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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C42-C43: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :) (Read 31703 times)
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Re: C42-C43: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #41 - 06/12/15 at 23:08:09
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After this game I waited for further games but till now I only found this earlier game:



Was there something in CC?
  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #40 - 06/03/10 at 04:18:48
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I have been trying to find this thread to resurrect for awhile now, especially after noticing that Bologan faced this 9...Bxa2 (7.Be3) line twice in a Blitz match in 2008, drawing both despite a rating advantage of more than 400 elo points.

A closer inspection of these games vindicates and confirms most of Nietzsche's analysis and evaluations posted almost 2yrs prior. Well done Nietzsche.

Has anyone made any further interesting discoveries in this line since the two games mentioned above.

Tops Smiley 
  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #39 - 11/06/08 at 00:27:23
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This is something I can agree with wholeheartedly.
  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #38 - 11/06/08 at 00:20:06
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Typos really are pretty unavoidable! Cheesy

And you seem to be saying that you think the exchange sac is playable at least.  I don't see any refutation of ...Bxa2.
So, this line would be my personal choice if I were White.
Like I said, I think it would be rather tough to face this Rb1 (and exchange sacrifice) over-the-board.  Especially since there is nothing out there on it!

Anyway, I think this ...Bxa2 move was over-estimated by some Black players because of the van Delft game or because their opponent's didn't know what hit them.  With proper play, I would still prefer to be white.  That said, Black may indeed have a practical edge if he knows what's going on and White doesn't.

Black gets a tactical, complicated position via ...Bxa2, and while I cannot find an edge for him, I might play it if I absolutely NEEDED to win the game. But ultimately, I still don't think its superior to the existing theory (for black).

Let's face it, while the white setup (after 5.Nc3) is rather simple, it is not at all easy for black to play for the win.  I think this setup is a rather decent way to play for white players both:
(A) happy with a draw
(B) wanting to avoid the mainlines with 5.d4.  


So, I guess both sides really need be aware of this ...Bxa2 idea, since these lines are not very intuitive or simple to spot.  I'm glad I studied it even though I no longer play the Petroff.

Nietzsche
  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #37 - 11/05/08 at 23:54:45
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I think 19...Ra2+ (you're right) 20.Kc1 (fortunately I am not the only one who's plagued by typos  Tongue) Ra1 21.Qe1 Rxb1+ 22.Kxb1 Qa3 unclear enough to call "better for White" premature.
  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #36 - 11/05/08 at 22:38:15
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RE: "Nothing at the moment, because I find it hard to evaluate 19...Ra1 iso 19...Qa5. "

Do you mean 19..Ra2?   Huh
(which is better for white after 20.Kb1 Ra1 21.Qe1)

because 19...Ra1 just hangs the rook.
  

"By some ardent enthusiasts Chess has been elevated into a science or an art. It is neither; but its principal characteristic seems to be what human nature mostly delights in - a fight." - Em. Lasker
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #35 - 11/05/08 at 10:10:58
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Nietzsche wrote on 11/04/08 at 05:03:56:
RE: "16...d5 is an obvious improvement here, that probably wins a tempo: 17.Kc1 (anything better here?)

Well...maybe!?
First of all, I think you're right about 16...d5 as an improvement.

But since white wants to ease the QS pressure, what about an exchange sacrifice?  Grin
I think this is rather interesting for white since he can get the bishop pair, a safer king, and probably another pawn.

17.Ra1 and black is almost forced into 17 ... Ba3+.  and now my idea is:
18. Rxa3!? Rxa3
19. Rb1!  Qa5!? (best?)
20. Kc1  ...

And I think White has good compensation here.  His king is now safe and I like the chances of those bishops coming to life.  
Also, I think black players could easily go wrong OTB with something  like 20...Rxc3 21.Bxc7! or even the horrible 20...Qxc3?? when I think he's just lost!

But even with best play after 20. Kc1 (which might be 20 ... Ra1  21. Qe1!), I'd prefer to be white.

