ChessPub Forum - Zurich variation any good for black?

Michael Ayton God Member Offline ‘You’re never alone with a doppelgänger.’ Posts: 1947 Location: durham Joined: 04/19/03 Gender:	Re: Zurich variation any good for black? Reply #21 - 06/01/09 at 18:45:20	Post Tools	Print Post
	Thanks for this and apols for being so late in saying so! -- I'd forgotten to keep up with this thread ...


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HoemberChess God Member Offline Posts: 512 Location: Lake d4 on Planet Chess Joined: 10/08/07 Gender:	Re: Zurich variation any good for black? Reply #20 - 05/19/09 at 20:40:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	I think Chess Openings for Black, Explained gives this very variation.

	as W 1d4) Torre/Barry/Pirc/Philidor/ early _d5:early c4(QGD/Slav/QGD/etc) B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]\| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]\| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6\| 1Nf3:c5
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Michael Ayton God Member Offline ‘You’re never alone with a doppelgänger.’ Posts: 1947 Location: durham Joined: 04/19/03 Gender:	Re: Zurich variation any good for black? Reply #19 - 04/27/09 at 09:27:39	Post Tools	Print Post
	Thanks for this -- will take a look. Meanwhile anyone got any thoughts on my post #6?


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MartinC God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 2080 Joined: 07/24/06	Re: Zurich variation any good for black? Reply #18 - 04/27/09 at 09:15:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	As I remember things Cox gave an efficient looking line vs 5.. d5 in starting out 1 d4. It certainly seemed annoying enough to put me off it. iirc it started with 6 Bg5 but I could quite easily be wrong.


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GMTonyKosten YaBB Administrator Offline Mr Dynamic? Posts: 3161 Location: Clermont-Ferrand Joined: 12/19/02 Gender:	Re: Zurich variation any good for black? Reply #17 - 04/26/09 at 21:01:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	Stigma wrote on 04/26/09 at 20:40:11: Well, someone obviously didn't get my little joke Hint: look who I was recommending the book to... Well, I got the joke anyway. Although I wrote the book last century ... I can still vaguely remember it!!


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Stigma God Member Offline There is a crack in everything. Posts: 3272 Joined: 11/07/06 Gender:	Re: Zurich variation any good for black? Reply #16 - 04/26/09 at 20:40:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	TN wrote on 04/26/09 at 01:24:28: 'Mastering the Nimzo-Indian' was authored by GM Tony Kosten. You can find a review of this book by Jeremy Silman at the following link: http://www.jeremysilman.com/book_reviews_js/js_mastering_nimzo_indian.html Well, someone obviously didn't get my little joke Hint: look who I was recommending the book to...

	Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Michael Ayton God Member Offline ‘You’re never alone with a doppelgänger.’ Posts: 1947 Location: durham Joined: 04/19/03 Gender:	Re: Zurich variation any good for black? Reply #15 - 04/26/09 at 14:46:09	Post Tools	Print Post
	[quote]I suppose it is playable, but White should always have a small advantage as the c6-knight impedes the c7-pawn and Black will likely have to concede the bishop pair.[/quote] That's an interesting take on the situation. Tony. I guess one question that might stem from it is, if the standard assessments of the lines I quoted tend to end in an equals-sign, should we be thinking (a) they're not perhaps equal at all, or (b) White's best line hasn't been unearthed yet?


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TN God Member Offline Posts: 3420 Joined: 11/07/08 Gender:	Re: Zurich variation any good for black? Reply #14 - 04/26/09 at 01:24:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	'Mastering the Nimzo-Indian' was authored by GM Tony Kosten. You can find a review of this book by Jeremy Silman at the following link: http://www.jeremysilman.com/book_reviews_js/js_mastering_nimzo_indian.html

	All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
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Stigma God Member Offline There is a crack in everything. Posts: 3272 Joined: 11/07/06 Gender:	Re: Zurich variation any good for black? Reply #13 - 04/26/09 at 00:48:03	Post Tools	Print Post
	GMTonyKosten wrote on 04/25/09 at 22:51:52: The advantage of playing ...d6 is that the knight helps Black play the positionally desirable ...e5. I've only played this a couple of times against 4 Qc2, but didn't score very well, and didn't much like the positions I got! There were some tips on how to play the Zürich structure in the instructive book "Mastering the Nimzo-Indian"! If only I could remember who wrote that one...

	Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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GMTonyKosten YaBB Administrator Offline Mr Dynamic? Posts: 3161 Location: Clermont-Ferrand Joined: 12/19/02 Gender:	Re: Zurich variation any good for black? Reply #12 - 04/25/09 at 22:51:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	[quote author=nmga link=1217940875/0#11 date=1240662250]Is there anything wrong with [4 Qc2 Nc6 5 Nf3] [b]5 ...d5!?[/b], except that it seems out of fashion? [/quote] I suppose it is playable, but White should always have a small advantage as the c6-knight impedes the c7-pawn and Black will likely have to concede the bishop pair. The advantage of playing ...d6 is that the knight helps Black play the positionally desirable ...e5. I've only played this a couple of times against 4 Qc2, but didn't score very well, and didn't much like the positions I got! :(


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Michael Ayton God Member Offline ‘You’re never alone with a doppelgänger.’ Posts: 1947 Location: durham Joined: 04/19/03 Gender:	Re: Zurich variation any good for black? Reply #11 - 04/25/09 at 12:24:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	Is there anything wrong with [4 Qc2 Nc6 5 Nf3] [b]5 ...d5!?[/b], except that it seems out of fashion? After 6 a3 Bc3 7 Qc3 Ne4 8 Qc2, the traditional 8 ...e5 9 de Bf5 and the newer 8 ...Qf6!? both seem to be OK, and Kosten (1994, p. 92) also mentions 8 ...a5!? 9 e3 Bd7 10 Bd3 Nd6. Orlov's Black Knights' Tango Book (p. 90) says White should play 8 Qb3, whereon he claims 8 ...Na5 9 Qa4 is slightly better for White. But he also mentions (without analysis) 8 ...0-0, idea ...Na5. 6 Bg5 is another approach. Here [i]NCO[/i] (p. 477, n. 8) gives 6 ...dc!? 7 e3 Qd5 8 Bf6 gf as unclear. Are any of these lines unsatisfactory for Black? With 5 ...d6 under a cloud it's natural that attention should turn to 5 ...d5. Can White prove anything real against it?


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drkodos God Member Offline I see....stars. Posts: 778 Location: Jupiter, and beyond Joined: 03/29/07	Re: Zurich variation any good for black? Reply #10 - 02/23/09 at 13:34:07	Post Tools	Print Post
	I also have a game in this line in which I play Black pieces: Also from ICCF at their regular time controls. 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 e6 4.Nc3 Bb4 5.Qc2 d6 6.Bg5 h6 7.Bd2 O-O 8.a3 Bxc3 9.Bxc3 Qe7 10.e4 e5 11.d5 Nd4 12.Nxd4 exd4 13.Bxd4 Nxe4 14.O-O-O c5 15.Be3 Nf6 16.Bd3 Ng4 17.Rde1 Ne5 18.h4 Bd7 19.Bf4 Rae8 20.Bxe5 dxe5 21.f3 Qf6 22.Bh7+ Kh8 23.Be4 b5 24.g4 bxc4 25.g5 Qf4+ 26.Kb1 f5 27.gxf6 gxf6 28.Bg6 Re7 29.Qe4 Qxe4+ 30.Rxe4 Bb5 31.f4 c3 32.Kc2 cxb2 33.h5 Rd8 34.Kxb2 Rxd5 35.fxe5 Rdxe5 36.Rxe5 Rxe5 37.Rd1 f5 38.Rd8+ Kg7 39.Ra8 a6 40.Ra7+ Kf6 41.Rf7+ Kg5 42.Rg7 f4 43.Be4+ Kh4 44.Bf3 Rg5 45.Rg6 Rg3 46.Bd1 f3 47.Rf6 Rg2+ 48.Kb3 f2 0-1 My opponent plays 15.Be3 instead of dxc6 (ep) and probably does not play the rook ending so well as I believe it was drawn with best play by player of white pieces. I would think that the game after move 25 deteriorates rapidly, may not have real value to anyone but me as a learning experience, and again do not mind being taken to task for the poor play on my part. My opponent is not here to defend themselves, but I believe their play was not as challenging as it could have been. After the game in our brief "post mortem" opponent stated did not use engine. I did not either. So, I have draw as white and win as black which no doubt gives me bias to black side in this line.

