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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C23-C28 C27: Bishop's opening move order (Read 6121 times)
Strategy_Rules
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Re: Bishop's opening move order
Reply #17 - 07/31/08 at 15:17:07
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4.a3 Bxc3 5.dxc3 0-0 6.Bg5 h6 7.h4 followed by Qf3 and Ng1-e2-g3


7.h4 d6 followed be Be6 is the natural response. After Be6 white will play Bc4-d3 and we would have a real transposition to the Ruy Lopez Exchange. So 6.Bg5 h6 7.h4 cannot be recommended for white.
  
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Re: Bishop's opening move order
Reply #16 - 07/30/08 at 09:41:58
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4.a3 Bxc3 5.dxc3 0-0 6.Bg5 h6 7.h4 followed by Qf3 and Ng1-e2-g3


Intersting, I will check that.

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Still I wonder how do you meet 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.d3 Bc5 then? White's best chance is 5.f4, which is sometimes highly tactical.


I played 5.Bg5 in some OTB games, following the ideas of my "hero" GM Ian Rogers from Australia.
  
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Re: Bishop's opening move order
Reply #15 - 07/28/08 at 16:41:12
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Strategy_Rules wrote on 07/28/08 at 12:45:00:
Normally I played 2.Bc4 in order to avoid complications. I like pure positional chess Smiley However, after 2...Nf6 3.d3 I disliked both 3...c6,4...d5 and the setup which is typical for the Philidor defence.
So I played 3.Nc3 and after 3...Bb4 I experimented with 4.a3 Bxc3 5.dxc3, playing a Ruy Lopez exchange variation (colors reversed) with the extra move Bc4. So black cannot play an early d5. I intended to remove my bishop later followed by c3-c4,Ng1-e2-c3.
Any comments about my idea ?


Well, c5 is not a usual square for the King's Bishop in the Ruy Lopez. In the worst case White can use that extra tempo to play the bishop to a better square than c4, so 4.a3 can't be bad. The trick of course is to find lines in which that bishop on c4 may not be optimally played, but still usefully. So eg I wonder about 4.a3 Bxc3 5.dxc3 0-0 6.Bg5 h6 7.h4 followed by Qf3 and Ng1-e2-g3. But that is probably not the positional kind of chess you are looking for.
Still I wonder how do you meet 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.d3 Bc5 then? White's best chance is 5.f4, which is sometimes highly tactical.
  

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Re: Bishop's opening move order
Reply #14 - 07/28/08 at 12:45:00
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Normally I played 2.Bc4 in order to avoid complications. I like pure positional chess Smiley However, after 2...Nf6 3.d3 I disliked both 3...c6,4...d5 and the setup which is typical for the Philidor defence.
So I played 3.Nc3 and after 3...Bb4 I experimented with 4.a3 Bxc3 5.dxc3, playing a Ruy Lopez exchange variation (colors reversed) with the extra move Bc4. So black cannot play an early d5. I intended to remove my bishop later followed by c3-c4,Ng1-e2-c3.
Any comments about my idea ?
  
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Re: Bishop's opening move order
Reply #13 - 07/25/08 at 06:26:45
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Yes drkodos, I believe myself that only 5..Bc5 gives equality (but can transpose later with 5..Bd7 if Black play 10..Bb6, or can try to stay independant with 10..Qe7) for Black, but even here I think White can hope to have a slight advantage after 10. Nd2 or even 10.0-0. But ok I am not an expert of this opening, I only played this position as Black.
  
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Re: Bishop's opening move order
Reply #12 - 07/25/08 at 01:19:58
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ArKheiN wrote on 07/24/08 at 06:21:45:
Indeed, the one who play 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d4!? knows he will often face the transposition into the 2 Knights. At least he avoided the Petroff! Maybe it's off-topic but in the 2 Knight I think after 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.e5 d5 6.Fb5 can give a complicated game.


