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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all (Read 31988 times)
Markovich
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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #26 - 09/02/08 at 12:04:53
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I don't give two whoops in a hollow what Rybka "thinks" about 14.e6, nor do I appreciate anyone's stuffing an engine vs. engine game onto this board, burdened after every move by the machine's numerical idea of Truth.  And why would anyone be interested in the time the machines take to find their moves?

What I do think would be constructive would be anyone's posting actual analysis of 14.e6 here, expanding upon and improving for either side the provisional analysis that I posted above.  14...Bxe6 is a good try; maybe someone would care to comment further upon that.  Use a machine by all means; I usually do when analyzing sharp variations; but apply some judgement of your own, and for God's sake spare us mechanized evaluations, which are worth less than nothing.   


P.S. I might well be wrong, but my intuition would be that 15.Rxb7 is probably not the best answer to 14...Bxe6.  The important thing is to keep Black from castling, and I don't see how 15.Rxb7 facilitates that.
  

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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #25 - 09/02/08 at 10:10:45
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Without reading the game I say that that game proves nothing since Rybka is the stronger engine and if the Rybka had been white than white would have won.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #24 - 09/01/08 at 14:10:11
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parisestmagique wrote on 09/01/08 at 07:25:52:
Fine, but was about 14.e6! the Black position seems very hard to handle ... 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Bg5 e6 
7.f4 Qb6 8.Qd2 Qxb2 9.Rb1 Qa3 10.e5!! h6 11.Bh4 dxe5 12.fxe5 Nd5 13.Nxd5 exd5 14.e6


To me, this looks like a good idea.  At least after 14...fxe6 15.Bd3, White appears to have plenty of compensation.  For example 15...Be7 16.Bxe7 Qxe7 17.Bg6+ Kd8 18.0-0 Qc5 19.Qe3 Qd6 20.Rbe1, or 15...Bc5 16.Bg6+ Kd7 17.Rf1, or 15...g5 16.Rb3 Qc5 (16...Qa4 17.Qc3) 17.Bf2.   

I also looked at 14...Qxa7 15.exf7+ Kxf7 16.Rd1 Nc6 (maybe Black can improve here, but for example, 16...Kg8 17.Bd3 Nc6 18.Nxc6 bxc6 19.0-0 Bc5+ 20.Kh1 and White's attack is worth much more than two pawns, I opine) 17.Bd3 Nxd4 18.0-0+ Nf5 (18...Bf5 19.Ra1 is even better for White) 19.Ra1 Qxa1 20.Rxa1 Nxh4 21.Rf1+ Kg8 22.Qe1, which again looks quite good for White.

So it would seem, provisionally, that 14.Bc4"!" is not the best move after all and that your 14.e6 idea is the way to go.  If this is true, then 12...Nd5 looks like a bad idea.   

[I think that in general, a lot fewer exclamation points and question marks should be sprinkled into any given analysis.  The terminal evaluations tell the story; the purpose of exclamation points frequently is for the annotator to congratulate himself, and their main effect is to discourage critical thinking.  10.e5"!!" indeed (know that's not your punctuation).]
  

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parisestmagique
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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #23 - 09/01/08 at 07:25:52
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Fine, but was about 14.e6! the Black position seems very hard to handle ... 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Bg5 e6 
7.f4 Qb6 8.Qd2 Qxb2 9.Rb1 Qa3 10.e5!! h6 11.Bh4 dxe5 12.fxe5 Nd5 13.Nxd5 exd5 14.e6
  
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Markovich
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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #22 - 08/31/08 at 18:57:11
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Q wrote on 08/30/08 at 15:54:33:
Willempie wrote on 08/29/08 at 09:30:02:
Boomie wrote on 08/26/08 at 20:52:01:
TGO wrote on 08/21/08 at 22:03:07:
Noomen is wrong. (or better to say his book is too old, and yes I know it came out a few week ago, but this is how long it takes for novelties in sicilians)

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bg5 e6 7. f4 Qb6 8. Qd2 Qxb2 9 Rb1 Qa3 10. e5!! h6 11. Bh4 dxe5 12. fxe5 Nd5 13. Nxd5 exd5 14. Bc4! Bc5 15. Bxd5 0-0 16. Rb3! Qxa2 17. 0-0 Nc6 18. Rg3!! (black is lost) Nxd4 19. Kh1 Qxc2 20. Qxc2 Nxc2 21. Bf6 g5 22. Rf4

Smiley

ps: How can you people be surprised that these lines aren't covered in books? it takes longer to print a book than it takes for a novelty to be discovered (and ofcourse they aren't anywhere else, that's why we call them novelties)
And in human play the above move (18. Rg3!! ) is a novelty in computer chess it's just yesterday's news Smiley



Looks like 14...Be7 is better.  I'm not finding any advantage for white.  Check it out.

