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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Theoretically importent Dragon game (Read 10332 times)
smurfo
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Re: Theoretically importent Dragon game
Reply #17 - 01/05/09 at 21:36:33
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The main champions of Topalov's line used to be the Azeri players, Guissenov (sp?) and Mamedov.  Nowadays, Pogonina (? Russian women's player, 2400+) plays it a fair bit.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Theoretically importent Dragon game
Reply #16 - 01/02/09 at 12:58:42
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About Topalov line, can white realy prevent this by early Bb3 (that allows a similar variation where the rook is at a8 and white king not castled)? Only way seems to be play h4 instead of 0-0-0 but than we are back to  10 h4 line where we have the Soltis defence. True, white can fore a draw there in Bh6 variation but if Topalov line is forced draw than it doesnt matter.

I also meet 10 g4 once in a long game and lost but it had nothing to do with the opening since I actually had the better position before I made a blunder.

I was thinking of playing Topalov line a few years ago but I failed to find any up to date theory. Any suggestion where to start or some model games to analyse?
  
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Re: Theoretically importent Dragon game
Reply #15 - 01/02/09 at 06:06:53
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Well, perhaps, but it's just one of those Dragon endgames we tragics have to play!  As an aside, I had a game at the Olympiad in November, can't remember the white player's name off the top of my head, but he tried to avoid the Queen swap in the 13.e5 line after 14...Bc6, and got a horrible position.
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: Theoretically importent Dragon game
Reply #14 - 01/02/09 at 01:59:27
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smurfo wrote on 01/02/09 at 01:50:52:
It's hard to believe that ...b4 can really be that strong, but there's no doubt that a well-prepared dragon player would have the edge by unleashing it as a surprise.  Still, I play enough crazy sacs that I'll be taking a closer look at your analyses before unleashing the beast in my next tournament.

I still think the best line against 9.Bc4 is Topalov's dragon with ...Bd7, ...Nxd4 and ...b5 - it's been analysed to a forced draw by some theoreticians.  White can try to prevent this line with an early Bb3 or h4; see for example my game Berg-Smerdon, where black should have enough chances to hold with ease (though I didn't!).


I like the Topalov variation too except for the  13.e5 exd5 14.Bxe5 Bc6 15.Qxd8 Rfxd8 16.Rxd8+ Rxd8 17.Rd1 line which although is roughly balanced and although Dearing notes (after giving several more moves) that "both sides still have opportunities to outplay their opponent" I still find fairly boring.
  
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Re: Theoretically importent Dragon game
Reply #13 - 01/02/09 at 01:50:52
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It's hard to believe that ...b4 can really be that strong, but there's no doubt that a well-prepared dragon player would have the edge by unleashing it as a surprise.  Still, I play enough crazy sacs that I'll be taking a closer look at your analyses before unleashing the beast in my next tournament.

I still think the best line against 9.Bc4 is Topalov's dragon with ...Bd7, ...Nxd4 and ...b5 - it's been analysed to a forced draw by some theoreticians.  White can try to prevent this line with an early Bb3 or h4; see for example my game Berg-Smerdon, where black should have enough chances to hold with ease (though I didn't!).
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: Theoretically importent Dragon game
Reply #12 - 12/31/08 at 19:07:49
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Your variations look very plausible and indeed it looks like Black retains excellent long term compensation.  White's doubled pawns and inability to find a permanently safe place for his King seem to give Black enough play.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Theoretically importent Dragon game
Reply #11 - 12/31/08 at 10:19:51
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1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4.
Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. Bb3 Rc8 11.
O-O-O Ne5 12. Kb1 Nc4 13. Bxc4 Rxc4 14. g4 b5 15. b3 b4 16. bxc4 bxc3 17. Qxc3
Qc7 18. h4 h5 19. g5 {interesting suggestion} (19. gxh5 Nxh5 {
also looks critical}) 19... Nh7 20. Rhf1 (20. f4 Bg4 21. Rc1 Qb7+ 22. Ka1 Qxe4
{about equal}) (20. Rd2 Rc8 21. Qd3 Qb7+ (21... Nf8 22. c3 Ne6 23. Rb2 (23. Ne2
Nc5 24. Bxc5 Qxc5 25. Nd4) 23... Nc5 24. Qc2 a6 25. Rb4 Qd8 26. Ka1 a5 27. Rbb1
a4 {and i think white is better}) 22. Kc1 (22. Ka1 Be6 (22... Nf8 23. c3 Ne6
24. Rb1 Qa6 25. Ne2 Nc5 26. Bxc5 Rxc5 27. Nd4 Rxc4 28. Rdb2 Kh7 29. Rb8 Be6 30.
R1b3 Be5 {unclear}) 23. Qb3 Qd7 24. Qb5 Qc7 25. Rb1 Nf8 26. Rb2 Nd7 27. c3 Bxc4
28. Qb7 Nb6 29. Qxc7 Rxc7 {and white is slighty better}) 22... Qa6 23. c3 Rxc4
{unclear}) 20... Rc8 21. Kc1 (21. f4 Qb7+ 22. Qb3 Qxe4 {about equal}) (21. Ka1
Nf8 22. Rb1 Be6 23. Rb2 Nd7 24. Rfb1 Nb6 {about equal}) 21... Nf8 22. f4 Bg4
23. Rde1 Nd7 {about equal} *

