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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Dutch Defence, early problems? (Read 25086 times)
Dragonslayer
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Re: Dutch Defence, early problems?
Reply #40 - 08/09/09 at 17:14:54
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@ Markovich
tafl wrote on 10/24/08 at 10:00:54:
What does the move-order 1.d4 f5 2.Nc3 d5 achieve?

White gets the extra opportunity 3.Bf4!? and 3.Bg5 c6 4.e3 Nd7 5.Bd3 Ndf6 doesn't look very natural for Black who scores quite poorly (admittedly in only 26 games). Black can try 4...Qb6 but taking the b2-pawn looks risky.


Rather than worry about this I would play 2...Nf6.

See the point  Wink

P.S. No one replied (in earnest) to this!
  
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Markovich
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Re: Dutch Defence, early problems?
Reply #39 - 08/07/09 at 01:07:57
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Dragonslayer wrote on 08/06/09 at 21:26:21:
Markovich wrote on 08/06/09 at 15:26:12:
Rather than worry about this I would play 2...d5.


Yes, many would and I always appreciate your input, but I don't see how this statement advances the discussion.


Just sitting here chewing the fat and opining a little bit, you know?  Like talking about coon dogs.  Take it for what it's worth, I don't mind.
  

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Dragonslayer
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Re: Dutch Defence, early problems?
Reply #38 - 08/06/09 at 21:26:21
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Markovich wrote on 08/06/09 at 15:26:12:
Rather than worry about this I would play 2...d5.


Yes, many would and I always appreciate your input, but I don't see how this statement advances the discussion.
The idea behind ...e6 is to have one system against two different White setups - 1.d4 f5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bg5 (or 3.e4 fxe4 4.Bg4) e6 and 2.e4 fxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 e6. This line has been recommended in various books, and not bad books either.
I wouldn't put too much in statistics. In many games White outrated Black or Black played an inferior subvariation e.g. castling kingside early. After all you only need one game demonstrating the right plan for Black to nullify 1000 previous White wins in inferior variations.
Still, the statistics do indicate that it is much easier being White here. I guess the choice between 2...Nf6 and 2...d5 (I have played both and never met 7.h4) depends one why you play the Dutch. To win you sometimes have to take some risk. Not any random risk, but a calculated risk.
Anyone want to discuss the position after 1.d4 f5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bg5 e6 4.e4 fxe4 5.Nxe4 Be7 6.Nxf6+ Bxf6 7.h4 Qe7 8.Bd3 Nc6
  
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Markovich
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Re: Dutch Defence, early problems?
Reply #37 - 08/06/09 at 15:26:12
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Rather than worry about this I would play 2...d5.
  

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Dragonslayer
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Re: Dutch Defence, early problems?
Reply #36 - 08/05/09 at 13:13:11
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tafl wrote on 08/04/09 at 18:08:35:
1.d4 f5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bg5 e6 may be underestimated. After 4.e4 fxe4 5.Nxe4 (interestingly this can be reached also via the move-order 2.e4 fxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 e6) 5...Be7 6.Bxf6! Bxf6, I have never seen the claim that 7.h4 is such a fabulous move but it seems to be the most popular and has been played by Levitt among others so it must have some merit.

I think 7...Nc6 must be best. I seem to remember that Bellin (or was it Silman?) in one of his old books on the Dutch recommended a plan involving ...b6, ...Bb7, ...Qe7 and ...0-0-0 in a similar position. That could be worth considering here too.


Bellin (1990) [on page 79] mentions 6.Nxf6+ Bxf6 7.h4! [his exclam] then he gives a variation showing how bad 7...Bxg5 is, and a game with 7...0-0 (which is almost never a good idea in this line, Black should strive for queenside castling). Finally he gives 7...Qe7! [again his exclam] without any indications as to plans or variations.
Harding (1976) and Schwarz (1964) also quote Schneider's analysis of 7...Bxg5. Both think White will get the advantage.
On 7...Nc6 Schwarz gives 8.Qd2 with idea 0-0-0, while on 7...d6 he gives 8.Bd3!
I would prefer Bellin's move and follow it with ...Nc6, ...b6, ...Bb7 and 0-0-0 as mentioned above. As usual, an alternative plan is ...d6, Bd7, Nc6 and 0-0-0.
A warning: the position after 7.h4 occurred 29 times in Mega database 2006: +24=3-2 or 88% for White.
At least one never book on the Dutch ignores 6.Nxf6+ and only gives 6.Bxf6, which seems a bit careless.
  