So, what do you think of this exchange sacrifice? Huh

Nietzsche


Nothing at the moment, because I find it hard to evaluate 19...Ra1 iso 19...Qa5.
  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #34 - 11/04/08 at 05:26:41
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RE:  "The difference is 0-0 16.Bd3 (16.Be2 d5 17.Kc1 Ra1) d5 17.Kc1 Ra1 18.Qe1 Rxb1+ 19.Kxb1 and Black does not have the tempo-win Qa4."


Interesting...I didn't look at that.  
As black, I think I'd play 18...Bf6!? and try to avoid swapping rooks (to keep up the pressure).
Even still, I think white comfortably stays a little bit better in the line with 7.Be3.
So, I'd prefer to "hang" my bishop against the 7.Bf4 setup.

Nietzsche

p.s. - I mentioned the idea was "antithetical' only because I tend to try and find moves that are in the spirit of the opening.  
In general, I've found such moves tend to be better in the long haul --- I don't know why exactly--- but it's been my experience.  Clearly, that's not meant to be a big, knock-down argument or something; just a personal preference. Wink
  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #33 - 11/04/08 at 05:03:56
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RE: "16...d5 is an obvious improvement here, that probably wins a tempo: 17.Kc1 (anything better here?)

Well...maybe!?
First of all, I think you're right about 16...d6 as an improvement.

But since white wants to ease the QS pressure, what about an exchange sacrifice?  Grin
I think this is rather interesting for white since he can get the bishop pair, a safer king, and probably another pawn.

17.Ra1 and black is almost forced into 17 ... Ba3+.  and now my idea is:
18. Rxa3!? Rxa3
19. Rb1!  Qa5!? (best?)
20. Kc1  ...

And I think White has good compensation here.  His king is now safe and I like the chances of those bishops coming to life.  
Also, I think black players could easily go wrong OTB with something  like 20...Rxc3 21.Bxc7! or even the horrible 20...Qxc3?? when I think he's just lost!

But even with best play after 20. Kc1 (which might be 20 ... Ra1  21. Qe1!), I'd prefer to be white.

So, what do you think of this exchange sacrifice? Huh

Nietzsche
  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #32 - 11/04/08 at 02:14:05
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Quote:
However...15. Rb1!? is a simple but interesting novelty that would be my personal choice.  It avoids trouble and still leaves white a touch better after something like 15...O-O 16. Bd3 Ra2+ 17. Kc1 Ra1 18. Qd1 Bf6 19. Rxa1 Qxa1+ 20. Kd2 Bxc3+ 21. Ke2 Re8+ 22.Be3 Qa5 23. Kf1.)

16...d5 is an obvious improvement here, that probably wins a tempo: 17.Kc1 (anything better here?) Ra1 18.Qd1 Rxa1+ 19.Kxb1 Qa5 and Black's attack is not over yet. After 18.Qe1 Rxb1+ 19.Kxb1 Qa4 play is rather unclear.

Quote:
But 15.Bc4!? d5! 16. Bxc7!
(16. Bb3 Ba3+ 17. Kb1 Be7 18. Kb2 Ba3+ would be cowardly)

16... O-O!
(Toppy is right) Perhaps, but what is wrong with 16...b5 17.Bxd5 Rb5+ 18.Bb3 Qa3+ 19.Kb1 0-0 20.Qc1 Qa5 21.Qf4 g5 ?

17. Bxa5 Nxa5 18. Ne5 Ba3+ 19. Kb1 Nxc4 20. Nxc4 dxc4 21. Qd7 b5 22. Rd5?

and 22...Bb4 23.cxb4 c3 24.Rd3 Qa3 25.Rxc3 Qxc3 might be pretty strong as well.

Quote:
And so I recommend that white try the novelty:
---22.Rhe1!? ...
A simple developing and centralizing move that dares Black to take a pawn.

22. ... b4!? 23. Qd5! Qb8

Black might have 23...Qa6 and 24.Qd6 Qa6 25.Qd5 Qa6 repeats. White can avoid the draw with 25.cxb4 Bxb4 26.Qxb4 Rb8 27.c3 h6 but it will be a hard fight. A better try might be 24.Re5 bxc3 25.Qb5 though this transposes to your main line.

