ChessPub Forum - C04: A little difficulty in the Guimard variation

Sleepy kitten YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 27 Joined: 07/28/08	Re: A little difficulty in the Guimard variation Reply #9 - 09/16/08 at 01:54:27	Post Tools	Print Post
	Finally, the e5-pawn prove weak in the endgame 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 Nc6 4. Ngf3 Nf6 5. e5 Nd7 6. Nb3 a5 7. a4 Be7 8. Bb5 Na7 9. Bd3 b6 10. o-o c5 11. c4 Bb7 12. Bf4 o-o 13. Rc1 dxc4 14. Bxc4 Bc6 15. Nbd2 Rc8 16. b3 b5 17. axb5 Nxb5 18. dxc5 Nxc5 19. Be3 Na3 20. Be2 Nd3 21. Rc3 Nb4 22. Nd4 Bb7 23. Rxc8 Qxc8 24. N2f3 Nd5 25. Bg5 Nc3 26. Qd2 Nxe2 27. Qxe2 Bxg5 28. Nxg5 h6 29. Qb2 hxg5 30. Qxa3 Rd8 31. Nf3 g4 32. Rc1 Qd7 33. Ne1 Qd2 34. Qa1 Rd5 35. Rc2 Qd1 36. Rc1 Qe2 37. Rc2 Qxe5 38. Qxe5 Rxe5 39. Nd3 Rd5 40. Rc3 Ba6 41. Ne1 Rd1 42. Re3 Bb7 43. Kf1 Rb1 44. Ke2 Rb2 45. resign 0-1 Long live to the French defence!


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Sleepy kitten YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 27 Joined: 07/28/08	Re: A little difficulty in the Guimard variation Reply #8 - 08/12/08 at 03:26:47	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ok, I'm going to explore all that. Thank you very much!


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dom God Member Offline Posts: 908 Location: Toulouse Joined: 01/11/03 Gender:	Re: A little difficulty in the Guimard variation Reply #7 - 08/11/08 at 23:17:00	Post Tools	Print Post
	OK...end of analysis for me..yes, Sleepy has enough material to study.

	“Learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.” - Groucho Marx
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Michael Ayton God Member Online ‘You’re never alone with a doppelgänger.’ Posts: 1975 Location: durham Joined: 04/19/03 Gender:	Re: A little difficulty in the Guimard variation Reply #6 - 08/10/08 at 19:31:14	Post Tools	Print Post
	[quote]I don't like the slow Kf8-g6 (in other variations a good idea), because too slow if White plays a c4 move. [/quote] You took the words right out of my mouth! Given White’s c2--c4 lever I didn’t think artificial castling with ...g6 in this position was likely to be the best. It might be worth noting though that Vaganian castled ‘by hand’ by means of …Kf8, …Kg8 and an eventual …Kh7, without …g6! 10 …h6 is very sharp and interesting! Even so, I wonder what the plan is after say 11 Bf4 c5 12 c4 Bb7 13 Qe2. Maybe Black can actually castle, having enough play against d4 and c4 to impede White’s attack (after most other moves I think he’ll be forced to castle soon anyway), but I can’t help thinking White ought to be able to use the tempo spent on …h6 to get a positional edge. I also wonder if 10 …Bb7 or 10 …c5 might be the most accurate on the grounds that if (as I’m inclined to think) c4, and not dxc5 first, is likely to be White’s best answer to …c5 anyway, Black can save himself the semi-waiting move and hold …h6 in possible reserve. If White does play dxc5 and then c4, then maybe Black can play …d4, whereon …g5 (without …h6 first) might be a real threat; if on the other hand White plays c2--c3, Black can play …c5 and …c4, aggressing on the queenside as in the McCutcheon without having played either …h6 or castles (a sophistication of my earlier idea!); he may then want/need to play …g6. Of course all this is rather removed from concrete variations … Anyway I hope Sleepy kitten has lots of thoughts to play with! (It should be added, though, that it is possible to play the Guimard and sidestep these variations completely, by meeting 6 Nb3 with 6 …f6!? and 6 Bb5 with 6 …a6!?.)


