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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C30-C39: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary (Read 88213 times)
MNb
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Re: C30-C39: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #50 - 08/22/11 at 14:39:51
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PatzerNoster wrote on 08/22/11 at 14:19:05:
So you mean that the best white can do is transpose to the Rosentreter gambit, a gambit where he seems to have a draw at most?!
Or is the move Bg7 detrimental for black?

Yes, no. Why should a perfectly logical move like Bg7 harm Black?

Nocci,R (2311) - Ryan,P (2291) [C37]
WSTT/1/06/Semifinal 1 - King's Gambit,  ICCF, 25.05.2007
½-½



The Rosentreter has been discussed here on this forum a few years ago. The general verdict was that it's a forced draw indeed. Now your question, if I understand you correctly, if White can avoid a forced draw after 4.Nc3 Bg7 5.d4 g4. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I see no reason why Black should be worse. All of Black's moves look perfectly sound to me.
  
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PatzerNoster
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Re: C30-C39: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #49 - 08/22/11 at 14:19:05
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So you mean that the best white can do is transpose to the Rosentreter gambit, a gambit where he seems to have a draw at most?!
Or is the move Bg7 detrimental for black?
As I said, I can't find material about Bg7 in that position, except the one Furhoff game, which doesn't seem to have great theoretical importance.
@MNb: nice game, but unfortunately Qe7 by black seems weak (as you state indirectly).

What do the other experts Dragonslayer, TalJechin think about this?
  
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MNb
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Re: C30-C39: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #48 - 08/21/11 at 19:38:05
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Furhoff-Kallgren, Stockholm Open 1994, saw this line. Furhoff is the pioneeer of White's opening strategy. There is also a thematic corr. game Nocci-Ryan, WSTT 2007. In both games Black played 7...Nc6, which just transposes. So does 7...d6.
To make things even a bit more confusing, play is also similar to the Pierce Gambit 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 exf4 4.Nf3 g5 5.d4 g4 6.Bc4 gxf3 7.0-0 d6 8.Qxf3.

A theoretically quite irrelevant game:

MNb - Koller,G [C37]
em EM/H/135, 2004



  
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Re: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #47 - 08/21/11 at 14:36:26
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One thing that is unclear to me in the whole new concept of the King's Gambit (Quaade gambit in connection with the g3-ideas) is the following:

1.e4 e5 2.f4 ef4: 3.Nf3 g5 4.Nc3 Bg7 (black's most popular move in that position).

Now most people play 5.d4, but what should white do after 5. ... g4 (this move is almost never played,why?)?
After 6.Bf4: gf3: 7.Qf3: the position resembles a Rosentreter, but is this version for white acceptable? I have not been able to find anything about a Rosentreter with such an early Bg7.

After 5.g3 (never played before according to my knowledge) white has to reckon with 5. ... g4 6.Nh4 d5!? which is Houdini's preference. This move looks strange, but in the whole "New King's Gambit" white's compensation is based on good control of the centre, which black can challenge with this counter-pawn-sacrifice. Meanwhile the white king feels uncomfortable in the centre with the f3-pawn right in front of him.
  
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Re: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #46 - 11/01/08 at 02:31:43
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Markovich wrote on 10/31/08 at 17:43:02:
MNb wrote on 10/30/08 at 21:19:34:
ANDREW BRETT wrote on 10/30/08 at 17:13:53:
I vaguely recall Emms recommending 3... h6 in his book on the open games - anyone able to explain why this line isn't being used.

Fashion? Anyhow, the line 4.d4 g5 5.Nc3 and g2-g3 at the right moment offers decent compensation. Of course this does not mean that Black is worse.


Fashion in the King's Gambit is a little like fashion in Duluth, Minnesota.


I'm gunna take a wild guess at the meaning of this analogy and go with FLEETING .

Tops Smiley
  
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Re: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #45 - 10/31/08 at 17:43:02
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MNb wrote on 10/30/08 at 21:19:34:
ANDREW BRETT wrote on 10/30/08 at 17:13:53:
I vaguely recall Emms recommending 3... h6 in his book on the open games - anyone able to explain why this line isn't being used.

Fashion? Anyhow, the line 4.d4 g5 5.Nc3 and g2-g3 at the right moment offers decent compensation. Of course this does not mean that Black is worse.


Fashion in the King's Gambit is a little like fashion in Duluth, Minnesota.
  
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MNb
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Re: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #44 - 10/30/08 at 21:19:34
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ANDREW BRETT wrote on 10/30/08 at 17:13:53:
I vaguely recall Emms recommending 3... h6 in his book on the open games - anyone able to explain why this line isn't being used.

Fashion? Anyhow, the line 4.d4 g5 5.Nc3 and g2-g3 at the right moment offers decent compensation. Of course this does not mean that Black is worse.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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ANDREW BRETT
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Re: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #43 - 10/30/08 at 17:13:53
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I vaguely recall Emms recommending 3... h6 in his book on the open games - anyone able to explain why this line isn't being used.
  
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Dragonslayer
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Re: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #42 - 10/29/08 at 23:05:47
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FightingDragon wrote on 10/14/08 at 10:00:40:
@MNb: Thanks, now I see what you mean. By the way, why do you think that 1.e4 e5 2.f4 ef4: 3.Nf3 d6 4.d4 g5 5.h4 g4 6.Ng1 is =+?
I have seen that statement by you several times on the forum, but haven't found concrete variations.
At least Gallagher in his article series for the german magazine "Schach" (I think it was around 2000) thought white was OK.