Quote:
not to mention its a bit antithetical to the Russian Defense.

A bit silly argument, so it's a good idea not to mention it. Overall excellent analysis, that will encourage fans of Black's play.

Quote:
(BTW: if 7. Be3 (I think white's extra control over d4 makes the ...Bxa2 idea less appealing.)
7. ...Nc6 8. Qd2 Be6 9. O-O-O Bxa2?! 10. b3 a5 11. Kb2 a4 12. Kxa2 axb3+ 13. Kxb3 Ra5 14. Kb2 Qa8 15. Rb1 and White stays on top).

The difference is 0-0 16.Bd3 (16.Be2 d5 17.Kc1 Ra1) d5 17.Kc1 Ra1 18.Qe1 Rxb1+ 19.Kxb1 and Black does not have the tempo-win Qa4.
  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #31 - 11/03/08 at 01:34:35
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PART II:

It's time to get back to our 15. Bc4!?   - which I think is well met by:
15... d5!

16. Bxc7!

(16. Bb3 Ba3+ 17. Kb1 Be7 18. Kb2 Ba3+ would be cowardly)

16... O-O! (Toppy is right)

17. Bxa5 Nxa5
18. Ne5 ...

(18. Bxd5?? Nc4+ 19. Bxc4 Qa3+ 20.Kb1 Ra8 and sign it 0-1)

18... Ba3+
19. Kb1 Nxc4
20. Nxc4 dxc4
21. Qd7 b5
---22. Rd5? ...


this was the amateur game (Berbatov-Lambert 2008) but I think it is not best thanks to:
22. ... b4!
23. Qb5 bxc3   (23...Rb8 will probably just transpose)
24. Qa5 Rb8+
25. Ka2 Qb7!    now Black might just be winning after this shot...
26. Rb5 Qxb5
27. Qxb5 Rxb5
28. Kxa3 Rb2
 (and white is effectively a king down in this ending.)





And so I recommend that white try the novelty:
---22.Rhe1!? ...
A simple developing and centralizing move that dares Black to take a pawn.

22. ... b4!? probably the best.

(Black should probably avoid 22...Qxg2?!  since 23. Qa7! b4  white can double the rooks and his play continues, while the black bishop is out of play (and the black queenside action is frozen).  Alternatively, White can rush his kingside pawns up to try and denude the Black king and go for the throat.  
Either way, White has all the play here, with active pieces and multiple ways to play for the win.  I would hate this position as Black.

23. Qd5! Qb8
24. Re5 bxc3+
25. Qb5 Qa8
26. Qa5! ...


(26. Qxc4 Bb2 27. Qa2 Qxg2 is unclear, but I think allows black too much play)

And now Black might try something like:
26.  ... Qb8+?
27. Rb5 Qe8
28. Rb7 Qe2
29. Rd8 ...
but now white is really much better.

So, I prefer:
26. ... Rb8+
27. Ka2 Bf8!
 ("A man's got to know his limitations" - GM Dirty Harry)
28. Qxa8  Rxa8+
29. Kb1  Rb8+    
30. Ka1  Ra8+
31. Kb1  Rb8+

and shake hands.

Another, simpler,  try is:
---22. Qd5!? Qa5  (...Qa6!? might be better)
23. Rhe1 Ra8
24. Qc6 Bf8
25. Kc1 Ra6
26. Qc8 Ra8

With a probable repetition of moves.

Still I don't think ...Bxa2 is Black's best try in the original position; not to mention its a bit antithetical to the Russian Defense.
Wink

However, I am absolutely certain that 22.Rd5? is a mistake.
As White I'd prefer either 22.Rhe1 or 22.Qd5.
But, personally, I would avoid all this with either 14.Rb1 or 15.Rb1.  Perhaps deviate even earlier with 9.Bd3 and avoid the mess after ...Bxa2.

Anyway, I'm sure there's room to improve this analysis (it goes up to move 30 afterall), but I thought I'd share my findings today with other chess enthusiasts.  I really enjoyed analyzing the lines after 12.Ra1 since Black has many interesting attacking ideas.  Its good fun, but from a theoretical standpoint, I'm afraid it just doesn't matter.
Alas!

