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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C22: The Centre Game (Read 24949 times)
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Re: C22: The Centre Game
Reply #26 - 05/21/20 at 13:30:56
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Anyone interested in playing the Centre Games with White could do worse than study the games of GM Miguel Muñoz. He has some interesting ideas, probably not all good, but often setting opponents problems in fresh and often sharp positions. He's been employing the move order 3...Nc6 4 Qe3 Nf6 5 Bd2 and if 5...Be7 6 c4!?, when the engines think Black is slightly more than OK, but on the other hand if Black is inaccurate over the next few moves White will have space and a bind.

He's answering 4...g6 with 5 Nc3 Bg7 6 b3!?.

These ideas remind me of some recent tries with Qxd4 against the Sicilian!
  
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Re: C22: The Centre Game
Reply #25 - 05/21/20 at 11:14:56
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Jack Rudd wrote on 09/13/08 at 00:51:13:
I came a bit of a cropper with this in round 4 of the EU Championship:

[Event "EU Championship 4th"]
[Site "Liverpool"]
[Date "2008.09.12"]
[Round "4.24"]
[White "Rudd, Jack"]
[Black "Haslinger, Stewart G"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C22"]
[WhiteElo "2345"]
[BlackElo "2511"]
[PlyCount "84"]
[EventDate "2008.09.09"]

1. e4 e5 2. d4 exd4 3. Qxd4 Nc6 4. Qe3 Nf6 5. Nc3 Bb4 6. Bd2 O-O 7. O-O-O Re8 8. Qg3 Nxe4 9. Nxe4 Rxe4 10. c3 Be7 11. Nf3 d6 12. h3 Ne5 13. Ng5 Ra4 14. f4 Bxg5 15. fxe5 Bxd2+ 16. Rxd2 Rxa2 17. Kb1 Ra5 18. exd6 Be6 19. Be2 cxd6 20. Rxd6 Qe7 21. Re1 Ba2+ 22. Kc2 Re5 23. Rd2 Re8 24. Qf4 Re4 25. Qf3 Bc4 26. Bxc4 Rxe1 27. Rd4 Re3 28. Qd1 Qg5 29. g4 a6 30. Qf1 Qg6+ 31. Bd3 Qc6 32. g5 Qf3 33. Qxf3 Rxf3 34. h4 g6 35. Rd7 b5 36. Rd4 Kg7 37. Kb3 Ree3 38. Bc2 Rf2 39. Bd1 Rg3 40. Ka3 a5 41. Bb3 b4+ 42. cxb4 Rff3 0-1

Stewart reckons 12...Ne5 is a novelty, and we couldn't find a good response to it in the post-mortem. Anyone here got any suggestions, or improvements earlier?



8.Qf4 is a nice try, at least for blitz. (But who plays classical time controle OTB these days anyway?)  Nepomniachtchi played it a couple of times, albeit without great succes.

Carlsen also beat Tang with it in bullet, with the nice trick 8.Qf4  Bxc3 9.Bxc3 Nxe4? 10.Bc4 Nxc3? 11.Bxf7+ Kh8 12.Bxe8 ( threatening Qf8 mate!) Nxa2+ 13.Kb1 Qxe8 14.Kxa2.

Black can improve with 10..Nf6, which is probably objectively balanced, but black still has to take extreme care, for example after 11.Nf3 d6 12.Ng5 Be6 13.Nxe6 fxe6 14.Rhe1 d5 15.Qg5 a6? ( Kh8  the only move, but black has to see what's coming to consider it) 16.Rxe6! Rxe6 17. Bxd5 is winning, like i had the pleasure of executing myself once.

However, still better is 9.Bxc3 Rxe4! 10.Qg3 d6!  =+ (After 10..d5 11.f3 Re8 (11..Re6 (Anand) 12.Ne2 Rd6 13.Nd4 Nxd4 14.Bxd4 Bf5 15.h4 Rc8 16.Qf4 with compensation) 12. Ne2 Bf5 (12..a5!? 13.Nf4? ( better a3 which is about equal)Nb4 14.Kb1 Bf5-/+ Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen )13.Nf4 d4! (13..Bg6 14.Bxf6 Qxf6 15.Nxd5 Qf5 16.Rd2 Rac8 17.Bc4 +=) 14.Bb5 Qd6 15.Bxc6 Qxc6 16.Rxd4 Re3 17.Nd3 Rae8 18.Nb4 Qb6 19.Nd5 Nxd5 20.Rxd5 Bg6 21.Rhd1 is approximately level)

11.f3 Re8  12.Ne2 Ne5 13.Nf4 Bf5 14.h4 Qd7  when white's compensation is probably not quite sufficient.

