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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) e3 Before ...e6 in the Colle Zukertore or not (Read 12537 times)
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Re: e3 Before ...e6 in the Colle Zukertore or not
Reply #15 - 06/23/19 at 00:59:49
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Am I late to the thread? Heh! Great info here!

"How to beat d4" contains a specific chapter on the London and plays 3. ...c5 after the standard d4 d5 Nf3 Nf6 Bf4. I have the electronic version of it so I'm not sure how many pages it is, probably 10-15 of a tree structure with dry variations. This is a Black repertoire book built around the QGA by the way. Useful book if you are an autistic savant who can absorb reams and reams of variations, I guess.
  
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Re: e3 Before ...e6 in the Colle Zukertore or not
Reply #14 - 09/26/08 at 02:46:22
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After looking at Sverre Johnsen's Blog I've been educated about other sources for the London System.

There is a complete book dedicated to the London called Das London System (by Schmucker).

Apparently, there are sections on the London System in a number of books:

How to Beat 1.d4 (James Rizzitano)
The Chess Advantage in Black and White (Larry Kaufman)
How to Succeed in Queen Pawn Openings (Watson and Schiller)
Secrets of Opening Surprizes 5
New in Chess Yearbook 83

Maybe some players can inform us about the number of pages devoted to the London in this lot of five and give us a "bare bones" description of the lines covered.

  
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Re: e3 Before ...e6 in the Colle Zukertore or not
Reply #13 - 09/26/08 at 00:39:25
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Quote:
As GM Prié disagrees I am curious what he will offer against 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4 b6 4.e3 Bb7 5.Bd3 Ne4
. The fifth move suggestion comes from MNb.

Looking more closely at the games in the August update I could not see any reference to MNb's suggestion for Black, 5...Ne4. To me, it seems like a very reasonable suggestion. Maybe it will appear in September's update.

I appologize to MNb for cutting him short on this.  Sad
  
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Re: e3 Before ...e6 in the Colle Zukertore or not
Reply #12 - 09/25/08 at 15:58:15
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I've overlooked a couple of books that are not devoted exclusively to the London System but give it attention.   Embarrassed

IM John Cox has about twenty pages devoted to the London System in his monograph titled Dealing With the d4 Deviations (Ch 5, p.59-78). The total page count for this monograph is 144. The lines he discusses are:

1.d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 e6 3.Bf4 c5
1.d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 e6 3.Bf4 d5
1.d4 d5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3.Bf4 c5

Also, GM Joe Gallagher wrote nine pages to analyze two London System games (Zach vs. Bangiev and Yusupov vs. Tukmakov) in his monograph called Beating the Anti-King's Indians. (191 pages)

This, hopefully, gets very, very near to the end of the London System resources list.
  
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Re: e3 Before ...e6 in the Colle Zukertore or not
Reply #11 - 09/25/08 at 00:46:11
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I've found one more author, T.D. Harding, who condemns  e3 before ...e6. Specifically, in his monograph Colle, London, and Blackmar-Diemer Systems, 1979.

The warnings about the premature e3 seem to have been around a very long time! On p.16 of that book in the line 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.e3 g6 Harding states the Colle [structure] is not very good against the King's Indian setup.

Harding also discusses 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c5 on p.77 of this book giving a few pages of analysis on the moves 3.c4 (Harding attributes this move to Akiba Rubinstein) and 3.dc (T.D. Harding, like GM Prie, describes this move as a reversed QGA).

The Rubinstein move, though very interesting, may not see the light of day in d-Pawn Specials because of its "border crossing" issues. Maybe GM Prie will make an exception here, who knows? T. D. Harding makes the point that Rubinstein produced fines wins over GM F. Marshall and GM J. Capablanca with this move 3.c4.

Scanning the Internet for other references to the London I see that I've missed the London System DVD by IM Andrew Martin. It's called London System 1.d4 and 2.Bf4 Foxy Deadly Opening Weapons Series No. 75. That should be very nearly all of them.
  
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Re: e3 Before ...e6 in the Colle Zukertore or not
Reply #10 - 09/24/08 at 04:39:54
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I want to be the first to recognize the clarification GM Prie has given in his header to the d-Pawn Specials:

"I dare to maintain that the bishop's sortie 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4! (especially in comparison with the 'diminishing' 3.e3...) is remarkably well adapted to the information Black has so far given about his intended set-up. That is not entirely the case after 2...g6 and even less after 2...d5, as my opponents often play in order to skip 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4.

I am convinced that 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 represents the core of the "d-Pawn Specials" around which everything has to be constructed."

It seems that after 1...d5 the London Bishop should scoot up the aisle.  Cool
  
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Re: e3 Before ...e6 in the Colle Zukertore or not
Reply #9 - 09/23/08 at 16:22:33
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Ooops, I missed one other source dedicated to the London System and that is the London eBook in Chess Openings Wizzard (Bookup).
  
