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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) e3 Before ...e6 in the Colle Zukertore or not (Read 8448 times)
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Re: e3 Before ...e6 in the Colle Zukertore or not
Reply #15 - 06/23/19 at 00:59:49
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Am I late to the thread? Heh! Great info here!

"How to beat d4" contains a specific chapter on the London and plays 3. ...c5 after the standard d4 d5 Nf3 Nf6 Bf4. I have the electronic version of it so I'm not sure how many pages it is, probably 10-15 of a tree structure with dry variations. This is a Black repertoire book built around the QGA by the way. Useful book if you are an autistic savant who can absorb reams and reams of variations, I guess.
  
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Re: e3 Before ...e6 in the Colle Zukertore or not
Reply #14 - 09/26/08 at 02:46:22
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After looking at Sverre Johnsen's Blog I've been educated about other sources for the London System.

There is a complete book dedicated to the London called Das London System (by Schmucker).

Apparently, there are sections on the London System in a number of books:

How to Beat 1.d4 (James Rizzitano)
The Chess Advantage in Black and White (Larry Kaufman)
How to Succeed in Queen Pawn Openings (Watson and Schiller)
Secrets of Opening Surprizes 5
New in Chess Yearbook 83

Maybe some players can inform us about the number of pages devoted to the London in this lot of five and give us a "bare bones" description of the lines covered.

  
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Re: e3 Before ...e6 in the Colle Zukertore or not
Reply #13 - 09/26/08 at 00:39:25
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As GM Prié disagrees I am curious what he will offer against 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4 b6 4.e3 Bb7 5.Bd3 Ne4
. The fifth move suggestion comes from MNb.

Looking more closely at the games in the August update I could not see any reference to MNb's suggestion for Black, 5...Ne4. To me, it seems like a very reasonable suggestion. Maybe it will appear in September's update.

I appologize to MNb for cutting him short on this.  Sad
  
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Re: e3 Before ...e6 in the Colle Zukertore or not
Reply #12 - 09/25/08 at 15:58:15
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I've overlooked a couple of books that are not devoted exclusively to the London System but give it attention.   Embarrassed

IM John Cox has about twenty pages devoted to the London System in his monograph titled Dealing With the d4 Deviations (Ch 5, p.59-78). The total page count for this monograph is 144. The lines he discusses are:

1.d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 e6 3.Bf4 c5
1.d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 e6 3.Bf4 d5
1.d4 d5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3.Bf4 c5

Also, GM Joe Gallagher wrote nine pages to analyze two London System games (Zach vs. Bangiev and Yusupov vs. Tukmakov) in his monograph called Beating the Anti-King's Indians. (191 pages)

This, hopefully, gets very, very near to the end of the London System resources list.
  
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Re: e3 Before ...e6 in the Colle Zukertore or not
Reply #11 - 09/25/08 at 00:46:11
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I've found one more author, T.D. Harding, who condemns  e3 before ...e6. Specifically, in his monograph Colle, London, and Blackmar-Diemer Systems, 1979.

The warnings about the premature e3 seem to have been around a very long time! On p.16 of that book in the line 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.e3 g6 Harding states the Colle [structure] is not very good against the King's Indian setup.

Harding also discusses 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c5 on p.77 of this book giving a few pages of analysis on the moves 3.c4 (Harding attributes this move to Akiba Rubinstein) and 3.dc (T.D. Harding, like GM Prie, describes this move as a reversed QGA).

The Rubinstein move, though very interesting, may not see the light of day in d-Pawn Specials because of its "border crossing" issues. Maybe GM Prie will make an exception here, who knows? T. D. Harding makes the point that Rubinstein produced fines wins over GM F. Marshall and GM J. Capablanca with this move 3.c4.

Scanning the Internet for other references to the London I see that I've missed the London System DVD by IM Andrew Martin. It's called London System 1.d4 and 2.Bf4 Foxy Deadly Opening Weapons Series No. 75. That should be very nearly all of them.
  
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Re: e3 Before ...e6 in the Colle Zukertore or not
Reply #10 - 09/24/08 at 04:39:54
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I want to be the first to recognize the clarification GM Prie has given in his header to the d-Pawn Specials:

"I dare to maintain that the bishop's sortie 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4! (especially in comparison with the 'diminishing' 3.e3...) is remarkably well adapted to the information Black has so far given about his intended set-up. That is not entirely the case after 2...g6 and even less after 2...d5, as my opponents often play in order to skip 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4.

I am convinced that 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 represents the core of the "d-Pawn Specials" around which everything has to be constructed."

It seems that after 1...d5 the London Bishop should scoot up the aisle.  Cool
  
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Re: e3 Before ...e6 in the Colle Zukertore or not
Reply #9 - 09/23/08 at 16:22:33
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Ooops, I missed one other source dedicated to the London System and that is the London eBook in Chess Openings Wizzard (Bookup).
  
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Re: e3 Before ...e6 in the Colle Zukertore or not
Reply #8 - 09/22/08 at 22:57:56
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Maybe I've been too hasty here in claiming GM Prie's preference for 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 since the "mission statement" in d-Pawn Specials is:

"I dare to maintain that the bishop's sortie 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4! (especially in comparison with the 'diminishing' 3.e3...) is remarkably well adapted to the information Black has so far given about his intended set-up...."