Cheers,
Nietzsche
« Last Edit: 11/03/08 at 21:39:08 by Nietzsche »  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #30 - 11/03/08 at 00:58:50
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I took some time today to look into this ...Bxa2 idea for Black.
Unfortunately, I don't think it promises more than the normal and "safe" idea of ...Qd7, ...a6.
 In fact, a well-prepared White player really should come away with an edge.  Anyway...here is some analysis for those who care;  I'll post it in parts

Nietzsche

p.s. - please forgive any formatting mistakes.
======================================

1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 Nf6
3. Nxe5 d6
4. Nf3 Nxe4
5. Nc3 Nxc3
6. dxc3 Be7
7. Bf4 .
.
.

(BTW: if 7. Be3 (I think white's extra control over d4 makes the ...Bxa2 idea less appealing.)
7. ...Nc6
8. Qd2 Be6
9. O-O-O Bxa2 ?!
10. b3 a5
11. Kb2 a4
12. Kxa2 axb3+
13. Kxb3 Ra5
14. Kb2 Qa8
15. Rb1  ...   and white stays on top).

7. ... Nc6
8. Qd2 Be6
9. O-O-O Bxa2!?

(note: 9. Bd3!? safely avoids the issue if white so desires)


10. b3 a5
11. Kb2 a4
12. Kxa2!...
picking up the gauntlet is best.

For example, a fun line is:  
12. Ra1 axb3
13. cxb3 Bxb3
14. Rxa8 Qxa8
15. Kxb3 Qa1!  
16. Qc1 Na5+
17. Kc2...


of course not 17. Kb4?? d5+ 18. Kb5 Qa2!
White can now pick his poison:
(I)  19. Bxc7  Nc4! 20. Bxc4 Qa6#
(II) 19. Qd2 Qb3+ 20. Kxa5 Qa3+ 21. Kb5 Qa6#


17. ... Qa4+
18. Kd3 ...


(18. Kb2? Qb3+ 19. Ka1 Bf6! and black is better)
(18. Kb1 O-O! is rather unclear, though I prefer black)

18. ... O-O
19. Be3 d5!?  and black has c4 for the knight, e-file for the rook, a menacing queenside pawn brigade and that weak white monarch to harass as well.


(Note that White is even worse after 19. Be2? Qc4+ and 20. Kc2 Qxe2+  -or - 20. Ke3 Qe6+ 21. Kd3 Qf5+ 22. Ke3 Re8 23. Nd4 Bh4+ 24. Kd2 Qxf4+ 25. Kc2 Qxf2.)


12. ... axb3+
13. Kxb3 ...


(of course 13. Kb2? is bad due to 13...Ra2+ and now something like:
14. Kxb3 Qa8
15. Kc4 ...

(if 15. Bb5 Qa3+ 16. Kc4 Qc5+ and white loses with either:
--- 17. Kd3 Qxb5+ 18.Ke3 g5!
--- 17. Kb3 Ra3+ 18. Kb2 Qxb5+ 19. Kxa3 O-O  (and mate via ...Ra8)


15. ... Qa6+
16. Kd5 Qa4!
this clever move wins the game for black.

13... Ra5

(13... O-O? 14. Bd3 Bf6 15. Ra1 Na5+ 16. Kb2)

14. Kb2 ...
(14. Rb1!? Qa8 15. Kb2! d5 16. Kc1 looks good for white)

14. ... Qa8
15. Bc4!? ...


(15. Qe3 is playable, but after 15...O-O! 16. Rb1!? Bf6 (and ...d5 to come) I prefer Black.)

However...15. Rb1!? is a simple but interesting novelty that would be my personal choice.  It avoids trouble and still leaves white a touch better after something like 15...O-O 16. Bd3
Ra2+ 17. Kc1 Ra1 18. Qd1 Bf6 19. Rxa1 Qxa1+ 20. Kd2 Bxc3+ 21. Ke2 Re8+ 22.Be3 Qa5 23. Kf1
.)