However, since 95% of my opponents play Nxe4  like Tang instead, this line gives me a huge score in blitz.

Wouldnt recommend it for correspondence play though...
  
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Re: The Centre Game
Reply #24 - 02/27/14 at 06:59:27
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Alluren wrote on 09/13/08 at 15:23:42:
Maybe by playing Bd2 before Nc3 to avoid the Bb4 variation :

1 e4 e5 2 d4 ed4 3 Qd4 Nc6 4 Qe3 Nf6 5 Bd2


I hope this game with my analysis could help
  
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Re: The Centre Game
Reply #23 - 09/18/10 at 10:37:28
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@micawber: Unfortunately I don't think white can solve his problems, just that 11.f4 might be his best try. Anyway, the variations you give appear convincing to me.

Considering your suggestion 11.f4 d5 12.Bd3 Bh4 13.Qf3 Re8 14.Ne2,

I think white has insufficient compensation after 14. ... d4!? 15.Be4 Be6 16.Be1 Be1: 17.Rhe1: Ba2: 18.Nd4: Nd4: 19.Rd4: Qf6 20.Red1 c6.

Alternatively there is 18.Bc6: bc6: 19.Nd4 Qf6 20.Re8: Re8: 21.Qc6: Qf4:+, when black is also better, but with his strong knight on d4 white can hope to hold.

Perhaps also 14.Nd4: Nd4 15.cd4: Qd4: 16.Bc3 Qc5 17.Bc2 is interesting.

Rybka likes 14. ... a5!? best, although I think that white has some counterplay after 15.Be1!?

In any case, I fear that the whole position is just worse for white and he has to play very inventively to make a draw!  Sad
One of the basic problems is that black's kingside has no weaknesses, while on the white queenside there is already a 'hook' on c3.
  
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Re: The Centre Game
Reply #22 - 09/16/10 at 16:23:36
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@fightingdragon
I am not entirely sure that 11.f4 solves all white's problems:


1. e4 e5 2. d4 exd4 3. Qxd4 Nc6 4. Qe3 Nf6 5. Nc3 Bb4 6. Bd2 O-O 7. O-O-O Re8 8. Qg3 Nxe4 9. Nxe4 Rxe4 10. c3 Be7



11.f4,d5    (11...Bh4 12.Qf3,d5 is only a transposition)
12.Bd3,Bh4
13.Qf3,Re8

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14.g4         (My suggestion for white is to play 14.Ne2 first to see what Black's plans are)
And now there are two lines
A)14.....,  Be7
B)14.....,  d4!


line A
14......,Be7
15.Ne2
       (Bueckers suggestion 15.Qh3,h6 16.Nf3 is worth considering)
........,a5 (15...Be6 16.h4 (Ball-Litz, corr.,2001;better 16.Kb1) and now 16...d4! and I still prefer Black)
16.h4, a4  (is a bit unclear)
17.g5, a3
18.b3,       (White has definitely compensation)
The game continued
18...d4, 19.h5,Be6 20.g6!? (20.Qe4! +/=),hxg6 (But what about 18...Be4! =/+) Rudd-Lefevre, 2010

line B
14....,d4! (I think this is Black's strongest reply)
15.g5,      (I dont see many alterntives for White)
15....., g6!
16.Qg2,Qd6!
(or 16.....dxc3 17.Bxc3,Qd6 transposing)
17.Nf3, dxc3!
18.Bxc3,Nb4
19.Bxb4            (19.Nxh4,Qxf4 -/+)
19........,Qxb4
(And Black is clearly better even though it took him another 40 moves to convert his advantage)
(Ferrier - Pintor, LSS corr., 2009)


« Last Edit: 09/16/10 at 20:56:20 by micawber »  
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Re: The Centre Game
Reply #21 - 09/14/10 at 13:19:51
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Hey Jack,

in the database I have seen that you took up my suggestion 11.f4 and played 2 games with it! What do you think of the move?

I have heard that 11.f4 was also a recommendation of Buecker, but can't say anything about it as in the original Centre Game article in Kaissiber 7 there is no mention of it.
  
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Re: The Centre Game
Reply #20 - 03/20/09 at 18:31:39
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After looking at the position (the main game) a bit I would suggest 11.f4!? as the best try for white. At least he avoids exchanges and the queen does not come into problems.
  
