights: 5...Bb4                    Davies
Scotch Four Knights: 4...Bb4                      Emms, Davies
Belgrade Gambit: 5...Be7                          Emms, Kaufman, Davies
Glek System: 4...Bc5                                none
Ponziani Opening: 3...Nf6 4 d4 Nxe4           Emms
King's Gambit: Declined, 2...Bc5                Davies
Vienna Game: 2...Nc6                               none
Bishop's Opening: 2...Nc6                          Kaufman
Center Game 4...g6                                  Davies
Danish Gambit: 3...d5                               Emms, Davies

So IM John Cox, do you still think that Marin's repertoire book recommends different lines than these 3 books?  


How do you know this? You mean you actually bought Marin, Kaufman, Daives and Emms?  Shocked

Oh silly me, of course not. You probably posted a few queries on this website to find out what each of these other books recommend?  Embarrassed


Yes, I bought a copy of all 4 of these books! Basically all of the chapters in these books are useful for my purposes. The reason I ask what certain books recommend is because I only need like one chapter and I don't want to have to waste money on buying an entire book only for 1 chapter!
  
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Re: Beating The Open Games 2nd Edition
Reply #89 - 07/15/08 at 20:37:14
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Quote:

IM John Cox, of course Marin's repertoire book doesn't recommend ALL the same lines ad any other repertoire book does but most of the line he recommends are also analyzed in at least 1 of the other main 3 1 e4 e5 repertoire books, Play the Open games as Black by John Emms, The Chess Advantage in Black and White by Larry Kaufman, and Play 1 e4 e5! by Nigel Davies.

Here is a list of Marin's recommendations and which of the other 3 books mentioned above they are also recommended in:

Italian Game: 3...Bc5                                Kaufman
Scotch Game: Mieses 8...Nb6                     Emms
Goring Gambit: 4...d5                                Emms, Davies
Scotch Gambit: 5...Bc5                              Kaufman
Spanish Four Knights: 5...Bb4                    Davies
Scotch Four Knights: 4...Bb4                      Emms, Davies
Belgrade Gambit: 5...Be7                          Emms, Kaufman, Davies
Glek System: 4...Bc5                                none
Ponziani Opening: 3...Nf6 4 d4 Nxe4           Emms
King's Gambit: Declined, 2...Bc5                Davies
Vienna Game: 2...Nc6                               none
Bishop's Opening: 2...Nc6                          Kaufman
Center Game 4...g6                                  Davies
Danish Gambit: 3...d5                               Emms, Davies

So IM John Cox, do you still think that Marin's repertoire book recommends different lines than these 3 books? 


How do you know this? You mean you actually bought Marin, Kaufman, Daives and Emms?  Shocked

Oh silly me, of course not. You probably posted a few queries on this website to find out what each of these other books recommend?  Embarrassed
  

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Re: Beating The Open Games 2nd Edition
Reply #88 - 07/15/08 at 20:30:11
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IMJohnCox wrote on 07/15/08 at 11:58:28:
Why on earth WOULD Marin use sources which offer different repertoires for Black to his? I can see a case for checking popular White books so that readers are given suitable replies to the methods recommended therein, but what Davies and Emms have to do with Marin's book I don't see.


IM John Cox, of course Marin's repertoire book doesn't recommend ALL the same lines ad any other repertoire book does but most of the line he recommends are also analyzed in at least 1 of the other main 3 1 e4 e5 repertoire books, Play the Open games as Black by John Emms, The Chess Advantage in Black and White by Larry Kaufman, and Play 1 e4 e5! by Nigel Davies.

Here is a list of Marin's recommendations and which of the other 3 books mentioned above they are also recommended in:

Italian Game: 3...Bc5                                Kaufman
Scotch Game: Mieses 8...Nb6                     Emms
Goring Gambit: 4...d5                                Emms, Davies
Scotch Gambit: 5...Bc5                              Kaufman
Spanish Four Knights: 5...Bb4                    Davies
Scotch Four Knights: 4...Bb4                      Emms, Davies
Belgrade Gambit: 5...Be7                          Emms, Kaufman, Davies
Glek System: 4...Bc5                                none
Ponziani Opening: 3...Nf6 4 d4 Nxe4           Emms
King's Gambit: Declined, 2...Bc5                Davies
Vienna Game: 2...Nc6                               none
Bishop's Opening: 2...Nc6                          Kaufman
Center Game 4...g6                                  Davies
Danish Gambit: 3...d5                               Emms, Davies

So IM John Cox, do you still think that Marin's repertoire book recommends different lines than these 3 books?  
  