But 15.Bc4!? is the critical try for this thread....see next post.
« Last Edit: 11/03/08 at 04:21:26 by Nietzsche »  

"By some ardent enthusiasts Chess has been elevated into a science or an art. It is neither; but its principal characteristic seems to be what human nature mostly delights in - a fight." - Em. Lasker
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #29 - 10/26/08 at 20:07:59
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chessbase had a article on the rybka opening software, has an interesting line on the petroff, involving an interesting piece sac.

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=4964

  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #28 - 10/08/08 at 00:05:15
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TopNotch wrote on 10/07/08 at 22:36:25:
Kaziglub wrote on 10/04/08 at 19:37:57:
RandomPatzer wrote on 10/04/08 at 10:32:00:
16. Bxc7 b6 17.Bxd5 Ba3+ 18.Kb1 0-0 19.Qd3! intending 19...Bc5+ 20.Kc1 Ba3+ 21.Kd2
16. Bxc7 Rc5 17.Bxd5 0-0 18.Ra1
16. Bxc7 dxc4 17.Bxa5 Qxa5 18.Qd7+ Kf8 19.Qxb7
16. Bxc7 Ra7 17.Qxd5

all look completely winning for white to me. What am I missing?

something guy, come on !  Smiley


1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nf3 Nxe4 5.Nc3 Nxc3 6.dxc3 Be7 7.Bf4 Nc6 8.Qd2 Be6 9.0-0-0 Bxa2 10.b3 a5 11.Kb2 a4 12.Kxa2 axb3+ 13.Kxb3 Ra5 14.Kb2 Qa8 15.Bc4 d5 16.Bxc7 0-0! 17.Bxa5 Nxa5 18.Ne5 Ba3+ 19.Kb1 Nxc4 20.Nxc4 dxc4 21.Qd7 b5 22.Rd5 b4 23.Qb5 bxc3 24.Qa5 Rb8+ 25.Ka2 Qb7! 26.Rb5 (26.Kxa3 Qb2+ 27.Ka4 Qa2 Mate; 26.Qxa3 Qxd5 27.Qxc3 Qb7-+) 26...Qxb5 27.Qxb5 Rxb5 28.Kxa3 Rb2 29.Re1 f5 30.Re2 Kf7 And Black is clearly better.

That's what you are missing.

The ball would now appear to be in White's court, but as a supporter of the White side in this variation, I can confide that there is plenty room for improvement. Indeed I have a few such improvements handy, just waiting to be sprung on those foolhardy enough to enter this suicidal pawn grab line.

Sadly few players have the cojones to play this way in OTB chess.

Toppy
Smiley  


maybe one day  Smiley
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #27 - 10/08/08 at 00:00:03
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TopNotch wrote on 10/07/08 at 22:36:25:
Indeed I have a few such improvements handy, just waiting to be sprung on those foolhardy enough to enter this suicidal pawn grab line.

Sadly few players have the cojones to play this way in OTB chess.

Toppy[/b][/color] Smiley  


Try to find IM Van Delft. Will be interesting.
  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #26 - 10/07/08 at 22:49:10
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TopNotch wrote on 10/07/08 at 22:36:25:
Kaziglub wrote on 10/04/08 at 19:37:57:
RandomPatzer wrote on 10/04/08 at 10:32:00:
16. Bxc7 b6 17.Bxd5 Ba3+ 18.Kb1 0-0 19.Qd3! intending 19...Bc5+ 20.Kc1 Ba3+ 21.Kd2
16. Bxc7 Rc5 17.Bxd5 0-0 18.Ra1
16. Bxc7 dxc4 17.Bxa5 Qxa5 18.Qd7+ Kf8 19.Qxb7
16. Bxc7 Ra7 17.Qxd5

all look completely winning for white to me. What am I missing?

