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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all (Read 31841 times)
vallescure
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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #41 - 01/16/14 at 11:25:25
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I have some experience of PP with White , and I think that 12...g5 leads to a forced draw
But the questionable move is probably 8 Qd2
Recently , I turned to 8 a3  , that prevents 8...Qxb2 , and reverts to a "normal" Najdorf where the Black Queen is not ideally placed in b6
Some experiences about it ?
  
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Bromstein
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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #40 - 06/16/09 at 17:24:01
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I select a path to my pgn-file, but nothing happens.
Can someone help?
  

12sd5.pgn ( 7 KB | Downloads )
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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #39 - 06/16/09 at 17:11:04
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Here the pgn file
  
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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #38 - 06/15/09 at 19:49:59
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14...Le7 looks like an not complicated equalizer.

[Event "12...Sd5!"]
[
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bg5 e6 7. f4 Qb6 8. Qd2
Qxb2 9. Rb1 h6 {0.00/0 0 '!?' Richard Palliser.} 11.
Bh4 {0.00/0 0} dxe5 {0.00/0 0} 12. fxe5 {0.00/0 0} Nd5 $5 {0.00/0 0  13. Nxd5 {
0.00/0 0} exd5 {0.00/0 0} 14. e6 (14. Bc4 Be7 $1 (14... Qc5 15. Bb3 Nc6 16. Bf2
Nxd4 17. Bxd4 Qc6 18. O-O Bc5 $11) 15. Bxe7 Qxe7 16. Bxd5 Qxe5+ 17. Qe2 (17.
Ne2 O-O 18. O-O Nc6 $11 19. Nf4 Ne7 20. Bxb7 (20. Rbe1 Qg5 21. Bb3 Ng6 22. Bd5
Rb8 23. Rf2 Nxf4 24. Rxf4 Be6 25. Bxe6 fxe6 26. Rxf8+ Rxf8 27. Qxg5 (27. Qd7
Qc5+ 28. Kh1 Qd5 $15) 27... hxg5 28. Rxe6 Rc8 29. Re2 b5 30. Kf1 Rc3 $15 31.