@Dragonslayer: Congratulations!
1.e4 e5 2.f4 ef4: 3.Nf3 g5 4.Nc3 Nc6 5.g3 Nd4!? is very creative.
I think it's hard for white to prove full compensation, e.g. 6.Bc4 (d3 Bd6!?) f3 7.d3 d6 8.Be3 Bg7 9.Qd2 Ne7 10.0-0-0 could be playable, but I'm not sure if white has full compensation.

Regarding the Kieseritsky, Stefan Buecker writes that after 1.e4 e5 2.f4 ef4: 3.Nf3 g5 4.h4 g4 5.Ne5 Nf6 6.Bc4 d5 7.ed5: Bd6 8.d4 0-0 9.Nc3 Nh5 you prefer 10.Ne4. But I can't see what to play after 10. ... f5!, e.g. 11.Ng5 Nd7! 12.Ne6 Qf6 13.Nf8: Kf8: 14.c3 Ng3! 15.Rg1 Ne5: 16.de5: Be5: and it is difficult to see which white piece takes part at the game at all.
I think the main issue in the position is the black pawn on f4. It severely hampers the white position and prevents the Bc1 (and consequently Ra1) coming into play. One move before black kept the pawn with Nh5.

So for me the most logical move is 10.Ne2 trying to eliminate that pawn, when Buecker's analysis at Chesscafe.com seems to indicate a good game for white.  Smiley  


Actually 10.Ne4 f5 11.Ng5 Nd7! is very good for Black (I discussed this with Bücker and tried everything: 11.Nxd6 cxd6 12.Nd3 seems best).
10.Ne2 has its problems too. Instead of Riemann's 10..Re8 Black has at least two better choices.

So it seems 9.Nc3 is under a cloud. However Bücker did a good job of putting 9.0-0 back on the playing field.
  
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MNb
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Re: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #41 - 10/20/08 at 01:53:02
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It is a fair comparison, because in the Fischer line 3...d6 4.d4 g5 5.h4 g4 6.Ng1 White will have to give back the tempo to develop that knight on g1. You're not going to leave it there the rest of the game, are you? In fact after 3...d6 4.d4 g5 5.h4 g4 6.Ng1 Nf6 the illegal move 7.Ng1-d3 immediately transposes.
Now you may argue that White for the time being has better moves than x.Nge2, but at the other hand Black may look for other options but 6...Nf6.
  
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Re: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #40 - 10/19/08 at 22:51:13
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I don't think that' a fair comparison. In the main variation of the Kieseritsky black is an important tempo up (Nf6).
  
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MNb
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Re: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #39 - 10/15/08 at 00:44:30
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FightingDragon wrote on 10/14/08 at 21:15:15:
I think I know which line you mean:

1.e4 e5 2.f4 ef4: 3.Nf3 d6 4.d4 g5 5.h4 g4 6.Ng1 f5 and we have Hector-Leko, 1995.


Yes, that's the one. White has done quite badly, even after 7.Nc3. There have been two wins by Fedorov, but Black's play has been improved as well.
I haven't looked at 6...f3 but that might be a problem as well. Finally I find it a bit peculiar that 3...g5 4.h4 g4 5.Ne5 Nf6 6.d4 d6 7.Nd3 is condemned these days and 3...d6 4.d4 g5 5.h4 g4 6.Ng1 is thought to give White enough compensation. Is the knight on g1 really that much better than on d3?
  
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Re: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #38 - 10/14/08 at 21:15:15
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I think I know which line you mean:

1.e4 e5 2.f4 ef4: 3.Nf3 d6 4.d4 g5 5.h4 g4 6.Ng1 f5 7.Nc3 fe4: 8.Bf4: Nf6 9.Qd2?! d5! and we have Hector-Leko, 1995.

After that, it was discovered that white is fine after 9.d5!

But I always asked myself what happens after 8. ... d5!
After 9.Be5 Nf6 both 10.Bf6: Qf6: 11.Nd5: Qd6 -/+ and 10.Nd5: Qd5: 11.Bf6: Bb4+! 12.c3 0-0 13.Bg5 Bd6 =+ are better for black.

Alas I don't really see a better move than 9.Qd2, but maybe white is OK nevertheless.

Another interesting possibility is 7.Bf4: fe4: 8.c4 preventing d5, although it looks a little loosening.
Or 8.Qd2!? d5 (Nf6 9.h5 waiting for ... d5 10.c4!) 9.c4! which also looks interesting.
  
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MNb
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Re: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #37 - 10/14/08 at 20:41:56
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Bibs wrote on 10/14/08 at 10:59:47:

Oh, you'd be surprised Mnb:

check out:
e4 e5
Nf3 f5
ef e4
Ng1(!)

is a worthy line. Not the place to go into the intricacies of this line , but moral of the tale is: if its in the way, put it back.


No, I am not surprised, I knew this line already. A black pluspawn on f4 or a white one on f5 might make a difference, don't you think? And even then 3.exf5/4.Ng1 might not be White's best against the Latvian, so it looks like a bad analogy to me.
Anyhow, if I play the KG I prefer 3...d6 4.d4 (4.Nc3) g5 5.Nc3 which feels more natural to me and is unclear at least.
  
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Re: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #36 - 10/14/08 at 16:10:04
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Reminds me of what Robert Byrne said long ago (apropos of why he stopped playing the KG):  "Black has one defense after another, all of them good."
  
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