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Normal Topic C11: 3...Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. f4 c5 6. Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 (Read 3660 times)
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Re: 3...Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. f4 c5 6. Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3
Reply #9 - 08/18/08 at 18:59:50
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Veeeeery quickly on the exchange variation (I mean double exchange on d4 followed by ...Qb6):

a) In my view the gambit line with Qd2 isn't enough (although of course with the clock ticking (can i say ticking as we use only digital clocks today?!) it's not that easy) if black plays ...Ke7 and not Kf8 as in a Shirov-Bareev game (afterwords Bareev switched to Ke7) as white should take the draw with Qb4 and Nf5).

b) therefore with should exchange queens too. The resultig position is very solid. In my view a good starting point is a Kasparov-Bareev game of quite a few years ago. Kasparov won but Bareev helped. Improvements can be found with computer-aid.
I have played quite a few games vs Rybka in this line as black and I have managed to draw almost 2/3 of them, although Rybka often sacs another pawn around move 18 (black st some point plays ...g5 and then ...f6: Rybka gives black the e5 pawn for initiative) which ins't that effective if black has already lost to it and thus learnt what to do.  Grin

I know I am very vague and I am not submitting move numbers but I don't have a chessboard or chess program here to count the moves and I can't post my analisys and games vs Rybka as they were lost when my computer (literally) exploded (yep, no backup copies until then! Cry)

When I'll be back to the "civil" world (i.e. my house with chessbase and a chessboard) if I remember I'll try and post what I have.

Cheers!
  
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Re: 3...Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. f4 c5 6. Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3
Reply #8 - 08/12/08 at 18:27:56
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My analysis was done early in the morning before going to sleep ... hence no difficulty to admit I can do better analyis.  Tongue All in all, I don't want to do much more work, because myself playing as Black will not run into this precise position (using my chosen system) ... and I play Winawer and no more Steinitz in tournaments.  Cool

Thanks SF for a wake of the big thread !!

OK,OK just I little words about the position, because I already recorded the good moves in my Bookup database... 8...Bc5 (as guessed by you and me) and 8...a6 are candidates. Both of them are leading to main plans, but one original idea from Savchenko is: 8...Bc5  9.Qd2 (you cannot avoid 9.Bxc5 Nxc5 10.Qd4 when Black must again assess position and find plan ; or 9.Qd3 Bxd4 10.Qxd4 transposes to one main position white after 10...Qb6 Kasparov tried the gambit Qd2!? this gambit was used in Shirov-Bareev,Wijk aan Zee 2003 ; 10.Qxb6 and 10.Nb5!? are too good alternatives moves) b6
  

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Re: 3...Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. f4 c5 6. Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3
Reply #7 - 08/12/08 at 15:57:21
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dom wrote on 08/11/08 at 23:07:53:
If White to move, White can play Qg4 one move to stop Black developping f8 bishop and short castle. It's White plan to long castle AND delay Black development. Of course Black can develop his queen,  knight on d7 or bishop on f8 before.

If knight move: 1...Nb6 then 2.Qg4 Nc4 3.Bxc4 dxc4 4.ooo and now queen moves but situatiion has changed: always better development for White, and White can play Ne4 ... but maybe Black has counterplay. Thus we improve the line with 2.Bb5+ Bd7 3.Qe2 and now  knight cannot go to c4 without giving a pawn and 3....Bxb5 4.Qxb5+ Qd7 5.Bxb6.

If queen moves 1...Qa5 then 2.Qg4 and if 2...Nb6 then 3.Bb5+ Bd7 4.Bxd7+ Kxd7 5.oo and Black king is unsafe in the center.

Best move is 1..Bc5 attacking the d4 bishop and oo to follow, or 1..Nb8 to play Nc6 next move.

Bc5 prevents f5 because of Qh4+. White cannot reply Nb5 because of immediate oo.



*******

My view of position is despite White is a little better, immediate plan for Black is to exchange the good d4 bishop. The idea of f4 in the opening is not to improve the dark square bishop but to control e5 pawn. If Black manages an exchange of bishop in good conditions (for example if a rook goes to d4) thenBlack can play f6 or g5 to weaken pawn structure.


In your line 1...Nb6 2.Bb5+ Bd7 3.Qe2 and now for instance 3...a6 and I'm not sure white has achieved anything really. 4.Bxb6 Qxb6 5.Bxd7 is nice for black in my opinion.

1...Qa5 looks very strange in itself (what is the point? )

1...Bc5 might be good since it trades pieces, as long as he can activate or trade Bc8 later.

Otherwise one could consider 1...Be7 but as someone mentioned, black is not necesserily better 0-0ed than to stay in the centre. Thus I think 1...Be7 seems a little with out a real plan.

As I said, my feeling is that black should play to prevent f5 by white and look to exchange pieces at the same time. But again I might (most probably) be wrong in this assesment which is why I am looking for anyones opinion and I appreciate your thoughts.