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Re: Beating The Open Games 2nd Edition
Reply #87 - 07/15/08 at 18:24:10
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MNb wrote on 07/15/08 at 15:57:32:
Quote:
These are just 2 examples of many more i can show!


Anonymous is well underway with his book the 64 worst omissions of Mihail Marin.

Quote:
I asked GM Tony Kosten his thoughts on Aagaards analysis and he said, "I don't think it is as easy for Black as Jacob seems to think, Maybe 10 Qf3 is even more accurate."

Enough said!


No, by far not enough said. I already wrote which three steps you can take from this point. As you seemed to have missed it dismally, I'll repeat it:

1. refute GM Kosten's analysis.
2. deviate as Black at an earlier point.
3. play the Ponziani yourself.

All three imply that you have to do work yourself of course. This might be your real problem, considering the 90% of your posts containing "What does X recommend against the Outer-Mongolian Defence of the Tierra del Fuegian Attack?"


Oh no! I thought I was the only one who knew about the Outer-Mongolian Defense of the Tierra del Fuegian Attack  Sad. Great, now I've got to go find another answer to 2.a4.
  
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Re: Beating The Open Games 2nd Edition
Reply #86 - 07/15/08 at 17:22:27
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Quote:
I have finally decided to give this post a rest!


Lips Sealed

Quote:
IMJohnCox wrote on 07/15/08 at 11:58:28:
Why on earth WOULD Marin use sources which offer different repertoires for Black to his? I can see a case for checking popular White books so that readers are given suitable replies to the methods recommended therein, but what Davies and Emms have to do with Marin's book I don't see.


Are you serious IM John Cox? I would expect other like Bibs to make dumb comments like this but I expected far better from you! Most of the lines Marin recommends are also recommended in either Play 1 e4 e5, Play the Open Games as Black, The Chess Advantage in Black and White, etc. Also, Marin didn't look at White repertoire books!

For example, after 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Bc5 4 0-0 Nf6 5 d4!?, Marin recommends 5...exd4 and spends two whole chapters discussing it! He says 5...Bxd4 is too risky but if he had looked at Larry Kaufman's The Chess Advantage in Black and White, he would have realized that 5...Bxd4 is not to risky and basically refutes this line for White and could have just recommended 5...Bxd4 and analyzed it in about half a page instead of giving two chapters on 5...exd4!

Also, another example is after 1 e4 e5 2 f4 Bc5 3 Nf3 d6 4 Nc3 Nf6 5 Bc4 Nc6 6 d3 Bg4 7 h3 Bxf3 8 Qxf3, he recommends 8...exf4 and says 8...Nd4 is bad because of 9 Qg3 and then only gives 9 Nxc2+, 9... Qe7, and 9...exf4 for Black, but if he had used Play 1 e4 e5!, he would have realized that 9...0-0! is ok for Black!

These are just 2 examples of many more i can show!


Whiny whiny whiny!   Smiley
  
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Re: Beating The Open Games 2nd Edition
Reply #85 - 07/15/08 at 15:58:35
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MNb wrote on 07/15/08 at 15:57:32:
Quote:
These are just 2 examples of many more i can show!


Anonymous is well underway with his book the 64 worst omissions of Mihail Marin.


A topic of vast importance and interest, no doubt, to one or two people.  But in fact, Anonymous is way short of 64.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Re: Beating The Open Games 2nd Edition
Reply #84 - 07/15/08 at 15:57:32
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Quote:
These are just 2 examples of many more i can show!


Anonymous is well underway with his book the 64 worst omissions of Mihail Marin.