Ke1 Ra3 32. Re5 Rxa2 33. Kd2 g4 34. Re4 g3 (34... Ra4 35. Rxa4 bxa4 36. Kc3 Kf7
37. Kb4 Ke6 38. Kxa4 Kd5 39. Ka5 Kd4 40. Kxa6 Kc3 41. Kb7 Kxc2 42. Kc6 Kd2 43.
Kd7 Ke2 44. Ke6 Kf2 45. Kf5 Kxg2 46. Kxg4 Kxh2 47. Kg5) 35. hxg3 Kf7 $15) 20...
Rb8 21. Bxc8 Rxb1 22. Rxb1 Rxc8 $11) 17... Qxe2+ 18. Kxe2 Ra7 19. Rhe1 O-O 20.
Kf2 Rd8 21. c4 Kf8 $11 22. Rb6 Nd7 23. Rd6 Re8 24. Rb1 Nc5 $11) (14. Bd3) (14.
Be2 Be7 15. Bxe7 Qxe7 16. O-O O-O 17. c4 Nc6 18. Nxc6 bxc6 19. cxd5 cxd5 20.
Qxd5 Be6 21. Qd6 Qg5 22. Bf3 (22. Bxa6 Rfd8 23. Qb6 Rd2 24. Bb7 Raxa2 25. Qc6
Qxe5 $17) 22... Rac8 (22... Rfd8 23. Bxa8 Rxd6 24. exd6 Qc5+ 25. Kh1 Qxd6 $11)
23. Rf2 (23. Qxa6 Bc4 $17) 23... a5 $15) 14... Bxe6 {0.00/0 0} (14... Qxa2) 15.
Rxb7 {0.00/0 0} (15. Nxe6 fxe6 16. Bd3 Be7 17. Bxe7 (17. Bg6+ Kd8 18. Bxe7+
Qxe7 19. O-O Nd7 (19... b5 20. c4 Qc5+ {1/2-1/2 Caissalou-Etaoin Shrdlu (2501)/
playchess.com INT 2008/Mega2009 Update 06}) 20. Rxb7 (20. Rf7 Qc5+ 21. Kh1 (21.
Qf2 Qxf2+ 22. Kxf2 Rf8 23. Rxf8+ Nxf8 24. Bd3 b5 25. a4 bxa4 26. Ra1 Nd7 27.
Rxa4 a5 $17) 21... Rc8 22. Rxg7 Rc7 23. Qf4 (23. Bd3 Qd4 24. Rf7 (24. Rg3 e5
$15) 24... Nc5 (24... Ne5 25. Rxc7 Kxc7 26. Rxb7+ Kd6 $11) 25. Rf4 Qg7 26. Rbf1
Kc8 27. Rf6 (27. Be2 Ne4 28. Qe3 Kb8 29. Bf3 Qc3 30. Qe2 Ng5 $17) 27... Kb8 $15
) 23... Kc8 24. h3 Qa3 25. Bd3 Qa5 26. c4 Nc5 27. Rxc7+ Qxc7 28. Qd4 Rd8 $15)
20... Qc5+ 21. Kh1 Rf8 22. Rxf8+ Nxf8 23. Rxg7 Rb8 24. Qc1 (24. h3 Rb1+ 25. Kh2
Qd6+ 26. g3 Qc5 27. Qg2 Nxg6 28. Rxg6 Kd7 29. Rf6 (29. Rxh6 Rb2 $19) 29... Rb2
30. Rf2 Rxa2 $17) 24... Qb5 25. h3 Qb1 26. Qg1 Qxg1+ 27. Kxg1 Rb2 28. a4 Nxg6
29. Rxg6 Ke7 30. c3 Ra2) 17... Qxe7 18. O-O Nd7 (18... b5 19. Kh1 Rf8 20. Qc3
Kd8 21. Qa5+ Kc8 22. Rxf8+ Qxf8 23. Qb6 Qd8 24. Qxe6+ Qd7 25. Qg6 Qe7 26. Rf1
Ra7 27. Qb6 Rb7 28. Bf5+ Nd7 29. Qxa6 Kb8 30. Bxd7 Qxd7 31. Rf8+ Kc7 32. Qa5+
Kc6 33. Rd8 Qg4 34. Qa6+ Kc5 35. Qd6+ Kc4 36. Qxd5+ {1-0 Vydeslaver,A (2399)
-Raznikov,D (2251)/Haifa 2008/Mega2009 Update 01}) 19. Rxb7 (19. Bg6+ Kd8 20.
Rxb7 Qc5+ 21. Kh1 Rf8 22. Rxf8+ Nxf8 23. Rxg7 Rb8 $11 {ZU zu 17.Lg6+}) 19...
Qc5+ 20. Kh1 Rf8 21. Rxf8+ Qxf8 22. c4 d4 23. Bg6+ Kd8 24. Qxd4 Qf1+ 25. Qg1