Personally I would say it's between 1...Bc5 and 1...Bb4 to trade pieces and prepare to play either 0-0 or Ke7 some time. After 1...Nb6 black doesn't seem to be able to develop quickly enought and trade minor pieces and your other suggestion 2.Qg4 looks logical to me. Black will also play a6 some time aswell in order to protect d6.
« Last Edit: 08/12/08 at 17:06:17 by Bocajaka »  
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Re: 3...Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. f4 c5 6. Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3
Reply #6 - 08/12/08 at 15:43:46
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/12/08 at 07:36:58:
This is just a reminder that one of the longest threads in the history of the Chess Pub was on the Steinitz starting from this position.  I don't have the address at hand, but it contained many interesting ideas from a variety of very strong players.  I dare say it even expanded theory a bit!  Check it out!


Thanks for the heads up! I could not search for previous threads on this topic since I did not know it was called the Steintiz.
  
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Re: 3...Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. f4 c5 6. Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3
Reply #5 - 08/12/08 at 07:36:58
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This is just a reminder that one of the longest threads in the history of the Chess Pub was on the Steinitz starting from this position.  I don't have the address at hand, but it contained many interesting ideas from a variety of very strong players.  I dare say it even expanded theory a bit!  Check it out!
  
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Re: 3...Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. f4 c5 6. Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3
Reply #4 - 08/11/08 at 23:07:53
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You are on the right way...but the more precise would be "I need to ASSESS the position" (and not "understand" the position).
In other words you'll need to use your positional knowledge to decide which side (White or Black) is better and why. Position you set is a good one, because you can make your mind in short time, that no immediate tactics wins material.
Positional knowledge is made of many elements:  weaknesses, developpement, space advantage, pawn structure and so on.

Best is to start with pawn structure: no permanent weakness (double pawns), two pawn chains same kind each side with only difference c2 vs d5 pawn, no passed pawn, center is not closed (with pawns).

Pure topic of square weaknesses: Black is better (only one weak square d6 for Black and two weak squares for White e3 e4). For diagonal weakness: the d3-h7 diagonale is weak for Black in current position.

Material is same but White is better developped (2 tempi) and White pieces are more active (enough to look at number of reachable squares).

Space advantage: obviously for White in center and kingside.

King safety: not so great each side. White is worse for king safety: no pawn on nearest squares.

My assessement is position is for White because of temporary advantages (developement). White has to keep piece on board (limit exchanges) in order to transform space advantage. White must castle quickly and after castle open lines on kingside. Black must try to exchange pieces, put king in safety and then use a classical pawn break f6 (to attack head of pawn chain since basis on h2 cannot be attacked easily).

Black is only one move for short castle and three for long castle. Short castle is here the normal one. For White castle is done in two moves (moving queen or light square bishop).

If White to move, White can play Qg4 one move to stop Black developping f8 bishop and short castle. It's White plan to long castle AND delay Black development. Of course Black can develop his queen,  knight on d7 or bishop on f8 before.

If knight move: 1...Nb6 then 2.Qg4 Nc4 3.Bxc4 dxc4 4.ooo and now queen moves but situatiion has changed: always better development for White, and White can play Ne4 ... but maybe Black has counterplay. Thus we improve the line with 2.Bb5+ Bd7 3.Qe2 and now  knight cannot go to c4 without giving a pawn and 3....Bxb5 4.Qxb5+ Qd7 5.Bxb6.

If queen moves 1...Qa5 then 2.Qg4 and if 2...Nb6 then 3.Bb5+ Bd7 4.Bxd7+ Kxd7 5.oo and Black king is unsafe in the center.

Best move is 1..Bc5 attacking the d4 bishop and oo to follow, or 1..Nb8 to play Nc6 next move.

Bc5 prevents f5 because of Qh4+. White cannot reply Nb5 because of immediate oo.



*******

My view of position is despite White is a little better, immediate plan for Black is to exchange the good d4 bishop. The idea of f4 in the opening is not to improve the dark square bishop but to control e5 pawn. If Black manages an exchange of bishop in good conditions (for example if a rook goes to d4) thenBlack can play f6 or g5 to weaken pawn structure.
  

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Re: 3...Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. f4 c5 6. Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3
Reply #3 - 08/10/08 at 17:31:17
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Thank you for the great survey, it is exactly what I was looking for! Unfortunetely I have no idea where to start from here and what questions to ask. I will have to play some games and look more in detail at each move and pose some questions as I go along.

The only move I have experience of at the moment is 7...cxd4 8.Nxd4 Nxd4 9.Bxd4 Nb6 (seems strange to me). But instead of talking about theory and what move is best I think it's better to try to understand this position.

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Somehow I feel like I don't need to learn any variations or plans in this position but instead I will be able to find my way if I understand both respective plans.

To me it seems white wants to play for f4 in order to improve Bd4 and open the f-file. Without having looked at any variations I don't see how black can get any active play in this position thus I htink black wants to exchange some pieces and try to reach an equal endgame somehow. What is your view on this position?

The other option is to play 9.Qxd4 but I don't quite see the idea with this move although I'm sure there is one.

In any case I greatly appreciate both of your help!
  
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Re: 3...Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. f4 c5 6. Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3
Reply #2 - 08/10/08 at 13:53:18
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Here is a short survey of Boleslavsky variation (with Be3 and f4). Main ideas are control of a7-g1 diagonal and occupation of the blockade d4 square. Idea of blockade is common with advance variation and is part of Nimzowitsch strategy.