Quote:
I asked GM Tony Kosten his thoughts on Aagaards analysis and he said, "I don't think it is as easy for Black as Jacob seems to think, Maybe 10 Qf3 is even more accurate."

Enough said!


No, by far not enough said. I already wrote which three steps you can take from this point. As you seemed to have missed it dismally, I'll repeat it:

1. refute GM Kosten's analysis.
2. deviate as Black at an earlier point.
3. play the Ponziani yourself.

All three imply that you have to do work yourself of course. This might be your real problem, considering the 90% of your posts containing "What does X recommend against the Outer-Mongolian Defence of the Tierra del Fuegian Attack?"
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Beating The Open Games 2nd Edition
Reply #83 - 07/15/08 at 15:56:30
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Quote:
Jacob Aagaard wrote on 07/03/08 at 17:22:33:
It seems that there continues to be a case to answer after this refutation of the Marin recommendation in the Ponziani, which Tony Kosten was stunned to see was not mentioned in either the first - and later a reader was upset not to find in the second edition.First of all, our books are not written to counter ChessPublishing.com or to give answers to their readers in particular, but to offer the best possible weaponry for the practical player. If you want completeness, get a database. If you want an opinion, get our books. At least, this is the philosophy we live by. Like everyone else, we do at times come short of our ideals. However, this is not one of those moments.The suggested refutation has been played in three unimportant games from 1997 to 2004 and looks - and seems to be - completely harmless. As a repertoire book of 1500 pages is undesirable for all, Mihail ignored such options.To prove our case, I have decided to offer a closer look. This does not mean that I will do so everytime someone is concerned, but I felt like it.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.c3 Nf6 4.d4 Nxe4 5.d5 Ne7 6.Nxe5 Ng6 7.Nxg6 hxg6 8.Nd2 This is supposedly the refutation, though Kosten never says anything of that sort. I called it a random move, which is exactly what it is. Possible, equal among equals. I will give a few recommendations for the upset reader as consolation. 8...Nxd2 Looks fine to me, but not the only move. [8...Nc5 might be perfectly acceptable as well.; 8...Nf6 9.Nc4 This is supposedly dangerous, with the idea d6. I cannot see this. (On 9.Nf3 Bc5= looks like an obvious improvement over the eccentric 9...Rh5, as mentioned by Tony.) 9...Qe7+ (9...d6 with moves such as 10.Be2 Be7 11.0–0 0–0 12.Re1 Re8 is not giving White anything to speak about. Fritz is wrong here, for once. But yes, it does look a bit passive.) 10.Be2 b5 11.Ne3 Bb7 12.0–0 Qc5 looks very unclear to me, and in no way worse for Black.] 9.Bxd2 Bc5 [9...Bd6 and; 9...b6 are both ok for Black, as far as I can see.] 10.Bd3 d6 11.Qf3 Qh4 This is one possible improvement. [11...Qe7+ 12.Kf1 might actually give White a slight edge, as in Tony's Game.] 12.0–0–0 Bg4 13.Rde1+ [13.Qe4+ Kf8 14.f3 Bd7=] 13...Kf8 14.Qf4 Bd7 and the variation has been refuted into a very safe endgame for Black. =

And no, I don't see this as important enough to make the book, though I am sure that equally unimportant lines probably made the book...

Jacob Aagaard, Quality Chess


I asked GM Tony Kosten his thoughts on Aagaards analysis and he said, "I don't think it is as easy for Black as Jacob seems to think, Maybe 10 Qf3 is even more accurate."

Enough said!