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Re: Dutch Defence, early problems?
Reply #35 - 08/04/09 at 18:08:35
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1.d4 f5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bg5 e6 may be underestimated. After 4.e4 fxe4 5.Nxe4 (interestingly this can be reached also via the move-order 2.e4 fxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 e6) 5...Be7 6.Bxf6! Bxf6, I have never seen the claim that 7.h4 is such a fabulous move but it seems to be the most popular and has been played by Levitt among others so it must have some merit.

I think 7...Nc6 must be best. I seem to remember that Bellin (or was it Silman?) in one of his old books on the Dutch recommended a plan involving ...b6, ...Bb7, ...Qe7 and ...0-0-0 in a similar position. That could be worth considering here too.
  

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Re: Dutch Defence, early problems?
Reply #34 - 08/04/09 at 17:25:33
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Henrik wrote on 08/04/09 at 12:24:57:
Hello I am new here i have i question,
everbody is saying the position after 1.d4 f5 2.Sc3 Sf6 3.Lg5 e6 4.e4 fxe4 5.Sxe4 Le7 and now 6.Lxf6 ! Lxf6 7.h4 !! to be very dangerous for black. is it really so favourable for white? can you give me some varations? thx henrik (FM)


Well, Black is to move.  But in any case, welcome.
  

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Re: Dutch Defence, early problems?
Reply #33 - 08/04/09 at 12:24:57
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Hello I am new here i have i question,
everbody is saying the position after 1.d4 f5 2.Sc3 Sf6 3.Lg5 e6 4.e4 fxe4 5.Sxe4 Le7 and now 6.Lxf6 ! Lxf6 7.h4 !! to be very dangerous for black. is it really so favourable for white? can you give me some varations? thx henrik (FM)
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Dutch Defence, early problems?
Reply #32 - 08/02/09 at 21:29:47
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Dragonslayer wrote on 08/02/09 at 15:46:22:
Didn't I see some famous Swede play this with Black recently?  Wink

One might see it as a Latvian gambit with d3 and Nc6 thrown in. Or a Schliemann where White "forgot" to play Bb5. Why not simply play 4...d6 and get a good Philidor. Or Black can play 4...Nf6. What's the difference from the line where White takes the pawn with 4.exf5.


Yep, I've played it in Politiken... - of course, black can improve earlier but I'll save that for the next time...

The problem after 1. Nf3 f5 2. d3 Nc6 3.e4 e5 4.Nc3 d6 is that black is only making pawn moves, so white can afford to play e4xf5 + d3-d4 and Nf3-h4. Just see for yourself in Kindermann's 2nd edition i.e. the Englisch one, page 180 - it's probably not quite as gloomy as he thinks, but it's probably at least += nonetheless.
  
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Re: Dutch Defence, early problems?
Reply #31 - 08/02/09 at 15:46:22
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TalJechin wrote on 08/01/09 at 10:28:03:
1. Nf3 f5 2. d3 Nc6 3.e4 e5 4.Nc3 is the real problem I think. In a reversed KG white's better development is annoying if he has prepared with fritz/rybka - despite the insertion of the modest d3-move.


Didn't I see some famous Swede play this with Black recently?  Wink

One might see it as a Latvian gambit with d3 and Nc6 thrown in. Or a Schliemann where White "forgot" to play Bb5. Why not simply play 4...d6 and get a good Philidor. Or Black can play 4...Nf6. What's the difference from the line where White takes the pawn with 4.exf5.
  
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Re: Dutch Defence, early problems?
Reply #30 - 08/01/09 at 10:28:03
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1. Nf3 f5 2. d3 Nc6 3.e4 e5 4.Nc3 is the real problem I think. In a reversed KG white's better development is annoying if he has prepared with fritz/rybka - despite the insertion of the modest d3-move.
  