  
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Re: Theoretically importent Dragon game
Reply #10 - 12/30/08 at 22:15:30
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If this variation works for Black then it would save him a lot of headaches in the 12...Re8 and 12...a6 variations but I have my doubts.  What if White tries, after:

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. O-O-O Rc8 11. Bb3 Ne5 12. Kb1 Nc4 13. Bxc4 Rxc4 14. g4 b5 15. b3 b4 16. bxc4 bxc3 17. Qxc3 Qc7

The move 18.h4!?with the usual idea of going to h5?  Letting the pawn get to h5 looks pretty risky for Black to me but 18...h5 19.g5 looks a little uncomfortable as well.  My first thought for Black was that he might be able to play 19...Nh7 with the idea ...Rc8 and ...Nf8 and ...Ne6, but should White play 20.Rhf1 and f5 then that idea is stopped.  Maybe I'm totally on the wrong track here though so I'd appreciate others thoughts on this.
  
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Re: Theoretically importent Dragon game
Reply #9 - 12/28/08 at 19:53:50
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It appears that on other importent game in this variation has been played in Swedish Elite. Nithander has once agian the white pieces and introduces a similar idea, but improved powerfull novetly by deflecting blacks knight to h5 before Ka1. White wont hat game but there are improvments.

[Event "Elit(Farsta-Manhem)"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2008.12.05"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Nithander, Victor"]
[Black "Magnusson, Jorgen"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B78"]
[WhiteElo "2436"]
[BlackElo "2295"]
[PlyCount "81"]
[EventDate "2008.??.??"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 Nc6 8. Qd2
O-O 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. O-O-O Rc8 11. Bb3 Ne5 12. Kb1 Nc4 13. Bxc4 Rxc4 14. g4 b5
15. b3 b4 16. bxc4 bxc3 17. Qxc3 Qc7 18. g5 (18. Ka1 Rc8 19. Rb1 Be8 20. h4 Nd7
21. h5 Nb6 22. hxg6 fxg6 {was Nithander-Carlsson (black won)}) 18... Nh5 19.
Ka1 {Typical computer prepared move. No human player would ever consider
moving the king to this square in over the board game!} (19. Kc1 Be5 {
is the only move in New in Chess yearbook 85}) 19... Be5 {
appers to be a mistake} (19... Be6 20. Rb1 d5 {seems to be only move} 21. c5 (
21. Rb4 dxe4 22. fxe4 a5 23. Rb2 (23. Rb5 Bxc4 24. Rxa5 Rc8 25. Rb1 Qxh2) 23...
Bxc4) 21... dxe4 22. fxe4 Qe5 23. c6 (23. Rhf1 Qxe4 24. c6 Be5 25. Rb5 Ng7 26.
Bf2 Nf5 27. Rxe5 Qxe5 28. Re1 Qd6 29. Nxf5 gxf5 30. Bd4 Qd5 31. Kb1 f4 32. h4
Rc8 33. Bh8 f6 34. gxf6 Qxc6 35. fxe7 Qxc3 36. Bxc3 Kf7 37. e8=Q+ Rxe8 38. Rf1
Kg6 39. Rxf4 Re7 40. Kb2 Rb7+ 41. Ka3 Kh5 42. Be1 Rc7 43. Kb2 Rb7+ 44. Ka1 Bf7)
23... Qxe4 24. Rhf1 Qd5 25. Rb2 Rc8) 20. Rb1 Rc8 21. Rb2 Qxc4 {
if black has to excange queens here, there is something wrong with hes position
} 22. Qxc4 Rxc4 23. Rd1 Ba4 24. Rd2 Nf4 25. Kb1 Rc7 26. Rb4 Bd7 27. Rb8+ Kg7
28. Ne2 Nxe2 29. Rxe2 a6 30. Rd2 Rc4 31. f4 Bc3 32. Rd3 e5 33. Rb3 Bd4 34. Bxd4
exd4 35. Rd2 Bb5 36. a3 Ra4 37. Kb2 Bc6 38. Rb4 Rxb4+ 39. axb4 Bxe4 40. Rxd4 d5
41. c4 1-0
« Last Edit: 12/28/08 at 22:16:06 by bragesjo »  
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bragesjo
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Re: Theoretically importent Dragon game
Reply #8 - 09/16/08 at 09:33:44
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Thanks, that for the reply, it made my look at the right direction!
I thought that Qh2 simply won for white at move 18 but it appears tha black hold the position according to Rybka 3.