Qxg1+ 26. Kxg1 Rc8 27. Ra7 Rxc4 28. Rxa6 Ke7 29. Ra7 Kf6 30. Rxd7 Kxg6 $11)
15... Nd7 {0.00/0 0} 16. Nxe6 {0.00/0 0} (16. Bb5 axb5 17. Nxb5 Be7 18. Nxa3
Bxh4+ 19. g3 Bg5 20. Qb4 Be7 21. Qb5 Bxa3 22. O-O Rd8 23. Re1 h5 24. Qc6 Bc5+
$11 25. Kg2 Be7 26. Rxe6 fxe6 27. Qxe6 h4 28. a4 Rh6 29. Qg8+ Bf8 30. Qxd5 h3+
31. Kg1 Bc5+ 32. Kh1 Be7 33. a5 Nf8 34. Qb5+ Kf7 35. Qc4+ Re6 36. Rb1 Rdd6 37.
Re1 Bd8 38. Qf1+ Rf6 39. Qxh3 g6 40. Rf1 Bxa5 41. Rxf6+ Rxf6 42. Qg2 Ne6 43.
Qb7+ Bc7 44. Kg2 Rf5 45. h4 Re5 46. Qf3+ Kg7 47. c4 Nd4 48. Qb7 Re2+ 49. Kh3
Re7 50. Qb2 Be5 51. Qa3 Rc7 52. Qa8 Bf6 53. c5 Re7 54. Qa3 Re2 55. Qa7+ Re7 56.
Qa5 Re3 57. Qc7+ Kg8 58. Qb6 {Williamson, Harvey: '1/2-1/2 Thamover, R (2737)
-Zombik, R (2772)/playchess.com'} Kg7 59. Qc7+ Kg8 60. Qb6 {1/2-1/2 Thamover,
R (2737)-Zombik, R (2772)/playchess.com}) 16... fxe6 {0.00/0 0} 17. Bd3 {0.00/
0 0} g5 {0.00/0 0} 18. Bg3 {0.00/0 0} Bd6 {0.00/0 0} 19. Bxd6 {0} Qxd6 {0.00/0
0} 20. O-O {0.00/0 0} Rf8 {0.00/0 0} 21. Rxf8+ {0.00/0 0} Kxf8 {0.00/0 0} 22.
h4 {0.00/0 0} Qc6 {0.00/0 0} 23. Rb1 {0.00/0 0} Qc5+ {0.00/0 0} 24. Kh1 {0.00/
0 0} d4 {0.00/0 0} 25. Qe2 {0.00/0 0} Ke7 {0.00/0 0  26. Qe4 {-0.01/0 3} Rf8 {-0.33/0 8}
27. Qh7+ {-0.12/0 0} Kd6 {-0.14/0 2} 28. Rb7 {-0.20/0 0} Qc8 {-0.25/0 5} 29.
Ra7 {-0.16/0 0} Nc5 {-0.27/0 20} 30. hxg5 {-0.17/0 0} hxg5 {-0.19/0 6} 31. Qg7
{-0.10/0 21} Kd5 {-0.19/0 0 (Kc6)} 32. Rc7 {-0.10/0 23 (Be2)} Qd8 {-0.32/0 3}
33. Bxa6 {-0.27/0 1} Qd6 {-0.37/0 1} 34. Bb5 {-0.15/0 4 (Be2)} Qf4 {-0.51/0 3 
(g4)} (34... g4 35. g3 Qxg3 36. Rxc5+ Kxc5 37. Qxf8+ Kxb5 $11) 35. Be2 {0.00/0
2 (Bc6+)} Qh4+ {-0.08/0 3} 36. Kg1 {0.00/0 0} Qf2+ {-0.15/0 6} 37. Kh2 {0.00/0
0} Rf5 {-0.15/0 5} 38. Qe7 {0.00/0 0} Qh4+ {-0.07/0 4} 39. Kg1 {0.00/0 0} Ne4 {
0.00/0 3} 40. Ra7 {0.00/0 1} Qf2+ {-0.05/0 3 (Qe1+)} 41. Kh1 {0.00/0 2 (Kh2)}
Nc5 {0.00/0 3 (Qh4+)} 42. Rc7 {0.00/0 3} Qh4+ {0.00/0 0 (Qe1+)} 43. Kg1 {0.00/
0 0} Ne4 {0.00/0 1 (Qh5)} 44. Ra7 {0.00/0 2} Qf2+ {0.00/0 1} 45. Kh1 {0.00/0 0
(Kh2)} Ng3+ {0.00/0 2 (Qxe2)} 46. Kh2 {0.00/0 0} Qxe2 {0.00/0 3 1/2-1/2 ABT
tuning,R (2696)-Mscpoker,R (2520)/[Williamson, Harvey]} *

  
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sanek9385
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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #37 - 04/29/09 at 11:11:59
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TGO wrote on 08/21/08 at 22:03:07:


1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bg5 e6 7. f4 Qb6 8. Qd2 Qxb2 9 Rb1 Qa3 10. e5!! h6 11. Bh4 dxe5 12. fxe5 Nd5 13. Nxd5 exd5 14. Bc4! Bc5 15. Bxd5 0-0 16. Rb3! Qxa2 17. 0-0 Nc6 18. Rg3!! (black is lost) Nxd4 19. Kh1 Qxc2 20. Qxc2 Nxc2 21. Bf6 g5 22. Rf4



Why only the variant here is considered1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bg5 e6 7. f4 Qb6 8. Qd2 Qxb2 9 Rb1 Qa3 10. e5!! h6 11. Bh4 dxe5 12. fxe5 Nd5 13. Nxd5 exd5 14. Bc4! Bc5?

The course a queen is better! 14...Qc5!= and chances of the parties are equal!
  
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sanek9385
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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #36 - 04/29/09 at 07:57:51
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B97: Sicilian Najdorf: Poisoned Pawn 
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Bg5 e6 7.f4 Qb6 8.Qd2 Qxb2 9.Rb1 Qa3 10.e5 h6 11.Bh4 dxe5 12.fxe5 Nfd7 13.Ne4 Qxa2 14.Rd1 Qd5 15.Qe3 Qxe5 16.Be2 Bc5 17.Bg3 Bxd4 18.Rxd4 Qa5+ 19.Rd2 0–0 20.Bd6 Re8 21.0–0 f5 22.Qg3 fxe4 23.Qg6 Rd8 24.Rf7 Qc3 25.Bb4 Qe5 26.Bg4 Re8 27.Rxg7+ Qxg7 28.Qxe8+ Kh7 29.Qxe6 Nf8 30.Qxc8 Ng6 31.Bf5 Qa1+ 32.Kf2 e3+ 33.Kxe3 Qe5+ 34.Kf2 1–0

Help with the game analysis. Where there was an error at black? There are experts on this variant for the black?
  
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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #35 - 01/24/09 at 20:38:34
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And here I attach my own game finished a couple of days ago Smiley.
  

Petrov-Grobler.pgn ( 0 KB | Downloads )
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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #34 - 01/23/09 at 23:38:34
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Attached is a correspondence game completed today. In the final position neither side has any realistic winning chances.
  

Paredes.pgn ( 0 KB | Downloads )

I am hopelessly addicted to the King's Gambit
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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #33 - 11/02/08 at 18:51:04
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TopNotch wrote on 08/27/08 at 02:17:48:
TGO wrote on 08/21/08 at 22:03:07:
Noomen is wrong. (or better to say his book is too old, and yes I know it came out a few week ago, but this is how long it takes for novelties in sicilians)

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bg5 e6 7. f4 Qb6 8. Qd2 Qxb2 9 Rb1 Qa3 10. e5!! h6 11. Bh4 dxe5 12. fxe5 Nd5 13. Nxd5 exd5 14. Bc4! Bc5 15. Bxd5 0-0 16. Rb3! Qxa2 17. 0-0 Nc6 18. Rg3!! (black is lost) Nxd4 19. Kh1 Qxc2 20. Qxc2 Nxc2 21. Bf6 g5 22. Rf4

Smiley

ps: How can you people be surprised that these lines aren't covered in books? it takes longer to print a book than it takes for a novelty to be discovered (and ofcourse they aren't anywhere else, that's why we call them novelties)
And in human play the above move (18. Rg3!! ) is a novelty in computer chess it's just yesterday's news Smiley


The quoted post really intrigued me, and for those not in the know, Noomen is the author of the highly touted Rybka3 Opening Book.

As a consequence of TGO's post I decided to examine Rybka3 Openings Book [.ctg file]  more closely, and I gotta tell ya I wasn't very impressed. Seems to me the much vaunted Rybka3 Openings Book is totally over-rated.

Toppy Smiley 


Simply posting a message that a book is overrated without even attempting to provide anything of substance is a very poor "contribution". It' is the type of contribution that should actually be removed by moderators if you ask me.
  
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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #32 - 09/26/08 at 12:08:08
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Is one section not enough for you Dragoneers?
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #31 - 09/26/08 at 09:55:06
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1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6
5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. O-O-O Rc8 11. Bb3 Ne5
12. h4 h5 13. Bg5 Rc5 14. g4 hxg4 15. f4 Nc4 16. Qe2 Qc8 17. Bxf6 {
I think that the discussion took place in this line} Bxf6 18. h5 (18. Nd5 {
is Rybkas 3 books refutation} b5 (18... Rxd5 {
has been played by Topalov agianst Ivanchuk}) 19. h5 g5 20. f5 Rxd5 21. exd5
Bxf5 22. c3 Ne5 23. Rhf1 Bh7 24. Nxb5 Nf3 25. Nxa7 Qc5 26. Nc6 Bxc3 27. Bc2 Bf6
28. Kb1 Bxc2+ 29. Qxc2 Qxc2+ 30. Kxc2 Ra8 31. Kb3 Kg7) 18... Nxb2 {
only move considered by Dearing} (18... g5 19. Bxc4 Rxc4 (19... gxf4 {
Rybka 3 suggestion} 20. Bb5 Be6 21. Nxe6 Qxe6 22. Nd5 f3 23. Qd3 Be5 24. Rdf1 {
Rybka favors white but I call it unclear}) 20. e5) (18... g3 {Rybkas main move}
19. Qd3 g2 (19... e5 20. hxg6 exd4 21. Nd5 fxg6 22. Qxg3) (19... Bg4 20. Rdg1
Bxd4 21. Qxd4 Bf3 22. Nd5 Rxd5 23. exd5 Bxh1 24. Rxh1) 20. Rhg1 Bg4 21. hxg6
Bxd1 22. Nxd1 Bxd4 23. Qxd4 e5 24. fxe5 dxe5 25. Qf2) 19. Kxb2 {
Dearing writes that this move has never been played} Rxc3 20. e5 Bg7 21. h6 Bh8
22. h7+ Kg7 23. f5 Bxf5 (23... Rh3 24. Qxg4) (23... Rxb3+ 24. cxb3 dxe5 25.
Qxe5+) (23... Bc6 24. Qxg4) (23... Rg3 24. f6+ exf6 25. exf6+ Kxf6 26. Qf2+ Rf3
27. Qh4+) 24. Nxf5+ gxf5 (24... Qxf5 25. Kxc3 Rc8+ 26. Kb2 Qxe5+ 27. Qxe5+ dxe5
28. Rd7) 25. Qd2 *

  
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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #30 - 09/26/08 at 07:29:18
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Well, to prove this you have tu refute : 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 
4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 O-O 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.Bc4 Bd7 
10.h4 h5 11.O-O-O Rc8 12.Bb3 Ne5 13.Bg5 Rc5 14.g4 hxg4 15.f4 Nc4 16.Qe2 (A/Na5) Qc8 17.h5 Nxh5 18.f5 B/Nxb2 C/Na5. Good work !
  
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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #29 - 09/25/08 at 18:31:22
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1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3
g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 Nc6 8. Qd2 O-O 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. O-O-O Rc8 11. Bb3 Ne5 12. h4 h5 13. Bg5 Rc5 14. g4 hxg4 15. f4 Nc4 16. Qe2 Qc8 17. h5!? Nxh5 18. f5!?   ...and the dragon seems busted;)

  

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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #28 - 09/25/08 at 16:47:31
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Rybka 3 opening is totally overrated. I think that the version that came with Rybka 2 is better in many ways, it did cover many lines better, especially  in my favorit defences (Dragon and Dutch defences).

Rybka 3 opening books only advatange over Rybka 2 book are that there are several new ideas in for example the Dragon. But many old lines are unmentioned. When I played a practise game agianst computer, Fritz open variation randomizer (Fritz plays different variation every time) seleted a important line in Dragon that the opening book had no cover at all That line goes 

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6
5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. h4 h5 11. O-O-O Rc8
12. Bb3 Ne5 13. Bg5 Rc5 14. g4 hxg4 15. f4 Nc4 16. Qe2

White performance is high after both Qc8 (main line in Play the Sicilian Dragon that I have a vauge memory of that we analsyed at Dragon forum some years ago coming to the conclusion that white was better after a novelty) and b5. But the book did not have the move that I always played , Ivanchuks Na5 and after 17. e5 Nxb3+ 18. Nxb3 Rxc3 19. bxc3 Bc6 whites postion stinks but Ryba 3 managed to draw!

And today when I analysed a game I played at the interent (Staunton gambit) the book had not Nc6 at all, only the dubios move pawn c6....

1. d4 f5 2. e4 fxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 Nc6
(4... c6 {only move mentioned}) *

  
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Re: Poisoned Pawn: 10.e5 not dangerous after all
Reply #27 - 09/02/08 at 22:17:56
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Well, he has taken off his posts now, apparently in a fit of pique.  But I've looked and 14...Bxe6 does look like the best move.  Also 15.Rxb7 doesn't look like such a bad reply.  I don't know why I am working on this, since I don't play 1.e4.  Someone else can analyze it.  If I think of anything definite, I'll come back.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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