Start a Ponziani thread for discussion of this point.  It really isn't relevant to the topic of this thread -- a point that has already been made here many times.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Anonymous
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Re: Beating The Open Games 2nd Edition
Reply #82 - 07/15/08 at 15:38:31
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Jacob Aagaard wrote on 07/03/08 at 17:22:33:
It seems that there continues to be a case to answer after this refutation of the Marin recommendation in the Ponziani, which Tony Kosten was stunned to see was not mentioned in either the first - and later a reader was upset not to find in the second edition.First of all, our books are not written to counter ChessPublishing.com or to give answers to their readers in particular, but to offer the best possible weaponry for the practical player. If you want completeness, get a database. If you want an opinion, get our books. At least, this is the philosophy we live by. Like everyone else, we do at times come short of our ideals. However, this is not one of those moments.The suggested refutation has been played in three unimportant games from 1997 to 2004 and looks - and seems to be - completely harmless. As a repertoire book of 1500 pages is undesirable for all, Mihail ignored such options.To prove our case, I have decided to offer a closer look. This does not mean that I will do so everytime someone is concerned, but I felt like it.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.c3 Nf6 4.d4 Nxe4 5.d5 Ne7 6.Nxe5 Ng6 7.Nxg6 hxg6 8.Nd2 This is supposedly the refutation, though Kosten never says anything of that sort. I called it a random move, which is exactly what it is. Possible, equal among equals. I will give a few recommendations for the upset reader as consolation. 8...Nxd2 Looks fine to me, but not the only move. [8...Nc5 might be perfectly acceptable as well.; 8...Nf6 9.Nc4 This is supposedly dangerous, with the idea d6. I cannot see this. (On 9.Nf3 Bc5= looks like an obvious improvement over the eccentric 9...Rh5, as mentioned by Tony.) 9...Qe7+ (9...d6 with moves such as 10.Be2 Be7 11.0–0 0–0 12.Re1 Re8 is not giving White anything to speak about. Fritz is wrong here, for once. But yes, it does look a bit passive.) 10.Be2 b5 11.Ne3 Bb7 12.0–0 Qc5 looks very unclear to me, and in no way worse for Black.] 9.Bxd2 Bc5 [9...Bd6 and; 9...b6 are both ok for Black, as far as I can see.] 10.Bd3 d6 11.Qf3 Qh4 This is one possible improvement. [11...Qe7+ 12.Kf1 might actually give White a slight edge, as in Tony's Game.] 12.0–0–0 Bg4 13.Rde1+ [13.Qe4+ Kf8 14.f3 Bd7=] 13...Kf8 14.Qf4 Bd7 and the variation has been refuted into a very safe endgame for Black. =

And no, I don't see this as important enough to make the book, though I am sure that equally unimportant lines probably made the book...

Jacob Aagaard, Quality Chess


I asked GM Tony Kosten his thoughts on Aagaards analysis and he said, "I don't think it is as easy for Black as Jacob seems to think, Maybe 10 Qf3 is even more accurate."

Enough said!
  
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Re: Beating The Open Games 2nd Edition
Reply #81 - 07/15/08 at 15:31:49
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IMJohnCox wrote on 07/15/08 at 11:58:28:
Why on earth WOULD Marin use sources which offer different repertoires for Black to his? I can see a case for checking popular White books so that readers are given suitable replies to the methods recommended therein, but what Davies and Emms have to do with Marin's book I don't see.


Are you serious IM John Cox? I would expect other like Bibs to make dumb comments like this but I expected far better from you! Most of the lines Marin recommends are also recommended in either Play 1 e4 e5, Play the Open Games as Black, The Chess Advantage in Black and White, etc. Also, Marin didn't look at White repertoire books!

For example, after 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Bc5 4 0-0 Nf6 5 d4!?, Marin recommends 5...exd4 and spends two whole chapters discussing it! He says 5...Bxd4 is too risky but if he had looked at Larry Kaufman's The Chess Advantage in Black and White, he would have realized that 5...Bxd4 is not to risky and basically refutes this line for White and could have just recommended 5...Bxd4 and analyzed it in about half a page instead of giving two chapters on 5...exd4!

Also, another example is after 1 e4 e5 2 f4 Bc5 3 Nf3 d6 4 Nc3 Nf6 5 Bc4 Nc6 6 d3 Bg4 7 h3 Bxf3 8 Qxf3, he recommends 8...exf4 and says 8...Nd4 is bad because of 9 Qg3 and then only gives 9 Nxc2+, 9... Qe7, and 9...exf4 for Black, but if he had used Play 1 e4 e5!, he would have realized that 9...0-0! is ok for Black!

These are just 2 examples of many more i can show!
  
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