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Re: The Centre Game
Reply #19 - 10/14/08 at 08:59:41
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@cheesemate:

Sorry for the mix-up in my line two:

6...Ngxe5 7.f4 d5 8.Qe2 Bg4 9.Nf3,Bc5 10.h3


What I did have in mind was.
10.h3,
10....., Bxf3
 (Although cheesemate's 10...0-0 11.hxg,Nxg 12.Ne5,Nxe5 is interesting as well)
11.gxf3,0-0
12.fxe5,Nxe5



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With the intentions:
13.Kd1, Re8  or 13.f4,Nc4 14.Kd1,Re8 (or 14...Qd6)
It is quite difficult for white to bring out his Q-side pieces.
(13.Bd2,Nc4-+; 13.Nc3,Qh4 14.Kd1,Rfe8 -/+ [followed by Nc4/Nf3] 13.Nbd2,Re8 -/+;13.b3?,Qh4 14.Kd1,Qd4-+)
  
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Re: The Centre Game
Reply #18 - 10/13/08 at 14:37:54
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Roger Williamson wrote on 09/26/08 at 15:16:02:
May I suggest 1. e4 e5 2. a3 the "Surtees Attack" (hasn't received nearly enough coverage on this site).


Why not? To be all the more consequent I twice played 1.a3 in correspondence-masterclass some 15 years ago an won both.
1.e4 e5 2.a3 as you gave it is simply trying to trick Black in an unfavourable line of a colours-reversed opening. May work, may not work. The great John Watson in his books on strategy deals with that item, showing that it is not so easy to simply change the roles. This is best shown in the King's Indian. It is quite remarkable that this sufficiantly works for Black and when you directly change colours so that White plays the King's Indian as an attack (as it quite often is in the hands of Black in the normal KI), then it too works for Black. Being a tempo down is good for him. In the normal lines the tempo he is down is that for castling. And having not castled is good as Black can begin an attack with the push h7-h5-h4 supported by the not yet castled king.
Chess is goddamn difficult...
  

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Re: The Centre Game
Reply #17 - 10/13/08 at 14:18:22
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micawber wrote on 10/12/08 at 09:24:11:
On remedy 5:

I have had an ambush prepared for this a long time ago,
but so far no CC-player ventured to play 5.e5 so:

5.e5,Ng4
6.Qe4,Ngxe5!?


7.f4,    d5
8.Qe2
, Bg4!
9.Nf3  
         (9.Qe3, Bb4+ 10.Bd2, 0-0 and white will have a hard time saving himself)
9......, Bc5!          ( 9...Bxf3? 10.gxf3, Be7 11.fxe5 +- [Kasiancuk-Scibior, Poland, 2001)
10.h3                 (10.fxe5,Nd4! 11.Qd1,Bxf3 12.gxf3, Qh4 -+)
10......., Nxe5    
(With two pawns for the piece, white's king stuck in the centre and an ongoing attack black has ample compensation for his sac)