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dom God Member Offline Posts: 908 Location: Toulouse Joined: 01/11/03 Gender:	Re: A little difficulty in the Guimard variation Reply #5 - 08/10/08 at 12:26:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	The idea of h6 is delaying short castle a little...White is not in hurry to play that move without any counterplay vs White pawn center. 10...h6 11.Bf4 (one point is White bishop on f4 doesn't attack anything, protects the e5 pawn and bishop is developed outside the pawn chain ; now if Black doesn't short castle one plan can be the pawn break g5-g4 and another can be Bg5 in some variations) c5! and now White must play against the c4-pawn fork 12.c4 (or 12.dxc5 bxc5) Bb7 (the good move if White pays c4). I don't like the slow Kf8-g6 (in other variations a good idea), because too slow if White plays a c4 move.

	“Learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.” - Groucho Marx
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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10776 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: A little difficulty in the Guimard variation Reply #4 - 08/09/08 at 13:18:39	Post Tools	Print Post
	Of course 10...h6 11.Bf4 0-0 comes close to suicide. Better 11...c5 instead and one idea is ...Kf8, ...g6 and ...Kg7, after which Black's position seems hard to crack, similar to the MacCutcheon. I am not be very fond of playing ...c4 (after ...c5 of course) as Black's counterplay on the Queen's Wing will belong to the past.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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Michael Ayton God Member Online ‘You’re never alone with a doppelgänger.’ Posts: 1975 Location: durham Joined: 04/19/03 Gender:	Re: A little difficulty in the Guimard variation Reply #3 - 08/09/08 at 10:04:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	10 …h6 – h’mm! Aren’t the weaknesses liable to be significant? -- e.g. 11 Bf4 and if Black castles the battery could be serious, e.g. 11 ..0-0 12 c3 c5 13 Bb1 and now after say 13 …Nc6, 14 Bh6! looks like it could be on. And if Black doesn’t castle, what’s his plan? After 10 …0-0 11 c3 c5 12 Bb1 c4 13 Nbd2 I was assuming 13 …Nc6 (on 13 …f6 I think even just 14 ef is horrible for Black), but maybe here White can, after 14 Qc2 g6, omit b2--b3 for now and build up on the kingside with Re1, Nf1, Bh6 and Qd2; Black can obviously arrange …b6--b5 but is it enough? I wonder therefore if instead of 12 …c4 just 12 …Re8 might be best, refusing to touch the kingside pawns and following up with …Ba6 and …Nc6. Maybe one question then is whether Black can generate enough counterplay if White rushes his h-pawn down the board with Bf4, g3 and h4--h5? Of course, after 10 …0-0, 11 c3 isn’t the only plan. I was concerned at least as much about 11 Qe2 and 11 Bd2, meeting 11 …c5 [[i]but[/i] 11 ...Bb7!? might be better, by analogy with Liberzon--Vaganian below, playing ...c5 in response to c3] with 12 c4 in both cases. Maybe Black is OK after 12 …dc 13 Bc4 Bb7 or even just 12 …Nc6!? -- what do you think? In general I think the positional plan of c2--c4 (also on move 6!) poses a serious question for the Guimard. The Malakhov--Zhang Zhong game offers no illumination on the strength of this plan, since M. met 9 …b6 with 10 Bd2 and play then went 10 …c5 (!, McDonald) 11 dc Nc5 12 Nc5 bc 13 b3 Nc6 14 0-0 0-0 15 Re1 Nb4 16 Bb5 Ba6 17 c4 Bb7 and Black was fine. [i]But[/i], I was neglecting the classics!! I've just noticed that in the game Liberzon--Vaganian 1980 Vaganian played here 9 ...b6 10 0-0 Bb7! -- the idea of which is presumably to defer castling until White has revealed his plan and it's safer. (In the game he castled artificially!) See also Sargissian--Riazantsev 1997, which went 9 ...b6 10 c4 Bb7 11 0-0 0-0 12 Qe2 Re8, and Black equalised (and later won) without in fact ever playing ...c7--c5.
	« Last Edit: 08/09/08 at 11:08:40 by Michael Ayton »

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dom

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Re: A little difficulty in the Guimard variation
Reply #2 - 08/09/08 at 07:56:49

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Agree, Watson doesn't analyzes fully the position...only a short note about transposition in analytical section and I believe the position is not in the main lines, because White plays Nb3 and the system with Bb5.