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6
5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Bc4 Nc6 9. Bb3 Bd7 10. Qd2 Rc8 11. O-O-O Ne5
12. Kb1 Nc4 13. Bxc4 Rxc4 14. g4 b5 15. h4 (15. b3 b4 16. bxc4 bxc3 17. Qxc3
Qc7 {and I think blacks position is playable dispete the material down}) 15...
b4 16. Nd5 (16. Nce2 {am I not shure of but} Qc7 {seems pretty solid} 17. h5
Rc8 18. hxg6 fxg6 19. Rc1 e5 20. g5 Nh5 21. Nf5 gxf5 22. b3 (22. Rxh5 Be6)
22... Rc6 23. Rxh5 Be6 24. Rhh1 (24. Rch1 f4) 24... a5 25. Rhf1) 16... e6 17.
Nxf6+ Qxf6 18. Qh2 {was the move I was scared of but} (18. h5 Rfc8 {
is equal according to Rybka}) 18... Qe7 {only move} (18... Qe5 19. Bf4 Qa5 20.
Bxd6 Rfc8 21. h5) (18... e5 19. Bg5) (18... d5 19. Bg5 Qe5 20. Bf4 Qf6 21. g5
Qe7) 19. h5 Be5 {actually seems to hold!} 20. f4 Bxd4 21. Bxd4 Rfc8 22. hxg6
fxg6 23. f5 (23. Bf6 Qf7 24. f5 (24. g5 Rxc2 25. Qxh7+ Qxh7 26. Rxh7 Kxh7 27.
Rh1+ Kg8 28. Rh8+ Kf7 29. Rh7+ Ke8 30. Rh8+ Kf7) 24... Rxc2 25. Qxh7+ Qxh7 26.
Rxh7 Rc1+ 27. Rxc1 Rxc1+ 28. Kxc1 Kxh7 29. fxg6+ Kxg6 30. Be7 Bc6 31. Bxd6 Bxe4
32. Bxb4 Kg5 {and the opposte colour Bishops garantees a draw}) (23. Qd2 e5 24.
fxe5 dxe5 25. Bxe5 Bxg4 26. Qd5+ Be6 27. Rxh7 Kxh7 28. Rh1+ Kg8 29. Rh8+ Kf7
30. Rh7+ Kg8) 23... Rxc2 24. Qh3 Bc6 25. Rhe1 (25. Rde1 Rc4 26. Qd3 Bb5 27. Qd2
Rc2 28. Qe3 e5) 25... Qg5 26. Qf3 Rd2 27. Be3 (27. fxe6 Rxd1+ 28. Qxd1 Qe7 29.
Qb3 a5 30. g5 Re8 31. Bb6 Qxg5 32. e7+ d5 33. exd5 Bxd5 34. Qd3 a4 35. Ba5 b3
36. axb3 axb3 37. Bc3) 27... Rxd1+ 28. Rxd1 Qf6 29. Bd4 Qf7 *

  
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Re: Theoretically importent Dragon game
Reply #7 - 09/15/08 at 22:20:01
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Pachmann (1986) gives the line 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. O-O-O Rc8 11. Bb3 Ne5 12.h4 Nc4 13. Bxc4 Rxc4 14.g4 b5 15.h5 b4 16.Nd5 Nxd5 17.exd5 Qa5 18.Kb1 leading to a White advantage. So this is a transposition Black might want to avoid. Pachmann also suggests 16...e6 leading to equality; maybe that is also the case with White having played Kb1 iso h5 ?
  

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bragesjo
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Re: Theoretically importent Dragon game
Reply #6 - 09/15/08 at 20:08:43
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What does black actually play if after b5 if white plays h4 instead of b3? None of my books treats tht line at all. Eg b4 simply Nd5!
  
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Re: Theoretically importent Dragon game
Reply #5 - 07/05/08 at 12:01:00
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http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1200419719

I remember that I was not too impressed by the NIC article since there where to few relevant games to come to any conclusions and Fritz thought that the Ka1 plan was simply winning for white, a plan not even mentioned in the article. The conclusion of this game is to never trust compuer analyses blindly. The article called the position unclear.
  
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Re: Theoretically importent Dragon game
Reply #4 - 07/05/08 at 03:24:37
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TonyRo wrote on 07/05/08 at 02:32:28:
I forget which number it is (85 - Regius), but I am pretty confident it's the one with Anand on the cover, and I believe it's lime green. It's funny which parts of things you remember.


  
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TonyRo
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Re: Theoretically importent Dragon game
Reply #3 - 07/05/08 at 02:32:28
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I forget which number it is, but I am pretty confident it's the one with Anand on the cover, and I believe it's lime green. It's funny which parts of things you remember.
  
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