Thanks for the quick answers mirawber,
they are impressive.
I think it’s time to write an article „At the sickbed of the Center Game“ resembling the comparable article on the King’s Gambit, Spielmann (if I am not erring) once wrote. I feal that there is a tremondous amount of concrete analysis that crack down older and now as superficial detected analysis. In my first post I emphasized my overall feeling on the Center Game as being not reliable enough. Mirawbers ideas strengthen this feeling. The CG basically breaks several rules of opening play and that in an open position: do not move the queen to early, do not move a peace twice or at least not to often. Yes, these are only rules of thumb but they apply especially good to open games.
Mirwaber is right with 7...d5 as a sensible answer to remedy 3 cause it ripps open the center an thus stopps this idea right in the tracks. The only sensible – and whimpy - continuation seems to be 8.0-0-0 (to get away with the king) 8...Bd6 9.Qd3 (the queen restlessly stumbles around – I refer to my words introducing remedy 7) 9...dxe4 10.Nxe4 Bf5 11.Nxf6+ Qxf6 an Black is better.
mirawbers blow to remedy 5 (5.e5 Ng4 6.Qe4) 6...Ngxe5 was given a „?“ in Bilguer 1916/1922 (according to Stefan Bücker in Kaissiber 7/1998 who didn’t deal with it beyond 7.f4 d5 8.Qe2 Bg4 9.Nf3 which is mirawbers line 2 an seems best.mirawer continues with 9...Bc5 10.h3 but now has a typo (10...Nxe5 as he gave is not possible) A may be to superficial analysis of mine goes 10...0-0 11.hxg4 Nxg4 12.Ne5 Nxe5 13.fxe5 Te8 14.Kd1 Nxe5 (I think mirawbers line will be the same). We have reached a slippery ground. Three pawns can be enough for piece or not (in a recent corr-game from another opening I had this ratio with the piece on my side and I won easiely. Yes, White’s army is still asleep while his king is yet on the road but there are no files open for heavy fire on him yet. May be with sensible defence White can hold his own emerging with a better endgame. One should never underestimate the defencive ressources. Defence is sadly enough a widely neglected field of chess, seemly because it is difficult to get a grip on it. Oftenly it is simply – but difficult to do – inverse tactics where one tries to find escapes and a single - and all to often well hidden - one suffices. I only know four books on that item and I am not sure whether they are usefull) Those who want to play remedy 5 – in the Netherlands the correspondence-player Etmans several times used to play like this at least in the 90ies – should analyse this in depth.
The others should head for remedy 6 (the riscy Halász-Gambit) if they are wild and willing, or to remedy 7 (Warschauer Angriff) if they like a solid game.
Conclusion: The acutal main lines are more than a bit under clouds today and that with absolutely normal play by Black: 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.Qxd4 Nc6 4.Qe3?! (4.Qa4!) 4...Nf6 5.Nc3?! (5.Bd2! as in remedy 4, 5.e5!? to ?!) 5...Bb4!? (Nb4!) 6.Bd2 0-0 7.0-0-0 (7.Qg3? - Bücker, 7...d5 – mirawber) 7...Re8 8.Qg3? (But what else? Most likely White should play 8.Bc4, the classical main line advocated once by Steinitz. Kaissiber 7/1998 gave a closer look – I havn’t got into it because I decided not to play the CG at all) 8...Nxe4 9.Nxe4 Rxe4 and White has problems as Rudd - Haslinger has shown.
Is the circle closed now?
  

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micawber
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Re: The Centre Game
Reply #16 - 10/12/08 at 15:15:35
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Mike Surtees played this quite a few times between 2002 and 2006.
But that in itself isn't enough to name the opening.
Hans Hofstetter was there before him, playing it at least as much between 1994 and 1999.
Mengarin played this opening in a game recorded in 1954.
But again C.Alexander was there before him playing it at high level
against Millner Barry in 1933.
Perhaps we should ask our Russian friends for a name,
as they named almost all openings after Russian chessplayers.
[url][/url]
By the way, we might also regard all the above as a main line of the
important opening 1.a3!

All this is slightly off-topic, if you want to discuss 1.e4,e5 2.a3 start a new thread!
So let's get on with  the CENTRE GAME and
continue the discussion of the remedies cheesemate provided.


On Remedie 4
(I've allready given my view on remedies 3 and 5).
5.Bd2,Bb4 6.a3 is off course playable. The claim of a small advantage for white seems a bit exaggerated, but that is my personal opinion.
More to the point:
5.Bd2,Be7 is perfectly satisfactory for black.

When
6.Bc4,
        (1) 6.....d5 7.exd5,Nxd5 8.Qg3, 0-0 =+
        (2) 6...0-0  7.Nc3,Ng4! 8.Qe2,d5!
        with a transposition to my innovation in the 1.e4,e5 Dangerous weapens thread:
          http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1194182253/30

6.Nc3,
d5!
      (1) 7.Nxd5,Nxd5 8.exd5,Qxd5=
      (2).7.exd5,Nxd5 8.Qg3,Ncb4! 9.0-0-0,Nxc3!
           (2a) 10.Bxc3??,Nxa2+ -+
           (2b).10.bxc3,Nxa2 11.Kb2,Nxc3 12.Kxc3,Bf6 -/+

                 (Hernandez-Guadamuro, Linares, 2007)

I can't help noticing that a forum member after digesting 4 or 5
pages of this forum is armed and dangerous

against the "Dangerous weapons 1.e4,e5"   Wink

« Last Edit: 10/12/08 at 16:24:04 by micawber »  
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Re: The Centre Game
Reply #15 - 10/12/08 at 13:30:32
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Roger Williamson wrote on 09/26/08 at 15:16:02:
  May I suggest 1. e4 e5 2. a3 the "Surtees Attack" (hasn't received nearly enough coverage on this site).

Hmm, I thought that was the Mengarini Opening. Where does the name Surtees come from?
  
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Re: The Centre Game
Reply #14 - 10/12/08 at 09:24:11
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On remedy 5:

I have had an ambush prepared for this a long time ago,
but so far no CC-player ventured to play 5.e5 so:

5.e5,Ng4
6.Qe4,Ngxe5!?



