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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all (Read 31847 times)
Boomie
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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #11 - 08/26/08 at 20:52:01
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TGO wrote on 08/21/08 at 22:03:07:
Noomen is wrong. (or better to say his book is too old, and yes I know it came out a few week ago, but this is how long it takes for novelties in sicilians)

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bg5 e6 7. f4 Qb6 8. Qd2 Qxb2 9 Rb1 Qa3 10. e5!! h6 11. Bh4 dxe5 12. fxe5 Nd5 13. Nxd5 exd5 14. Bc4! Bc5 15. Bxd5 0-0 16. Rb3! Qxa2 17. 0-0 Nc6 18. Rg3!! (black is lost) Nxd4 19. Kh1 Qxc2 20. Qxc2 Nxc2 21. Bf6 g5 22. Rf4

Smiley

ps: How can you people be surprised that these lines aren't covered in books? it takes longer to print a book than it takes for a novelty to be discovered (and ofcourse they aren't anywhere else, that's why we call them novelties)
And in human play the above move (18. Rg3!! ) is a novelty in computer chess it's just yesterday's news Smiley



Looks like 14...Be7 is better.  I'm not finding any advantage for white.  Check it out.
  
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flaviddude
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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #10 - 08/25/08 at 09:47:27
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Strategy_Rules wrote on 08/22/08 at 10:28:56:
I actually totally agree with 10.e5 being not dangerous after all. But 
its not because of the line in Rybka 3 book, its because of the line Kasparov recommended for black already a long time ago (yes, the exchange sacrifice). I know that white does not have to take the rook immediatly and can castle first, but this does not change anything, if black leaves his rook on f8 and plays a clever move instead. Anyway, I think playchess theory (engine room) is much overestimated (especially by the people who play there Smiley) ) I believe they are even all together still years behind Kasparov's (privat) analysis.


Well I cannot make any comments on this as I have a correspondence game featuring this line. I wonder whether my opponent reads this forum.
  

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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #9 - 08/23/08 at 10:49:12
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I dont play PP with either colour so I have not bother to look at the exchange sac (so I dont know if the novelty changes the assesment) but if everything Kasparov has ever played or recommended is correct does this mean that even the Dragon is correct? Does all his moves stand the test of time?

Also the Rybka 3 book claims to have a refutation of the Sveshnikov based on a novelty made by computer analysing.
  
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TGO
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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #8 - 08/22/08 at 11:30:30
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you are probably correct, but they are way ahead of published theory.

(about the exchange sac  I don't really know, haven't analisded.)
  
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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #7 - 08/22/08 at 10:28:56
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I actually totally agree with 10.e5 being not dangerous after all. But 
its not because of the line in Rybka 3 book, its because of the line Kasparov recommended for black already a long time ago (yes, the exchange sacrifice). I know that white does not have to take the rook immediatly and can castle first, but this does not change anything, if black leaves his rook on f8 and plays a clever move instead. Anyway, I think playchess theory (engine room) is much overestimated (especially by the people who play there Smiley) ) I believe they are even all together still years behind Kasparov's (privat) analysis.
  
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TGO
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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #6 - 08/22/08 at 08:53:18
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computer and human analysis, but by now many engine games have  been played in it  Tongue


what are your thoughts on an immidiate 12...g5 ? It seems to work much better than 12...Nd5  I don't have much analysis on it yet and am working on other lines at the moment so I don't have a clue  Smiley
  
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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #5 - 08/22/08 at 08:25:44
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Quote:
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bg5 e6 7. f4 Qb6 8. Qd2 Qxb2 9 Rb1 Qa3 10. e5!!  h6 11. Bh4 dxe5 12. fxe5 Nd5 13. Nxd5 exd5 14. Bc4! Bc5 15. Bxd5 0-0 16. Rb3! Qxa2 17. 0-0 Nc6 18. Rg3!! (black is lost) Nxd4 19. Kh1 Qxc2 20. Qxc2 Nxc2 21. Bf6 g5 22. Rf4


I'm impressed, is this analysis or an enginegame?
  
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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #4 - 08/21/08 at 22:25:30
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I looked at it a little more later, what about 12...g5 ?
I don't have a refutation in my opening book, anyone?
  
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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #3 - 08/21/08 at 22:03:07
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Noomen is wrong. (or better to say his book is too old, and yes I know it came out a few week ago, but this is how long it takes for novelties in sicilians)

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bg5 e6 7. f4 Qb6 8. Qd2 Qxb2 9 Rb1 Qa3 10. e5!! h6 11. Bh4 dxe5 12. fxe5 Nd5 13. Nxd5 exd5 14. Bc4! Bc5 15. Bxd5 0-0 16. Rb3! Qxa2 17. 0-0 Nc6 18. Rg3!! (black is lost) Nxd4 19. Kh1 Qxc2 20. Qxc2 Nxc2 21. Bf6 g5 22. Rf4

Smiley

ps: How can you people be surprised that these lines aren't covered in books? it takes longer to print a book than it takes for a novelty to be discovered (and ofcourse they aren't anywhere else, that's why we call them novelties)
And in human play the above move (18. Rg3!! ) is a novelty in computer chess it's just yesterday's news Smiley
  
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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #2 - 08/14/08 at 15:58:23
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Kopperhed wrote on 08/14/08 at 00:28:41:
"In 2007 the Poison Pawn variation of the Sicilian Najdorf was experiencing a crisis due to 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6
5. Nc3 a6 6. Bg5 e6 7. f4 Qb6 8. Qd2 Qxb2 9 Rb1 Qa3 10. e5!?.  The Rybka 3 book shows you a fairly easy solution to black's problems:
10....h6 11. Bh4 dxe5 12. fxe5 and now instead of the usual 12. ...Nfd7:
12. ...Nd5!"  Computer programs on very fast hardware have failed to show even an edge for white after this surprising continuation."

What do you all think about this continuation?  I couldn't find any games with 12. ...Nd5 in either Megabase or Hugebase.  I'm definitely not an analyst, but I'm a big fan of the Poison Pawn variation.  I'm interested in what some of the analyst here come up with! Smiley


After 10..h6, I prefer 11.Bxf6 gf 12.ed6 which side steps Black's move order. If Black plays 10..de, then 11.fe h6 12.Bf4! gives White a nice attacking position.
  
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blueguitar322
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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #1 - 08/14/08 at 15:40:56
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Hmm, that's interesting. There's nothing about this line in Nunn's "Complete Najdorf: 6 Bg5" (though it is quite dated) and no reference to it in "The Sharpest Sicilian"
  
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Kopperhed
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Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
08/14/08 at 00:28:41
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With the release of the Rybka 3 Opening Book, this was posted on the Rybka website in the section concerning the new Rybka 3 Opening Book.

"In 2007 the Poison Pawn variation of the Sicilian Najdorf was experiencing a crisis due to 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6
5. Nc3 a6 6. Bg5 e6 7. f4 Qb6 8. Qd2 Qxb2 9 Rb1 Qa3 10. e5!?.  The Rybka 3 book shows you a fairly easy solution to black's problems:
10....h6 11. Bh4 dxe5 12. fxe5 and now instead of the usual 12. ...Nfd7:
12. ...Nd5!"  Computer programs on very fast hardware have failed to show even an edge for white after this surprising continuation."

What do you all think about this continuation?  I couldn't find any games with 12. ...Nd5 in either Megabase or Hugebase.  I'm definitely not an analyst, but I'm a big fan of the Poison Pawn variation.  I'm interested in what some of the analyst here come up with! Smiley
  
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