I admit that I'm a little confused here as 1.d4 d5 is NOT in this sequence. Maybe that mission statement is not a mission statement or maybe it's a mission statement that needs expansion. I'm having a hard time keeping up here. Any thoughts to help out here?
  
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Re: e3 Before ...e6 in the Colle Zukertore or not
Reply #7 - 09/22/08 at 22:18:17
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I wonder how many times you transposed into the CZ after the sequence: 1. d4 d5, 2. Nf3 Nf6, 3. b3?! ?

Sverre Johnsen, and I'm guessing GM Prie (after stepping through the games of his latest report on the London System), recommend 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 for the London System. This seems to be strongly connected to Black's c7-c5 move. Johnsen discusses this on p.65 of his Win With the London System. Bronznik discussed the c7-c5 move on page 213 of his book on the Colle. Summerscale mentions it on page 75 of his book on the CZ. Johnsen gives a fine theoretical introduction for the support of 2.Bf4 after 1...d5.

By the way, I think I forgot to mention the DVD by Peter Wells on the London System. Other than those sources, I can't think of any others devoted to this opening system.
  
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Re: e3 Before ...e6 in the Colle Zukertore or not
Reply #6 - 09/12/08 at 05:23:35
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Sometimes, when playing against much weaker - on paper - opposition e.g. first round of a swiss (or even last round of a swiss if I sucked during the tourney Wink ), I have experimented with:

1. d4 d5, 2. Nf3 Nf6, 3. b3?!

I even managed to get some proper C-Z out of that move order

I don't know if that is playable though
  
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Re: e3 Before ...e6 in the Colle Zukertore or not
Reply #5 - 09/11/08 at 16:17:03
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Regarding my comment about IM Richard Palliser:

The actual move order he refers to on p.14 is 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.e3.

I have inferred that he would not want his readers to "walk into" a delayed Grunfeld structure.

Onlookers should note that ...d5 is not played in this sequence.
  
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Re: e3 Before ...e6 in the Colle Zukertore or not
Reply #4 - 09/11/08 at 16:01:21
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To clarify MNb's last reply, I think he is referring to GM Prie's comment: Quote:
Incidentally I believe 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 c5 justifies White's previous move 4.dxc5 e6 5. c4 Bxc5 6.a3 QGA reversed.
where our guide proposes 3...c5, not 2...c6 as MNb suggested in his last post.

Obviously, MNb is not a subscriber to d-Pawn Specials as he would know that GM Prie's August Update has commentary to address his query.

It's also interesting to note that IM Richard Palliser dissuades his readers from playing into 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 because of 3...g6. See page 14 in Starting Out: The Colle. However, he does not go as far as to decide the third move for his readers beyond giving the  list: 3.Bg5, 3.Bf4, 3.Nc3, and, of course, 3.c4. Since this is a d-pawn Special Forum, the 3.Nc3 and 3.Bg5 option might be worth a comment or two.

Our central idea here is to, at least, briefly discuss the other possibilities -- 3.Bg5 and 3.Nc3 -- since GM Prie has started to chop down trees (preparing a homeland?) for us in forest of 3.Bf4.

As we stand by and watch GM Prie's progress, we might consider keeping in mind the work done in Sverre Johnsen's book Win With the London System and Lane's book, Ideas Behind Modern Chess Openings. There might even be an 'older idea' in hard-to-find book, The London System, by Andrew Soltis. Surely, they all provide the hindsight here. Have I missed any relevant sources?
  
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Re: e3 Before ...e6 in the Colle Zukertore or not
Reply #3 - 09/11/08 at 02:08:07
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As GM Prié disagrees I am curious what he will offer against 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4 b6 4.e3 Bb7 5.Bd3 Ne4 and 5...Be7 and perhaps 6.h3 Ne4 is possible.
  

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Re: e3 Before ...e6 in the Colle Zukertore or not
Reply #2 - 09/10/08 at 15:19:56
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Quote:
You forgot 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c6 3.e3?! Bg4 plan ...e6; ...f5; ...Nf6 and Black has a Stonewall with the bad bishop outside of the chain.
You also omitted the ultrasolid 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 g6 and the best White can get is a rather lame variation of the Grünfeld.
I think White should play the Colle only after 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3 indeed and combine it with the Barry/London: 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Bf4 and 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.Bf4, when c5 4.e3 Nc6 is critical.


Further to what MNb stated:
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3

Though 2...Nf6 is played 62% of the time and 2...e6 is played 12% of the time, the strongest players are pushing their c7 pawn here (either to c6 (11%) or c5 (4%)).

The other moves of the position are: 2...Nc6 6%; 2...Bf5 4%; and 2...Bg4 1%.

I didn't bother given the delayed Grunfeld move order 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 g6 but it still stands as a potential deterrent to White's 3.e3, just as MNb states.

  
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Re: e3 Before ...e6 in the Colle Zukertore or not
Reply #1 - 09/08/08 at 20:59:37
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You forgot 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c6 3.e3?! Bg4 plan ...e6; ...f5; ...Nf6 and Black has a Stonewall with the bad bishop outside of the chain.
You also omitted the ultrasolid 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 g6 and the best White can get is a rather lame variation of the Grünfeld.
I think White should play the Colle only after 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3 indeed and combine it with the Barry/London: 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Bf4 and 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.Bf4, when c5 4.e3 Nc6 is critical.

Of course the ambitious player choses 2.c4 or 3.c4.
  

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