A) 7...Qb6
first move to undertand because part of Boleslavsky main system. Game reference: Bronstein-Portisch,Amsterdam 1964 (Tiemann)
White attack at once the b2 pawn and add control to a7-g1 diag.
Now two  main moves: Na4 and Qd2 and one all purpose move: a3

A1) 8.Na4! (Boleslavsky plan: White attack the queen to improve control over d4) Qa5+ 9.c3  with 3 moves 9...cxd4!? (sacrifice of piece for pawns) ; 9...b6!? (a Khalifman suggestion, the idea is to exchange the bad bishop with Ba6);  9...c4 (Chandler-Vaganian,Leningrad 1987)

A2) 8.Qd2 a pawn sacrifice for an attack. Ritov-Bistrov,Grodno 1988 (Short)

A3) 8.a3 (a move which deters Qxb2) cxd4! 9. Nxd4 Bc5 10.Na4 Qa5+ 11.c3 Bxbd4 12.Bxd4 Nxd4 14.Qxd4 15.Qb4 axb4= (White runs into a favorable ending)

B) 7...cxd4 8.Nxd4
Now White posts a knight,bishop or queen on d4 square but Black will attack this piece...and Qb6 or Bc5 are good moves because Na4 doesn' work anymore

B1) 8...Qb6 (as usual one main move to attack d4 and b2) 9.Qd2! (or 9.a3 transpose to A3 line ; now we see the poisoned pawn gambit in another position) Qxb2 (9..Nxd4 leads to ending which favours White with a grip on dark squares 10.Bd4 Bc5 11.ooo Bxd4 12.Qxd4 Qxd4 13.Rxd4) 10.Rb1 Qa3 and now White has some attacking plan. See for example: Bologan-Volkov,Rethymon 2003

B2) 8...Bc5 9.Qd2
Modern line according to Nunn. Now White wants to long castle (in fact mandatory after 9...oo: 10.Be2 the pseudo sacrifice 10..Ndxe5! works)
Now Black has one principle move: 9...a6 and rare move Qe7, or the exchange on d4 leading to ending
9..a6!? and now White has 4 good systems: 10.Qf2!? ; 10.h4 ; 10.Nb3!? (Nijboer) and 10.Nce2!?
Hudge thread on current forum is about Nb3

C) 7...a6
Preparing b5 and also Qb6/Qa5. Not good idea for White to prepare short castle because 8.Be2 b5= 9.oo?! Qb6
And now 8.Qd2! is best move (8a3 Qb6!?)
Then it follows 8...b5! (if cxd4-Nxd4 then game transposes to A or B lines above because Black cannot play b5)
and my best plan for White among the 12 moves (dxc5,Ne2,ooo,Be2,Bd3?!,a3!?,g3,h4!?;Qf2!?,f5,a4,Nd1) is 9.dxc5

D) 7... Rb8
Not so bad move, Black wants to play b5 without playing a6..but he need Qa5 and sometimes White plays a3 and Ra2 to forbid b4.
For example: 8.Qd2 Qa5 (8...c4 9.f5 b5? - 9...Be7 is Ivanchuk idea - ! 10.fxe6 fxe6 11.Ng5!? Hellers-Ivanchuk,Tilburg 1993 (Tiemann))
and now 9.a3 b5 10.Ra2!? Bologan-Korchnoi,Gibraltar 2005


  

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Re: 3...Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. f4 c5 6. Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3
Reply #1 - 08/10/08 at 10:38:12
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I will focus on 7...a6, because that's the only move I understand well enough to spend a few words on it. The plan is simply ...a6; ...b5; ...b4; ...a5 and eventually ...Ba6 to activate the Queen's Bishop. It also helps to gain space on the Queen's Wing. Black must be careful though as White's f4-f5 is sometimes deadly. Castling queenside becomes unattractive for White of course as Black already has begun a pawnstorm. It is nice if White plays x.dxc5 as exchanging some light pieces benefits Black. So it is usually answered with x...Bxc5 y.Bxc5 Nxc5. This helps Black completing his development and takes full control of square e4. White usually maintains the tension and the really hard question is if/when to play ...cxd4. Of course Black's King remains in the centre for a long time, but it is not unsafer there than after castling.
  

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C11: 3...Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. f4 c5 6. Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3
08/10/08 at 10:25:14
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After 1. e4 e6   2. d4 d5   3. Nc3 Nf6   4. e5 Nfd7   5. f4 c5   6. Nf3
Nc6   7. Be3

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Many moves have been played. I think it is more important to understand the ideas in this position rather than memorising the moves.

I have never played 3.Nc3 before so I was hoping someone could give a brief explanation of 7...cxd4, 7...a6, 7...Qb6, 7...Be7, 7...Rb8 in this position.

I will probably end up having to buy the whole chessbase series on the 3.Nc3 french anyway but for now I would like to simply get briefly aquinted with it. I currently have the volume covering dxe4.
« Last Edit: 07/27/11 at 18:44:38 by dom »  
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