I did and I dont see it. 15.Bxe7 Qxe7 16.Bxd5 and I really don't like black. Material is equal, but he is as developed as a 3rd world country, that has been hit by an eruption, earthquake, tsunami and a civil war.


After 16. ... Qxe5+ 17. Qe2 Nd7 Black has a pawn and a forced exchange of the queens to compensate for his misery.

White at best has a slight advantage.



This idea fails to 18.Bxf7+ Kxf7 19.0-0+ Kg8 (19...Ke7 20.Qd2) 20.Qc4+ Kh7 21.Qd3+ Kg8 22.Rbe1.  Of course Black should play 19...Ke7 20.Bd5 Qxe2+ 21.Kxe2 but it seems that White's better development more than makes up for his worse pawns.  E.g. 21...Nc5 22.Kf2.

However, after 17...Qxe2 18.Kxe2 Ra7 19.c4 0-0, I'm not sure that White has all that much advantage.  In fact I might prefer Black and his extra pawn.  Nor does 18.Nxe7 look much better.

So for the time being, I will agree that 14...Be7 is both correct and adequate.

Hmm, thinking about this further, could it be that White should block the other way on e2?  17.Ne7 0-0 18.0-0 Nc6 19.Nf4 or 18...Nd7 19.Nf4 perhaps is a way to try to play for the win, but I would think that Black is O.K.
  

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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #21 - 08/30/08 at 16:59:33
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The main thing is to get rid of this bloody bishop on h4. Having done just that, black is fine.
  
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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #20 - 08/30/08 at 15:54:33
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Willempie wrote on 08/29/08 at 09:30:02:
Boomie wrote on 08/26/08 at 20:52:01:
TGO wrote on 08/21/08 at 22:03:07:
Noomen is wrong. (or better to say his book is too old, and yes I know it came out a few week ago, but this is how long it takes for novelties in sicilians)

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bg5 e6 7. f4 Qb6 8. Qd2 Qxb2 9 Rb1 Qa3 10. e5!! h6 11. Bh4 dxe5 12. fxe5 Nd5 13. Nxd5 exd5 14. Bc4! Bc5 15. Bxd5 0-0 16. Rb3! Qxa2 17. 0-0 Nc6 18. Rg3!! (black is lost) Nxd4 19. Kh1 Qxc2 20. Qxc2 Nxc2 21. Bf6 g5 22. Rf4

Smiley

ps: How can you people be surprised that these lines aren't covered in books? it takes longer to print a book than it takes for a novelty to be discovered (and ofcourse they aren't anywhere else, that's why we call them novelties)
And in human play the above move (18. Rg3!! ) is a novelty in computer chess it's just yesterday's news Smiley



Looks like 14...Be7 is better.  I'm not finding any advantage for white.  Check it out.

I did and I dont see it. 15.Bxe7 Qxe7 16.Bxd5 and I really don't like black. Material is equal, but he is as developed as a 3rd world country, that has been hit by an eruption, earthquake, tsunami and a civil war.


After 16. ... Qxe5+ 17. Qe2 Nd7 Black has a pawn and a forced exchange of the queens to compensate for his misery.

White at best has a slight advantage.

  
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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #19 - 08/30/08 at 12:02:09
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14...Be7 or 14...Qc5 are better tries. Also after 16 Rb3 Qa4! must be better even if it still looks dangerous for black.
  
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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #18 - 08/29/08 at 09:30:02
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Boomie wrote on 08/26/08 at 20:52:01:
TGO wrote on 08/21/08 at 22:03:07:
Noomen is wrong. (or better to say his book is too old, and yes I know it came out a few week ago, but this is how long it takes for novelties in sicilians)

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bg5 e6 7. f4 Qb6 8. Qd2 Qxb2 9 Rb1 Qa3 10. e5!! h6 11. Bh4 dxe5 12. fxe5 Nd5 13. Nxd5 exd5 14. Bc4! Bc5 15. Bxd5 0-0 16. Rb3! Qxa2 17. 0-0 Nc6 18. Rg3!! (black is lost) Nxd4 19. Kh1 Qxc2 20. Qxc2 Nxc2 21. Bf6 g5 22. Rf4

Smiley

ps: How can you people be surprised that these lines aren't covered in books? it takes longer to print a book than it takes for a novelty to be discovered (and ofcourse they aren't anywhere else, that's why we call them novelties)
And in human play the above move (18. Rg3!! ) is a novelty in computer chess it's just yesterday's news Smiley



Looks like 14...Be7 is better.  I'm not finding any advantage for white.  Check it out.