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Re: e3 Before ...e6 in the Colle Zukertore or not
Reply #8 - 09/22/08 at 22:57:56
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Maybe I've been too hasty here in claiming GM Prie's preference for 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 since the "mission statement" in d-Pawn Specials is:

"I dare to maintain that the bishop's sortie 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4! (especially in comparison with the 'diminishing' 3.e3...) is remarkably well adapted to the information Black has so far given about his intended set-up...."

I admit that I'm a little confused here as 1.d4 d5 is NOT in this sequence. Maybe that mission statement is not a mission statement or maybe it's a mission statement that needs expansion. I'm having a hard time keeping up here. Any thoughts to help out here?
  
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Re: e3 Before ...e6 in the Colle Zukertore or not
Reply #7 - 09/22/08 at 22:18:17
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I wonder how many times you transposed into the CZ after the sequence: 1. d4 d5, 2. Nf3 Nf6, 3. b3?! ?

Sverre Johnsen, and I'm guessing GM Prie (after stepping through the games of his latest report on the London System), recommend 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 for the London System. This seems to be strongly connected to Black's c7-c5 move. Johnsen discusses this on p.65 of his Win With the London System. Bronznik discussed the c7-c5 move on page 213 of his book on the Colle. Summerscale mentions it on page 75 of his book on the CZ. Johnsen gives a fine theoretical introduction for the support of 2.Bf4 after 1...d5.

By the way, I think I forgot to mention the DVD by Peter Wells on the London System. Other than those sources, I can't think of any others devoted to this opening system.
  
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Re: e3 Before ...e6 in the Colle Zukertore or not
Reply #6 - 09/12/08 at 05:23:35
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Sometimes, when playing against much weaker - on paper - opposition e.g. first round of a swiss (or even last round of a swiss if I sucked during the tourney Wink ), I have experimented with:

1. d4 d5, 2. Nf3 Nf6, 3. b3?!

I even managed to get some proper C-Z out of that move order

I don't know if that is playable though
  
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Re: e3 Before ...e6 in the Colle Zukertore or not
Reply #5 - 09/11/08 at 16:17:03
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Regarding my comment about IM Richard Palliser:

The actual move order he refers to on p.14 is 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.e3.

I have inferred that he would not want his readers to "walk into" a delayed Grunfeld structure.

Onlookers should note that ...d5 is not played in this sequence.
  
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Re: e3 Before ...e6 in the Colle Zukertore or not
Reply #4 - 09/11/08 at 16:01:21
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To clarify MNb's last reply, I think he is referring to GM Prie's comment: Quote:
Incidentally I believe 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 c5 justifies White's previous move 4.dxc5 e6 5. c4 Bxc5 6.a3 QGA reversed.
where our guide proposes 3...c5, not 2...c6 as MNb suggested in his last post.

Obviously, MNb is not a subscriber to d-Pawn Specials as he would know that GM Prie's August Update has commentary to address his query.

It's also interesting to note that IM Richard Palliser dissuades his readers from playing into 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 because of 3...g6. See page 14 in Starting Out: The Colle. However, he does not go as far as to decide the third move for his readers beyond giving the  list: 3.Bg5, 3.Bf4, 3.Nc3, and, of course, 3.c4. Since this is a d-pawn Special Forum, the 3.Nc3 and 3.Bg5 option might be worth a comment or two.

Our central idea here is to, at least, briefly discuss the other possibilities -- 3.Bg5 and 3.Nc3 -- since GM Prie has started to chop down trees (preparing a homeland?) for us in forest of 3.Bf4.

As we stand by and watch GM Prie's progress, we might consider keeping in mind the work done in Sverre Johnsen's book Win With the London System and Lane's book, Ideas Behind Modern Chess Openings. There might even be an 'older idea' in hard-to-find book, The London System, by Andrew Soltis. Surely, they all provide the hindsight here. Have I missed any relevant sources?
  
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Re: e3 Before ...e6 in the Colle Zukertore or not
Reply #3 - 09/11/08 at 02:08:07
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As GM Prié disagrees I am curious what he will offer against 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4 b6 4.e3 Bb7 5.Bd3 Ne4 and 5...Be7 and perhaps 6.h3 Ne4 is possible.
  

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Re: e3 Before ...e6 in the Colle Zukertore or not
Reply #2 - 09/10/08 at 15:19:56
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Quote:
You forgot 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c6 3.e3?! Bg4 plan ...e6; ...f5; ...Nf6 and Black has a Stonewall with the bad bishop outside of the chain.
You also omitted the ultrasolid 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 g6 and the best White can get is a rather lame variation of the Grünfeld.
I think White should play the Colle only after 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3 indeed and combine it with the Barry/London: 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Bf4 and 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.Bf4, when c5 4.e3 Nc6 is critical.