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Re: Dutch Defence, early problems?
Reply #29 - 08/01/09 at 02:42:35
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White's intention would be to make early use of the ...Nc6 if possible via d5 early on, instead of lamely trying to opt into a typical set-up a tempo down before playing it.

White has to justify his play after all. There was actually analysis (by Mnb I think, I could be wrong) in another thread, but I can't recall exactly where.
  

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Re: Dutch Defence, early problems?
Reply #28 - 07/31/09 at 20:48:55
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I must agree about 2. d3 being a gimmick.  I know I have read many good things about it, but it seems to me that it is fearful for those who play the Dutch that simply want to push their issue (i.e. opening choice).  I think a Dutch player should have a grasp of the ideas at hand, and should be able to play ...Nc6.  If they don't like that, then they can take up 1. Nf3 d6 as I have read about on the Internet, but then in case of 2. e4, you have to go into a Sicilian, Pirc, or something different than a Dutch.  Not to my preference.  I play 1...f5 because I am comfortable with those type of positions. 

1. Nf3 f5 2. d3 Nc6 3. d4 e6...If we are that concerned about the weak e-pawn, wouldn't it be better not to opt immediately for an IZ setup?  If from here, White were to develop in "traditional" Dutch format... I have an idea I would like to throw out here that I have read about before that we could consider...

1. Nf3 f5 2. d3 Nc6 3. d4 e6 4. g3 Nf6 5. Bg2 Be7 6. 0-0 0-0 7. c4 d6 8. Nc3 Qe8 and now the tempo comes into play...if 9. d5, then ...Nd8.  What does everyone think about this setup for Black?  And alternative lines before move 9?
  
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Re: Dutch Defence, early problems?
Reply #27 - 07/03/09 at 01:31:51
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The big problem with an early ...Nc6 is White's option d4-d5. An example is 1.d4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 e6 4.Nf3 Be7 5.0-0 0-0 6.c4 d6 7.Nc3 Nc6 8.d5! Ne5 9.Nd4 Nxc4 10.Nxe6.
But if White is a tempo down, eg the knight still on b1 or the king still on g1 this line does not work.
Another way to look at 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 Nc6 3.d4 is stating that White has offered his/her opponent reversed colours: 1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 and an early Nc3 will give the same position.
All in all it is White who has to justify the loss of tempo. At the moment I cannot think of any line in which it is not harmful.
What's more, ...Nc6 is in the Leningrad even more common.

BPaulsen wrote on 07/03/09 at 00:46:48:
The problem is that most white players are terrifically lazy when it comes to the Dutch.

BP is right - this has netted me quite a few points last 15 years.
  

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Re: Dutch Defence, early problems?
Reply #26 - 07/03/09 at 00:46:48
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BirdBrain wrote on 07/02/09 at 18:39:53:
Okay, and if they do play 3. d4!?, it doesn't look terrible to me...there are quite a few variations in the Dutch involving Nc6...What is the toughest line for Black to handle from 3. d4!?...I read about 3...e6 and Black seems to be able to shift into a potential IZ setup, or a Queen's Fianchetto, or maybe even a Semi-Leningrad if White allows...but the early ...c6 setups are stifled.  I don't see that as a big problem for Black, so why is 3. d4!? supposed to be such a monster then?  And if they don't play 3. d4, but play 3. e4 like we spoke about earlier, then Black simply plays ...e5 and hits back at the center.
So to me, Black must be flexible, but it seems he can survive, and can still commit to 1...f5 against 1. Nf3 even seeing that 2. d3 is an option.  
I will read some more on previous analysis posted on this site... Cool


For starters - 3. d4!? isn't overwhelmingly dangerous, it's just white's best try (3. e4 is extremely unimpressive).

Black likely has a route to equality, since the move Nc6 can't be bad. Perhaps I'm wrong and white can make black feel awkward somehow.

2. d3 is closer to a gimmick than a great idea anyway.

1. Nf3 players should opt for the main lines against the Dutch if they're looking for an advantage, since there's nothing to fear there if one is willing to learn the theory. The problem is that most white players are terrifically lazy when it comes to the Dutch.
  

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