	I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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drkodos

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Re: Zurich variation any good for black?
Reply #9 - 02/23/09 at 13:22:49

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Klick wrote on 02/23/09 at 00:31:27:

To reiterate we have the moves : 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. Qc2 Nc6 5. Nf3 d6 6. Bg5 h6 7. Bd2 O-O 8. a3 Bxc3 9. Bxc3 Qe7 10. e4 e5 11. d5 Nd4 12. Nxd4 exd4 13. Bxd4 Nxe4 14. O-O-O c5 15. dxc6 bxc6 leading to the following position:

I`ve searched in databases failing to find any games. I don`t have vigoritos book so I don`t know what he says here, but it seems to me that white got something to work with here. I`d suggest the sensible moves 16. Bd3 Nc5 17. Rhe1 to start with when white has active pieces, are ahead in development and can work on building an attack against the enemy king and or the weak pawns on d6/c6.

Do you have any games we could look at drkodos?

Yes. Here is a semi-recent game (6 months ago) in this line I played on ICCF at their regular time controls (10 moves 50 days)

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Qc2 Nc6 5.Nf3 d6 6.Bg5 h6 7.Bd2 O-O 8.a3 Bxc3 9.Bxc3 Qe7 10.e4 e5 11.d5 Nd4 12.Nxd4 exd4 13.Bxd4 Nxe4 14.O-O-O c5 15.dxc6 bxc6 16.Bd3 Nc5 17.Bh7+ Kh8 18.Rhe1 Qg5+ 19.Be3 Qf6 20.Kb1 Rb8 21.f3 Rb7 22.h3 Bd7 23.Bd4 Qg5 24.g4 Be6 25.h4 Qf4 26.Be4 Nxe4 27.Qxe4 Qxe4+ 1/2-1/2

At move 17 I know that Bh7 is not as good as the move you suggested, but that is what I played

.

I was not using engine for this game. I am happy if people will pick it apart. I am not embarrassed by my mistakes and enjoy learning from them, so feel free to be honest (brutal) in any analysis.

Also, in the position shown, I believe Vigorito makes no comments as it does not appear in his book. I do not hold him at any fault for this! I like his book and still use it. I do not expect him to have every possibility covered. I only opine that the position is not as "winning" for white as people claim.

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.

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Klick

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Re: Zurich variation any good for black?
Reply #8 - 02/23/09 at 00:31:27

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To reiterate we have the moves : 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. Qc2 Nc6 5. Nf3 d6 6. Bg5 h6 7. Bd2 O-O 8. a3 Bxc3 9. Bxc3 Qe7 10. e4 e5 11. d5 Nd4 12. Nxd4 exd4 13. Bxd4 Nxe4 14. O-O-O c5 15. dxc6 bxc6 leading to the following position:

I`ve searched in databases failing to find any games. I don`t have vigoritos book so I don`t know what he says here, but it seems to me that white got something to work with here. I`d suggest the sensible moves 16. Bd3 Nc5 17. Rhe1 to start with when white has active pieces, are ahead in development and can work on building an attack against the enemy king and or the weak pawns on d6/c6.

Do you have any games we could look at drkodos?

There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN

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drkodos

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Re: Zurich variation any good for black?
Reply #7 - 02/22/09 at 17:35:31

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CheckMate wrote on 08/12/08 at 15:27:19:

Okay Vigorito thinks White is better in this middlegame because of the two bishops but he doesn't consider your 14 ... c5 move. This is the situation:

I don't know what you have in mind here but I couldn't resist analysing a bit. After 15. dxc6 (e.p.) Bf5!? 16. Bd3 Qg5+ 17. Be3 Qxg2 18. Rhg1 Qf3 19. Bxh6 things looks messy for Black. How does your own analysis run, mr drkodos?

Apologies for not keeping up.

I think 15. ...Bf5 is not best move for Black. 15. ...bxc6 and Black will use the open b file to generate serious counterplay against the White king.

I am guessing a computer would give the position after bxc6 as slight pull for white maybe .4 to .5 based on space and potential Bishop activity. But, I have found the resulting position with the open b file to give me problems when I play White in this line.

I am sure you folks are correct, and also I am not good enough player to be able to play this position properly.

Still, I believe this line is not as good for White as its reputation holds and I continue to struggle against best play from black despite following the recommendations of stronger players.

~peace

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.

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