Further to what MNb stated:
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3

Though 2...Nf6 is played 62% of the time and 2...e6 is played 12% of the time, the strongest players are pushing their c7 pawn here (either to c6 (11%) or c5 (4%)).

The other moves of the position are: 2...Nc6 6%; 2...Bf5 4%; and 2...Bg4 1%.

I didn't bother given the delayed Grunfeld move order 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 g6 but it still stands as a potential deterrent to White's 3.e3, just as MNb states.

  
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Re: e3 Before ...e6 in the Colle Zukertore or not
Reply #1 - 09/08/08 at 20:59:37
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You forgot 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c6 3.e3?! Bg4 plan ...e6; ...f5; ...Nf6 and Black has a Stonewall with the bad bishop outside of the chain.
You also omitted the ultrasolid 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 g6 and the best White can get is a rather lame variation of the Grünfeld.
I think White should play the Colle only after 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3 indeed and combine it with the Barry/London: 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Bf4 and 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.Bf4, when c5 4.e3 Nc6 is critical.

Of course the ambitious player choses 2.c4 or 3.c4.
  

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e3 Before ...e6 in the Colle Zukertore or not
09/08/08 at 04:17:20
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What follows an attempt to illustrate the move orders in the debate over the e3 before …e6 issue that has bubbled up in a couple of threads in the d-Pawn Specials Forum. At the very least the placement of the Colle Zukertorte order has been put in question. I hope I’ve clarified the parameters of this issue so some excellent chess minds can cast some light on whether …e6 before e3 really matters?  

Decisions about move orders and lines used in this repertoire file were made
using the "Selection to Book" feature and Big Database 2008. The moves chosen were those most commonly played in Big Database 2008. I've given move frequency percentages wherever I could do so. To me, this seems to be a practical approach to preparing an opening repertoire when strangers face one another across the board.

1.d4 d5

(You are more likely to enter a Queen's Indian Defense, a Barry Attack, or a Pirc Defense than a Colle Zukertorte structure after Black plays 1... Nf6 and after 2. Nf3:

(2... g6 is the most frequently played move here and occurs about forty-three percent of the time. Your Summerscale move here is 3.Nc3 Now you have a 63% chance of playing into a Barry Attack after 3…d5 and a
34% chance of entering a Pirc Defense via the common 3... Bg7 4. e4 or the
much less common 3... d6 4. e4 Bg7. You'll only see 3... c5 played here
9% of the time. After you play 4. d5 it's a transposition to the 3...g6
variation of the Schmidt Benoni.)

(2…e6 is played by Black only twenty-nine percent of the time. This is one entry gate to the Colle Zukertorte System outside the 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 move order. Note that Black plays e7-e6 before White plays e2-e3 here. What does this mean for White player who wants a Colle Zukertorte structure to appear on the board? I guess GM Prie would say -- and this is close to quoting him – that this move enables White to avoid 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 Bg4 transposing into a fashionable line of the Slav after 4.c4 c6 (See December 2003 update of D-Pawn Specials) or after 3.e3 Black could play 3...c6 more or less forcing 4.c4, under the threat of immediate, comfortable, equalization by Bf5 or Bg4, which is just an ordinary 'slow' Slav where Black has the supplementary choice of 4...Bf5, 4...a6, 4...e6. Now if White plays 3.e3 here we meet the criterion GM Prie sets down for us to follow, ie., ...e6 before e3. From my investigation, after this, the choice comes down to Colle Zukertorte or QID, 4.e3 Variation, but it is Black's choice, not White's. Black will only play d7-d5 here, entering the Colle structure, about fifteen percent of the time! To me this is one of the sticky points. It is Black who has the decision to enter the Colle Zukertorte regardless of whether e3 comes in first or second in the move order. If White abandons 3.e3 in the 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 move order, he automatically deprives himself of a thirty-five percent chance of entering the Colle Zukertorte! Is the Zukertorte offer, here, used only to significantly limit Black's options in the QID? Is this why someone called it a QID weapon?  More commonly, about fifty-two percent of the time, White will see 3…b6 being played. With this move Black is stubbornly stating his preference for the Queen's Indian Defense. Most of us will probably play along, in Colle Zukertorte fashion, looking for a chance to reach the non-theoretical main line of the QID, 4.e3 variation. (Black also plays 3... c5 thirty percent of the time here and now you have a very good chance to get the Colle Zukertorte pawn structure! Still, that choice is left up to Black. (4. Bd3 d5 is played fifty-six percent of the time here by 2100 players but 2300 players play (4...b6 angling for the QID. It may be they don't want to deal with all the possible Colle structures after 4...d5. My guess is that they must be placing their hope in the QID, 4.e3 Variation's reputation as being non-theoretical, and relatively tame. White can head for the main line of the QID 4.e3 variation with 5. O-O Bb7 6. c4 Be7 7. Nc3) 5. b3 and we have the Zukertorte structure.) 4. Bd3 Bb7 5. O-O Can the strong knowledgable players tell us if 5.Nbd2 gets us any nearer to a satisfactory Colle Zukertorte structure here or are we well past that now? Yusupov, our Colle Zukertorte guru, has played this move here so it looks like he has abandoned the Zukertorte here, at least on this occasion. We are following his game score. Castling here is also the general choice of the master chess players. 5… c5 is the common move here, played about 56 percent of the time. (Forty-two percent of the time 5... Be7 is played and you can steer for the main line with 6. c4.) 6. c4