It often does give a complicated game, but Black is just fine, imho.  If you play the Two Knights, this is one of the main things for which you prepare.  Unless of course you like 5...Ne4, which is another story.
  

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Re: Bishop's opening move order
Reply #11 - 07/24/08 at 23:34:12
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ArKheiN wrote on 07/24/08 at 06:21:45:
Indeed, the one who play 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d4!? knows he will often face the transposition into the 2 Knights. At least he avoided the Petroff! Maybe it's off-topic but in the 2 Knight I think after 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.e5 d5 6.Fb5 can give a complicated game.



True.  6. ...Bc5 is a nice choice for Black when I think the only line promising white much these days is still the Nd2 variation, but both players are well advised to have several lines memorized for otb outings.

I just got hung out as Black in this line so I might be a bit overly sensitive about it right now.   Grin

I still think Black is equal (or better) in these lines (despite a recent failure--due to middlegame inexactitude and not the opening).
  

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Re: Bishop's opening move order
Reply #10 - 07/24/08 at 09:58:43
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I would prefer 3.d3 (otherwise I might as well start 2.Nc3) and after ...c6 and ...d5 try to prove black's centre is vulnerable . There was a nice article on this line by Glenn Flear in SOS 6


What did he recommend after 3.d3 c6 4.Nf3 (I assume) d5 5.Bb3 Bd6 ?
I intend to play dxe4 in the next move with black.

After 3...Nc6 4.Nc3 Bb4 I would play 5.Bg5, avoiding d7-d5.
After 4...Na5 5.Bb3 Bb4 again 6.Bg5. So always Bg5 after Bb4 Smiley
  
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Re: Bishop's opening move order
Reply #9 - 07/24/08 at 06:21:45
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Indeed, the one who play 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d4!? knows he will often face the transposition into the 2 Knights. At least he avoided the Petroff! Maybe it's off-topic but in the 2 Knight I think after 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.e5 d5 6.Fb5 can give a complicated game.
  
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Re: Bishop's opening move order
Reply #8 - 07/23/08 at 23:58:29
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CheckMate wrote on 07/23/08 at 18:12:22:
After 1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 Nf6 3. d3 Nc6 4. Nc3 Na5:
5. Nge2 Nxc4 6. dc Bc5 7. 0-0 d6  8. Qd3 or Emm's 5. Qf3!? are more testing than the insipid 5. Bb3 which loses an important tempo.


Black can postpone the exchange with 5...c6 - as you already have pointed out x.Bb3 is a loss of tempo. I agree that 4...Na5 is the most annoying move. 4...Bb4 is probably equal as well, but White has more chances to complicate the game.

CheckMate wrote on 07/23/08 at 18:12:22:
In the Frankenstein-Dracula (1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 Nf6 3. Nc3 Nxe4 4. Qh5! Nd6 5. Bb3) Black may play very ambitiously with 5 ... Nc6!?  6. Nb5! or very safe with 5 ... Be7. The former line is unclear whlile the latter is equal.

The latter always has been the reason for me not to play 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.Nc3, which after Nc6 4.d3 indeed does allow Na5 again. White faces the choice of that 3...Nxe4 line and Paulsen's 3.d3 c6. I prefer the latter for White. Instead of 4.Nf3 White might consider 4.Nc3 first, intending to answer 4...c6 with 5.f4. The only way to avoid 4...Na5 and 4...Bb4 is 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Nc6 4.Nf3 transposing to the Modern 2Knights, when Bc5 5.c3 is the Giuoco Pianissimo. This has been used by GM Nunn in the 80's ao to avoid the Russian Defence.
The problem of 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d4 (does not derserve an exclam at all) is 3...exd4 4.Nf3 Nc6. This suits those who play the 2Knights very well of course.


  

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Re: Bishop's opening move order
Reply #7 - 07/23/08 at 20:24:03
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Markovich wrote on 07/23/08 at 18:51:54:
I am always pleasantly surprised how many of my fellow amateurs eschew the Spanish.  I consider everything else to be decidedly suboptimal from White's viewpoint.




