Latest Updates:
Normal Topic C05: Tarrasch - Geller/Korchnoi gambit and h5 move (Read 6216 times)
Raspje
Junior Member
**
Offline


Play the dynamic French

Posts: 55
Location: Winsum, Groningen,Holland
Joined: 01/05/03
Gender: Male
Re: Tarrasch - Geller/Korchnoi gambit and h5 pawn move
Reply #5 - 07/10/08 at 14:31:29
Post Tools
Indeed. 11.Nf3 is stronger than 11.Nb3?!, but nevertheless I still think black has a good position after 11...Nxf3+ 12.Qxf3 Bxc5. White has not very much pieces left and is a pawn down. He undoubtedly has some compensation, but howmuch? A sample line:

11...Nxf3+ 12. Qxf3 Bxc5 13. Qg3 Rg8 14. Bg5 
Be7 15. Bxe7 Qxe7 16. Rfe1 Bd7 17. Bh7 Rh8 18. Qxg7 Qf8 19. Qxf8+ Kxf8 20. Bd3 h4=/=+

I think 9.Bb5 Qb6 10.Qa4 is also a critical line. Another variation, of course not forced: 

9. Bb5 cxd4 10. cxd4 g5 11. Qa4 g4 12. Ne1 Nb6 13. Bxc6+ bxc6 14. Qc2 Ba6 15. Nd3 h4 16. f4 h3 17. g3 Nd7 18. f5 Qb6 with an extremely complicated position.



  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: Tarrasch - Geller/Korchnoi gambit and h5 pawn move
Reply #4 - 07/10/08 at 10:30:34
Post Tools
Raspje I was thinking in your line 9.dxc5 Ndxe5 10.Nxe5 Nxe5 11.Nb3?!  to play 11.Nf3 in stead with the idea 11..Nxd3 12.Qxd3 and the c-pawn wont fall as you have b4. I think white is better here.

Also 9.Bb5 directly looks good, which is a pity as I like the h5 idea.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Raspje
Junior Member
**
Offline


Play the dynamic French

Posts: 55
Location: Winsum, Groningen,Holland
Joined: 01/05/03
Gender: Male
Re: Tarrasch - Geller/Korchnoi gambit and h5 pawn move
Reply #3 - 07/08/08 at 17:05:08
Post Tools
Hey Dom, interesting idea. You might be familiar with the move ...h5 after 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.Bd3 c5 6.c3 Nc6 7.Ngf3 Be7 8.0-0 h5!? as played by Morozevich, Barsov and Cheparinov. 7...a5 8.0-0 h5!? seems to have some advantages:

- After 9.dxc5 Ndxe5 10.Nxe5 Nxe5 11.Nb3?! black can play ...a4! and win the pawn on c5.

-After 11.Bb5+ Bd7 12.Bxd7+ Nxd7 13.b4 black can play ...g6 followed by ...Bg7.

But there are also two disadvantages:

-It weakens square b5.

-Black doesn't develop the B on f8 (but maybe that is what you want, to put it on g7).

Another variation:



1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. c3 c5 6. Bd3 Nc6 7. Ngf3 a5 8. O-O h5 9. Re1 cxd4 10. cxd4 g5 11. Nb3 g4 12. Ng5 Be7 13. Nh7 a4 14. Nc5 Nxd4 15.Nxa4 b5 16. Nc3 b4 17. Nb1 Nc5 with dynamic play.



Groundbreaking stuff!

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
dom
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 908
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 01/11/03
Gender: Male
Re: Tarrasch - Geller/Korchnoi gambit and h5 pawn move
Reply #2 - 07/07/08 at 19:02:51
Post Tools
Hello SmyslovFan,...and thanks for the reply.
Yes g5 is the other pawn move, and it's part of Black strategy.
Black want to play g5-g4 to force White to move his knight on f3 square defending the center. In main variations, Black try to push g5 at once but White has played dxc5 giving the d4 square for the knight,and Black has g4 pawn to protect after g5-g4. 
Of course, all the ideas for Black and White need "real" games or in-depth analysis. For example, I read from Eingorn's book that White want to play the f4 move but I have not found games analysis. 
The move f6 is key move for many lines in such pawn structures..and the question is: can Black afford such a move ? Without analysis, I guess the answer is NO if White has active development with light square bishop on d3 (the diag. e8-h5 is week) and no piece on e file will improve Re1 move. Hence, Black doesn't attack White pawns in center but pieces defending it.   
I can resist: I have already browsed Watson's book (Dangerous book The French) but not read from beginning to end..and I mention that the  positon of Diag 19 is about same topic except that h5 is only played after h3 for White
  

“Learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.”  - Groucho Marx
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
YaBB Moderator
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Tarrasch - Geller/Korchnoi gambit and h5 pawn move
Reply #1 - 07/05/08 at 18:38:13
Post Tools
I haven't looked at this position in a few years, but my first reactions are:

a) this is a very aggresive system for Black to undertake. I don't see what White has done wrong for this to work.

b) by playing h5, you have pretty much stated to your opponent that you won't even try for the classic pawn break on f6 (you would have too many light-squared weaknesses on the k-side).

c) White can effectively organize play in the center by Re1, Nd2-f1 and perhaps Ng5-h3 to prepare f4.  I'm not sure about the last part.

Still, Black doesn't seem to be threatening a huge attack on the k-side even with h5, and if there is no K-side attack, then Black has wasted a move he could have used to shore up the center.   

What was your idea behind 8...h5?  Was it really to continue with 9...g5 and try to attack White's king?

If so, I just don't see it working because you have too few options for developing your pieces compared to similar pawn storms in the King's Indian and other lines.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
dom
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 908
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 01/11/03
Gender: Male
C05: Tarrasch - Geller/Korchnoi gambit and h5 move
07/05/08 at 15:33:05
Post Tools
I finished reading Sveshnikov's books about the Advance and now I began reading  "Chess Explained - The French" Eingorn-Bogdanov Gambit Ed.

For general comment I would say book is an "overview" book, because it covers many main lines in few pages. Chess explained style is more dedicated to good comments about "reference games" than in-depth analysis.

In this thread I want just put in light, I found good analysis of Smirin-Cheparinov, Calvia Olympiad 2004, a Tarrasch variation game (what I call Geller/Korchnoi gambit pawn structure, but can be classify in Universal System too)

The comment that the h5 pawn move creates less weakness than g5, hence dxc5 is less stronger, makes me curious about using the h5 pawn move in another line.

I would like to know what you think about this (new) move:

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.Ngf3 c5 6.c3 Nc6 (Korchnoi-Udovcic,Leningrad 1967 (Korchnoi,"My best games")) 7.Bd3 a5! (many purposes move: one common is to prepare vs a later Nb3 after the exchange cxd4-cxd4) 8.oo (8.a4 Pavasovic- A Jurkovic, 1999 ; 8.a3 Be7) which is an position where many moves have been played and maybe Fedorchuk's games as White are interesting for 8...a4 (see Chesspublishing updates). 

Here I propose the 8..h5!? pawn move
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *

« Last Edit: 07/27/11 at 19:12:27 by dom »  

“Learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.”  - Groucho Marx
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo