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Normal Topic King's Gambit declined/Schliemann hybrid (Read 4249 times)
ArKheiN
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Re: King's Gambit declined/Schliemann hybrid
Reply #8 - 09/08/08 at 21:15:56
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In fact there existe none way for White to force a "true" King's gambit declined. Sure, if you play against 1.e4 e5 2.f4 Bc5 you got what you may want but I feel the Vienna/bishop opening spirit is to not allow the complications of the king's gambit accepted.

After 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Bc5 4.Nc3 c6 White should change his plan with 5.Nf3 or 5.Bb3 but more common is 4..d6 or 4..Nc6 where 5.f4 is ok now. About 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.f4 it seems that 4..0-0 is quite strong too, for example 5.fxe5 Nxe4 or 5.d3 exf4(!) 6.Bxf4 c6.

But as you pointed out, the lines with Nc6-a5 in the Vienna/Bishop are not very fun for White, the Vienna player knows that the game may be "quickly objectively equal" but in many lines, the fight is quite fun. The lines with 3..Nc6 and 4..Bb4 is not a problem for me but 3..Bb4 is not that easy to met, many correct moves for White here but each I feel that each have his own drawback.

  
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MNb
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Re: King's Gambit declined/Schliemann hybrid
Reply #7 - 09/08/08 at 20:37:09
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Ha, you are a lucky guy. This month being my holiday I could not resist browsing through my old notes and amazingly they were not in disarray at all.
Both 6...a6 and 6...0-0 can be met with 7.f5. The idea is Qe2, Bd2 (Be3) and g2-g4, preferably as a (pseudo)sac. I already can hear the defenders of the black side shouting: Black will organize counterplay with ...Na5 and ...b5, initiating his own pawnstorm! The resulting positions are way too complicated to claim an edge! They might be right, it will be a tough fight. Still I feel confident that these complications are favourable to White.

1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.f4 is imprecise according to Harding (1973 and it's still very good) because of Bxg1 5.Rxg1 d5.
I also agree on 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Bc5 4.Nc3 c6!
Alas it looks like there is no good way to reach the KGD via the Vienna or Bishop's Opening. There is also the annoying 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Nc6 4.Nc3 Na5!
  

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ArKheiN
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Re: King's Gambit declined/Schliemann hybrid
Reply #6 - 09/08/08 at 13:31:30
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I will use this thread to speak about the best way to reach the King's gambit declined via the Vienna:

The first line, seems to be the most popular but I don't understand why.

First line: 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 with the idea 5.f4 but that doesn't work well after 4..c6! so White should play 5.Bb3 or 5.Nf3 here with a reversed Giuco Piano.

Second line, I wonder if there is any drawback for White:

1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.f4. Is there a best way for Black to play against that move order than getting a normal King's gambit declined?
  
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ArKheiN
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Re: King's Gambit declined/Schliemann hybrid
Reply #5 - 09/08/08 at 03:57:45
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I am looking to buy the "Fascinating King's gambit" because I only heard good things about it. Does he gives the king's gambit declined as +/= or something like this? I searched "big" discussions about the declined on the forum but I didn't find.
  
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MNb
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Re: King's Gambit declined/Schliemann hybrid
Reply #4 - 09/08/08 at 01:33:36
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I have no idea why the link doesn't work - it doesn't for me either - so I removed it. I hope this is better:

http://www.chessopolis.com/openings.htm
Scroll down a bit and click Keith's Krap
Click From's Gambit Declined: Hayward Variation.

Thanks for the compliment, but I don't think I am the "best" specialist. TalJechin and Dragonslayer also know a lot, they just aren't as active. And don't forget Micawber, a modest Dutchman (yes, they exist).
My opinion on the KDG 2...Bc5 is mainly based on Johansson's excellent the Fascinating King's Gambit. At the moment I cannot really give you a good answer as I have quit 1.e4.
GM Kosten has promised an update including the analysis on this site (which I cannot refind). Is it already there?
  

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ArKheiN
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Re: King's Gambit declined/Schliemann hybrid
Reply #3 - 09/07/08 at 21:53:43
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Indeed I didn't know that transposition with 1.Nc3 (and after 3..exf3 it looks like a sort of BDG) and I'm sure there is other ways to reach that position.

The link you gave doesn't work. A way for White to get a small advantage in the king's gambit declined? I am studying it from both side and I would like to know how. I believe you are one of the best "specialist" of this subject on the forum, it's why I am curious to know what plan you prefer against 1.e4 e5 2.f4 Bc5 3.Nf3 d6 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.Bc4 Nc6 6.d3 a6 and 6..0-0. Against 6..0-0 it seems that 7.f5 and 7.Na5 are both very popular but I don't know which one is considered as best now.
  
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MNb
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Re: King's Gambit declined/Schliemann hybrid
Reply #2 - 09/07/08 at 20:43:42
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In the KG version I maintain that White can prove an edge with 5.Bc4 iso 5.fxe5, which is about equal. For this reason I never feared 6.Bc4 when I still played the Jänisch-Schliemann as Black. So in my opinion the KGD is better for White than the JSG for Black. Moreover I second Markovich 4.Nc3 being superior to 4.d3 against the JSG, all the recent GM-games notwithstanding.

Now we are busy with transpositions, here is another one:

1.Nc3 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.f3 e5 4.fxe4 Nf6 5.Nf3 Bc5.
I bet you never thought of this one, have you?
With a friend of mine I played a friendly corr chess game several years ago. I had Black in this very line (after 1.Nc3) and after some weird complications (I played ...Ng4) indeed a draw was the result. Alas, I have lost the score, never thought it might become important once.
« Last Edit: 09/08/08 at 01:30:21 by MNb »  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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ArKheiN
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Re: King's Gambit declined/Schliemann hybrid
Reply #1 - 09/07/08 at 20:11:27
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Astonishing, even Harry Potter could not win that line with White:

[Event "USA corr"]
[Site "USA"]
[Date "1988.??.??"]
[Round "0"]
[White "Potter,Harry"]
[Black "Sawyer,Timothy E"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "C44"]
1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 Nc6 3.Nf3 f6 4.e4 fxe5 5.Nc3 Nf6 6.Bc4 Bc5 7.0-0 Rf8 8.Bg5 h6
9.Bh4 d6 10.Nd5 Bg4 11.Nxf6+ gxf6 12.h3 Bh5 13.Qd2 Bxf3 14.gxf3 Qd7 15.Qxh6 Qxh3 16.Qg6+ Kd7
17.Bxf6 Nd4 18.Qg7+ Kc6 0-1

  
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ArKheiN
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King's Gambit declined/Schliemann hybrid
09/07/08 at 18:34:30
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There is an interesting transposition from the Schliemann into a King's Gambit declined (or from the From Gambit Declined). I noticed that some month ago but today I look at it again with interest.

Here is the line beginning from the White side:

1.e4 e5 2.f4 Bc5 3.Nf3 d6 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.fxe5!? dxe5
(or 1.f4 e5 2.fe5 d6 3.e4 de5 4.Nf3 Bc5 5.Nc3)

From the Black side:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 Nf6 6.Bc4!?

Where we reach exactly the same position but only the color change.

What is interesting from the King's Gambit version: It's White who does the first marginal move: 5.fxe5 (only 17 games at this point according to chesslive!). So we could imagine that the position is now good for Black, at least equal. Thomas Johansson (in his website) did an article about that marginal line for White where there is a dangerous try for Black after 5..dxe5 6.Bc4 Nc6 7.d3 Ng4!? which is probably still unclear.

Now let's see the same position via the Schliemann: White's only "marginal  move" is 6.Bc4 where we can say the same comment: "White is still at least equal or even better, where there is still an interesting attack with Ng5", but it has been only played about 4 times according to chesslive.

So what, Black is ready to play in thousand of King's gambit against a marginal move as 5.fxe5 but when they get White, they don't want to force that possible position with 6.Bc4? Why? That's probably for a psychological reason, as Bb5-Bc4 seems to be a waste of tempo, but when I see the other try from White side (Anand-Carlsen or 2700's-Radjabov) that's not necessary promising. So I imagine that people are not really aware of 6.Bc4 being a transpotition into a King's gambit, or they think it's equal, and that's ok with Black but not with White.  That's remind me of 2 articles in chesscafe: "switching color" http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss30.pdf

Another amazing curiosity, when I did my position research after the Schliemann's line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 Nf6 6.Bc4, I noticed that it was still White who has to play here, so there are about 40 games where Black's player reached that position a tempo down! Usually like this: 1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 Nc6 3.Nf3 f6?! 4.e4 fxe5 5.Bc4 Nf6 where we get the position and White has 6.Ng4 where after 6..Bc5 7.Nxf7, the game is like a Traxler counter-gambit Without the white's d-pawn!

A final conclusion might be for the King's Gambit player: watch all these Schliemann's player who is ready to play your position (even some crazy guys like Stummer wanted to play that a tempo down) after the marginal 5.fxe5!? when you still play like in the books.
  
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