Seconded.
  

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Re: Bishop's opening move order
Reply #6 - 07/23/08 at 20:04:46
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MagicTrick wrote on 07/23/08 at 19:11:16:
Markovich wrote on 07/23/08 at 18:51:54:
Strategy_Rules wrote on 07/23/08 at 12:31:08:
I am thinking about including the line 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nc6 3.d3 Nf6 4.Nc3 Na5 5.Bb3 in my repertoire for white as a suprise weapon. Nc6,Nf6,Sa5 is something that is frequently played with black.


Personally as Black in this sequence, I would play 4...Bb4, which is the main line.  So I don't understand how your move order avoids ...Bb4. 

Offtopic: as someone who has played 1...e5 all my life, I am always pleasantly surprised how many of my fellow amateurs eschew the Spanish.  I consider everything else to be decidedly suboptimal from White's viewpoint.


I suppose it's because they're afraid of the theory, while in fact the opponents don't know much theory either. And in Spanish, it's sufficient (in most lines) to have a general understanding, which some may lack though


But there is deep theory in almost everything 1...e5.  Personally I try to stay up on all my 1...e5 theory, not just the Spanish, for the reason that one so often encounters these deviations.
  

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Re: Bishop's opening move order
Reply #5 - 07/23/08 at 19:11:16
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Markovich wrote on 07/23/08 at 18:51:54:
Strategy_Rules wrote on 07/23/08 at 12:31:08:
I am thinking about including the line 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nc6 3.d3 Nf6 4.Nc3 Na5 5.Bb3 in my repertoire for white as a suprise weapon. Nc6,Nf6,Sa5 is something that is frequently played with black.


Personally as Black in this sequence, I would play 4...Bb4, which is the main line.  So I don't understand how your move order avoids ...Bb4.  

Offtopic: as someone who has played 1...e5 all my life, I am always pleasantly surprised how many of my fellow amateurs eschew the Spanish.  I consider everything else to be decidedly suboptimal from White's viewpoint.


I suppose it's because they're afraid of the theory, while in fact the opponents don't know much theory either. And in Spanish, it's sufficient (in most lines) to have a general understanding, which some may lack though
  
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Re: Bishop's opening move order
Reply #4 - 07/23/08 at 18:51:54
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Strategy_Rules wrote on 07/23/08 at 12:31:08:
I am thinking about including the line 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nc6 3.d3 Nf6 4.Nc3 Na5 5.Bb3 in my repertoire for white as a suprise weapon. Nc6,Nf6,Sa5 is something that is frequently played with black.


Personally as Black in this sequence, I would play 4...Bb4, which is the main line.  So I don't understand how your move order avoids ...Bb4. 

Offtopic: as someone who has played 1...e5 all my life, I am always pleasantly surprised how many of my fellow amateurs eschew the Spanish.  I consider everything else to be decidedly suboptimal from White's viewpoint.

  

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Re: Bishop's opening move order
Reply #3 - 07/23/08 at 18:12:22
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After 1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 Nf6 3. d3 Nc6 4. Nc3 Na5:
5. Nge2 Nxc4 6. dc Bc5 7. 0-0 d6  8. Qd3 or Emm's 5. Qf3!? are more testing than the insipid 5. Bb3 which loses an important tempo.

In the Paulsen system 3 ... c6 4. Nf3 Black isn't forced to play ... d5, he may also play ... d6, ... Be7 and ... Qc7 with a Hanham/Philidor like setup where White have played d3 rather than d4.

In the Frankenstein-Dracula (1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 Nf6 3. Nc3 Nxe4 4. Qh5! Nd6 5. Bb3) Black may play very ambitiously with 5 ... Nc6!?  6. Nb5! or very safe with 5 ... Be7. The former line is unclear whlile the latter is equal.

  
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