7.f4,d5 (1) 8.Qe3 (2) 8.Qe2


line 1
7.f4,d5
8.Qe3
,d4
9.Qe2,
         (9.Qe4,Qh4+ 10.g3,Qg4!  -+ black pins pawn f4, rescues his knight, and has Qg6/Bf5 ready [Mora-Bellia, Rome 1991]
9......., Bb4
10.Kd1  
          (10.Bd2,Bg4 -+)
10........., Bg4
11.Nf3, d3!
12.cxd3,
            (12.Qe4,dxc2+ 13.Kxc2,Qd7! -+)
12........,Qxd3+!!
13.Qxd3, Nxd3
14.Bxd3
14........, 0-0-0!  
 (
The point: I've not been able to find a way for white to rescue his material surplus)


line 2


7.f4,    d5
8.Qe2
, Bg4!
9.Nf3  
         (9.Qe3, Bb4+ 10.Bd2, 0-0 and white will have a hard time saving himself)
9......, Bc5!          ( 9...Bxf3? 10.gxf3, Be7 11.fxe5 +- [Kasiancuk-Scibior, Poland, 2001)
10.h3                 (10.fxe5,Nd4! 11.Qd1,Bxf3 12.gxf3, Qh4 -+)
10......., Nxe5    
(With two pawns for the piece, white's king stuck in the centre and an ongoing attack black has ample compensation for his sac)
« Last Edit: 10/12/08 at 12:42:51 by micawber »  
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Re: The Centre Game
Reply #13 - 10/12/08 at 07:45:09
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Thx Cheesemate for your deep survey.
I've a question though on remedy 3.
7.Qg3,Re8 seems a quite normal reaction by black, when white indeed might profit a bit, and get a playable game.
But what about 7.....d5?
You might have noticed from my earlier analysis on the centre gambit
this move is constantly on my mind in the CG  Wink

7....d5


Two variations come to mind:
8.0-0-0, Bd6!
And white cant get his desired set-up with 0-0-0/Qg3/f3
as the queen has to move to an unpleasant field anyway from black's kingside.
Note that after 9.Qh4,Nxe4! 10.Qxd8,Rxd8 11.Nxe4, dxe4 white has no visible compensation for his lost pawn.

8.f3?!,d4!
9.Nce2,Bxd2+
10.Kxd2, Nh5!

And again white's queen has no good retreat:
11.Qf2,f5! and white's position is not very comfortable.
11.Qe1,Qg5 and white's position is a mess.
  
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Re: The Centre Game
Reply #12 - 10/12/08 at 03:17:09
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TopNotch wrote on 09/24/08 at 17:43:45:
So much for the three chapters and 100 pages produced by Andrew Greet in Dangerous Weapons 1.e4 e5, what a waste of space. It would have been much much better to devote some of that space to providing some useful ideas in combating the Two Knights Defence so as to compliment the Max Lange Attack and Max Lange Gambit of chapters 1 and 2.

Everyone one that plays the Two Knights Defence knows that the problem with the Max Lange Attack is the following effective and reliable anti Max Lange antidote:  1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.0-0 Nxe4! .

Perhaps the task of recommending something interesting vs the TKD proved too challenging.  Wink

Tops Smiley


Don't be to harsh with Greet, but I agree that 100 pages are a bit to much. And I don't know whether that book has a cure for the move 5...Nb4! (after 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.Qxd4 Nc6 4.Qe3 Nf6 5.Nc3?!).
Anyway, you are asking for analysis on this answer to the Max-Lange-attack? Well, there is much material in German-language magazine Kaissiber, issue 28 (2007).
GM Lew Gutman spends a lot of time and space uncovering the subtleties of a part of this variation. His main line goes like this: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.0-0 Nxe4 6.Te1 d5 7.Bxd5 Dxd5 8.Nc3 Qd8 9.Txe4+ Le7 10.Nxd4 f5 11.Tf4 0-0 12.Nxc6 Qxd1+ 13.Nxd1 bxc6 14.Ra4... with a middle/endgame and +/=. 30 pages loaded with old and new material and original analysis. And this is only the first part!
Gutman has announced another part dealing with the deviations 8...Qa5 and 8...Qh5 and with 7.Nc3. I havn’t found it yet, think it will be published in the future. Surely there again will be pages and pages. It will tend to suffocate you.
And, as ever, at the end one thing will be clear: Nothing is clear...
  

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