I did and I dont see it. 15.Bxe7 Qxe7 16.Bxd5 and I really don't like black. Material is equal, but he is as developed as a 3rd world country, that has been hit by an eruption, earthquake, tsunami and a civil war.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #17 - 08/29/08 at 08:07:19
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Who likes Black's position ? after :
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Bg5 e6 7.f4 Qb6 8.Qd2 Qxb2 9.Rb1 Qa3 10.e5! h6 11.Bh4 dxe5 12.fxe5 Nd5 N
13.Nxd5 exd5 14.e6! Bxe6 15.Nxe6 fxe6 16.Bd3 or 17.Rxb7
  
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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #16 - 08/28/08 at 11:06:26
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My point was that theory moves on, either by human ideas or computer moves. And sometimes human answers to computer moves. 

I agree that Kasparov is probably the world’s strongest player ever (he or Fischer) , but even his recommendations can run out of date because of new ideas in a sharp position.

About Rybka3 book, it bought as soon as it get out but was little disappointed by it.
  
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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #15 - 08/27/08 at 14:31:33
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Quote:
As a consequence of TGO's post I decided to examine Rybka3 Openings Book [.ctg file]  more closely, and I gotta tell ya I wasn't very impressed.


I read Noomen claimed the variation 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 4.e4 dxe4 5.Nxe4 Bb4+ 6.Ld2 to be dangerous for black, which I considered harmless if black is prepared. So I wondered if the Rybka 3 book really have something to offer for me in this line or if it is not worth having a look at it.
  
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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #14 - 08/27/08 at 14:25:33
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Quote:
but if everything Kasparov has ever played or recommended is correct does this mean that even the Dragon is correct?


I never claimed Kasparovs analysis being 100% perfect, only much better then these rather engine dominated analysis coming from these engine matches.
Quote:
... has ever played or recommended ...
And my statement was related to the Kasparov now , not the "1980-Kasparov", e.g. Of course engines helped him to improve his analysis.
And what do you mean with correct ... Not losing by force or black achieves equality in all lines (after a certain maximal move number) or .... ?
Your statement does not make really sense.
  
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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #13 - 08/27/08 at 02:17:48
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TGO wrote on 08/21/08 at 22:03:07:
Noomen is wrong. (or better to say his book is too old, and yes I know it came out a few week ago, but this is how long it takes for novelties in sicilians)

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bg5 e6 7. f4 Qb6 8. Qd2 Qxb2 9 Rb1 Qa3 10. e5!! h6 11. Bh4 dxe5 12. fxe5 Nd5 13. Nxd5 exd5 14. Bc4! Bc5 15. Bxd5 0-0 16. Rb3! Qxa2 17. 0-0 Nc6 18. Rg3!! (black is lost) Nxd4 19. Kh1 Qxc2 20. Qxc2 Nxc2 21. Bf6 g5 22. Rf4

Smiley

ps: How can you people be surprised that these lines aren't covered in books? it takes longer to print a book than it takes for a novelty to be discovered (and ofcourse they aren't anywhere else, that's why we call them novelties)
And in human play the above move (18. Rg3!! ) is a novelty in computer chess it's just yesterday's news Smiley


The quoted post really intrigued me, and for those not in the know, Noomen is the author of the highly touted Rybka3 Opening Book.

As a consequence of TGO's post I decided to examine Rybka3 Openings Book [.ctg file]  more closely, and I gotta tell ya I wasn't very impressed. Seems to me the much vaunted Rybka3 Openings Book is totally over-rated.

Toppy Smiley 
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #12 - 08/26/08 at 23:44:41
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Boomie wrote on 08/26/08 at 20:52:01:
TGO wrote on 08/21/08 at 22:03:07:
Noomen is wrong. (or better to say his book is too old, and yes I know it came out a few week ago, but this is how long it takes for novelties in sicilians)

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bg5 e6 7. f4 Qb6 8. Qd2 Qxb2 9 Rb1 Qa3 10. e5!! h6 11. Bh4 dxe5 12. fxe5 Nd5 13. Nxd5 exd5 14. Bc4! Bc5 15. Bxd5 0-0 16. Rb3! Qxa2 17. 0-0 Nc6 18. Rg3!! (black is lost) Nxd4 19. Kh1 Qxc2 20. Qxc2 Nxc2 21. Bf6 g5 22. Rf4

Smiley

ps: How can you people be surprised that these lines aren't covered in books? it takes longer to print a book than it takes for a novelty to be discovered (and ofcourse they aren't anywhere else, that's why we call them novelties)
And in human play the above move (18. Rg3!! ) is a novelty in computer chess it's just yesterday's news Smiley


Looks like 14...Be7 is better.  I'm not finding any advantage for white.  Check it out.

So it appears that white's best try is 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Bg5 e6 7.f4 Qb6 8.Qd2 Qxb2 9.Rb1 Qa3 10.e5!? h6 11.Bh4 dxe5 12.fxe5 Nd5! *13 Nxd5 exd5 14 e6! Bxe6

However this seems to peter out to a draw without either side having any winning chances.  Perhaps lines like these are why super GMs don't play the PP anymore.
  
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