Watson refers to McDonald's analysis here on chesspublishing. Not being a gold-member I have only recorded: Malakhov-Zhang Zong,Ergun 2006 (chesspublishing july 2006) after 8.Bb5

For first moves, I have good alternatives for White/Black. Psakhis wrote (in "French Nd2") that Black can play a5 at move 3. And in fact you can find the excentric move a5 (instead of Guimard Nc6) in Sjugirov-Nepomniaschchy,Russia 2006

After 9.Bd3 I prefer the main plan for Black: 9...b6 (to play bxc5 after a next c5) 10.oo (10.Bd2 to attack a5 and force Black to take with a bishop/knight after a future c5, see update July 2006).

10.oo (10.c4 Bb4+ =) h6! my suggestion.

I agree with M.Ayton 10..oo!? but I have a mix feeling for Black and somewhat passive play if WHite doesn't engineer the pawn break b3, but manages a kingside attack. 11.c3 c5 12.Bb1 c4 (12...Ba6 13.Qc2 g6 14.Re1 Rc8 15.Bh6 Re8 16.Qd2 (plan is top put pieces on black color squares h4,Qf4) Nc6 17.Qf4 +=) 13.Nbd2 f6 14.Re1 fxe5 (14...Nc6?! 15.exf6 Nxf6 - 15...Rxf6? 16.Bxh7+! Kxh7 17.Ng5+ and Nxe6 - 16.Qc2) 15.Nxe5 Nxe5 16.Rxe5 Bd6 17.Qh5 (to forbid Qh4) h6 (17..g6? 18.Bxg6) 18.Re2 Qf6 19.Nf3 += and I prefer White

h6 is suggested because I am reading Watson Dangerous weapons and the move is in the spirit of the book. To be honest, this move is part of many plans in French defence, and a good brother move to b6. Main advantages is Black has flexible plans and h6 is not such a weakness on the kingside. White mus be careful because if he plays the pawn break c4 then Black can take the c4 pawn and play Bb7, castle and has a very good position.

“Learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.” - Groucho Marx

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Michael Ayton God Member Online ‘You’re never alone with a doppelgänger.’ Posts: 1975 Location: durham Joined: 04/19/03 Gender:	Re: A little difficulty in the Guimard variation Reply #1 - 08/08/08 at 22:12:06	Post Tools	Print Post
	H'mm. I see what you mean. I've no experience with this line but maybe Black can try the risky 10 ...0-0!? I wondered whether after your 12 Bb1 Black could play 12 ...c4!? (not a move you normally see in the Guimard!?) 13 Nbd2 Nc6, meeting Qc2 with ...g6, then ...Ba6 at some point hoping that White's one obvious break, b2--b3, will favour Black more than White.


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Sleepy kitten YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 27 Joined: 07/28/08	C04: A little difficulty in the Guimard variation 08/08/08 at 02:26:18	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hello! After having read John Watson's Dangerous Weapons I have started playing the Guimard with Black. Yet, I have some difficulties with the following line which I encounter quite often. 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nc6 4.Ngf3 Nf6 5.e5 Nfd7 (as usual) and then 6.Nb3 a5 7.a4 Be7 8.Bb5 Na7 9.Bd3 This is the move. The main move is 9.Be2 and Mr. Watson writes in a note that if the bishop retreats on d3, it will have to lose time avec ...b6 and ...c5 and that this move will be further looked at later in the chapter. Alas, he does not come back on this position. After 9...b6 (I played once 9...c5? but after 10.Nxc5 Nxc5 11.dxc5 Bxc5 12.o-o Nc6 13.c4 dxc4 14.Bxc4 Qxd1 15.Rxd1 Bd7 16.Bb5 f6 17.exf6 gxf6 18.Nd2 o-o-o 19.Nb3 difficulties remain) 10.o-o c5 (10...o-o as after 9.Be2 looks quite risky, doesn't it? 11.c3 c5 12.Bb1) 11.c4 and I am not sure how to go on. I see no promising direction.
	« Last Edit: 07/27/11 at 18:37:18 by dom »

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