2... d5 occurs 11% of the time. Now we are back to the same debate described below (ie., 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3)).

2.Nf3 Nf6
This seems to be the most deceptive move that Black can make for the CZ player.

GM Prie comments: Black played 1….d5 ! Therefore, I assume he is ready to play a queen pawn set-up. It is not as if he is reacting to 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.e3 with 2...d5... here.

My investigation in Big Database 2008 gives (2... g6 as the most common reply here. Now White can play for a Barry Attack, as seen in the Summerscale book, with 3. Nc3 etc.)

3. e3
Black is just as likely to see White play 3.Bf4 (13%) but 3.Bg5 appears on the board only 8% of the time. 3.c4 is the most frequently played move occuring over 50% of the time.    

GM Prie: Personally I will never do anything (ie. work in D-Pawn Specials) on such a ridiculous move [order as] 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 e6..." ).... I am absolutely not interested by the C-Z for either side. Incidentally I believe 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 c5 justifies White's previous move 4.dxc5 e6 5. c4 Bxc5 6.a3 QGA reversed. According to me, all this is NOT the spirit of the d pawn specials.

Then in another Forum GM Prie gave us this reminder : The CZ is
relevant only in the move order 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3.;   1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 Bg4 transposing into a fashionable line of the Slav after 4.c4 c6 (See December 2003 update) or 3...c6 more or less forcing 4.c4,  under the threat of immediate, comfortable, equalization by Bf5 or Bg4, which is just an ordinary 'slow' Slav where Black has the supplementary choice of 4...Bf5, 4...a6, 4...e6.

IM John Cox hopped in here, maybe to soften his colleague's
comment, with this : I think Eric's point was that 3...e6 is a ridiculous move,
[meaning] something like 3...c6 or 3 ...Bf5 being better (not a universal view,
clearly, but less offbeat than saying 3 e3 was ridiculous). But I suppose even Eric will agree that 1 d4 Nf6 2 Nf3 e6 is a move order which some strong players have been known to use, so the C-Z can arise 'legitimately'.  

GM Tony Kosten also passed on his opinion about this move order saying: Eric's [GM Prie] opinion is that 3...e6 is a weak move (which is true!) as instead Black can get a good game by bringing his light-squared bishop out.  

Now these are opinions from very strong players. There seems to be room for some debate here and, I for one, would like to hear all about it before investing more precious time into repertoire construction.

To prevent the usual static from the cruising posters, I need to construct some constraints around the argument here. This is an argument that does not entertain 3.c4 so those who want to participate in it should confine their thoughts to 3.e3, 3.Bf4, or 3.Bg5 or some other d-Pawn Special solution. From his work in D-Pawn Specials, I will have to assume GM Prie promotes 3.Bg5 here or 3.Bf4. (Maybe he can clarify this for us without resorting to 3.c4) In any case, when Black sees 3.e3 he knows White is handing out an invitation to play a Colle or a Colle Zukertorte. Black can accept by playing 3...e6 or decline the offer. However, Black declines the offer sixty-five percent of the time! Obviously acceptance (the difference) is 35%.

Who is willing to organize a tight argument to defend the legitimacy of 3.e3 or promote another D-Pawn Special solution? If so, there are some points I would like to see addressed:

1. Since the refusal rate is so high, what's in it for me if Black refuses my offer to play the Colle Zukertorte?
2. Will I have a lighter load going the 3.e3 route?;ie.,
a) What is the workload in 3.e3 compared to 3.Bg5?
b) What's the workload in 3.e3 compared to 3.Bf4?
3. If I abandon 3.e3 here and opt for another move, other than 3.c4, what should it be? Why? (Me, here, is the average amateur B,A, Expert Class player.)
4. What does the skeleton of your chosen repertoire look like? Could you explain your reasons for your move orders?

  
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