something guy, come on !  Smiley


1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nf3 Nxe4 5.Nc3 Nxc3 6.dxc3 Be7 7.Bf4 Nc6 8.Qd2 Be6 9.0-0-0 Bxa2 10.b3 a5 11.Kb2 a4 12.Kxa2 axb3+ 13.Kxb3 Ra5 14.Kb2 Qa8 15.Bc4 d5 16.Bxc7 0-0! 17.Bxa5 Nxa5 18.Ne5 Ba3+ 19.Kb1 Nxc4 20.Nxc4 dxc4 21.Qd7 b5 22.Rd5 b4 23.Qb5 bxc3 24.Qa5 Rb8+ 25.Ka2 Qb7! 26.Rb5 (26.Kxa3 Qb2+ 27.Ka4 Qa2 Mate; 26.Qxa3 Qxd5 27.Qxc3 Qb7-+) 26...Qxb5 27.Qxb5 Rxb5 28.Kxa3 Rb2 29.Re1 f5 30.Re2 Kf7 And Black is clearly better.

That's what you are missing.

The ball would now appear to be in White's court, but as a supporter of the White side in this variation, I can confide that there is plenty room for improvement. Indeed I have a few such improvements handy, just waiting to be sprung on those foolhardy enough to enter this suicidal pawn grab line.

Sadly few players have the cojones to play this way in OTB chess.

Toppy
Smiley  


There are some of us.  Smiley
  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #25 - 10/07/08 at 22:36:25
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Kaziglub wrote on 10/04/08 at 19:37:57:
RandomPatzer wrote on 10/04/08 at 10:32:00:
16. Bxc7 b6 17.Bxd5 Ba3+ 18.Kb1 0-0 19.Qd3! intending 19...Bc5+ 20.Kc1 Ba3+ 21.Kd2
16. Bxc7 Rc5 17.Bxd5 0-0 18.Ra1
16. Bxc7 dxc4 17.Bxa5 Qxa5 18.Qd7+ Kf8 19.Qxb7
16. Bxc7 Ra7 17.Qxd5

all look completely winning for white to me. What am I missing?

something guy, come on !  Smiley


1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nf3 Nxe4 5.Nc3 Nxc3 6.dxc3 Be7 7.Bf4 Nc6 8.Qd2 Be6 9.0-0-0 Bxa2 10.b3 a5 11.Kb2 a4 12.Kxa2 axb3+ 13.Kxb3 Ra5 14.Kb2 Qa8 15.Bc4 d5 16.Bxc7 0-0! 17.Bxa5 Nxa5 18.Ne5 Ba3+ 19.Kb1 Nxc4 20.Nxc4 dxc4 21.Qd7 b5 22.Rd5 b4 23.Qb5 bxc3 24.Qa5 Rb8+ 25.Ka2 Qb7! 26.Rb5 (26.Kxa3 Qb2+ 27.Ka4 Qa2 Mate; 26.Qxa3 Qxd5 27.Qxc3 Qb7-+) 26...Qxb5 27.Qxb5 Rxb5 28.Kxa3 Rb2 29.Re1 f5 30.Re2 Kf7 And Black is clearly better.

That's what you are missing.

The ball would now appear to be in White's court, but as a supporter of the White side in this variation, I can confide that there is plenty room for improvement. Indeed I have a few such improvements handy, just waiting to be sprung on those foolhardy enough to enter this suicidal pawn grab line.

Sadly few players have the cojones to play this way in OTB chess.

Toppy
Smiley  
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #24 - 10/07/08 at 18:57:55
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Strategy_Rules wrote on 10/07/08 at 10:09:39:
If Kramnik chooses 2..Nf6, maybe Anand will play the 4.Nc4 line !?

I don't think that 4.Nc4 is really threatening, but will Kramnik play 2...Nf6? I 'm not so sure after all...
Or maybe 2...Nf6 3.d4!? will be discussed...
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #23 - 10/07/08 at 10:09:39
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If Kramnik chooses 2..Nf6, maybe Anand will play the 4.Nc4 line !?
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #22 - 10/04/08 at 19:42:38
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One line is 16.Bxc7 b6!? (not the best i think) 17.Bxd5 Rb5+! 18.Bb3 Qa3+ 19. Kb1 0-0 (with the idea Ra8 -+) 20. Qc1! Qa7 21.Qb2 Ra8, white seems better but nothing winning black want to play Ra5 with very good compensations.
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #21 - 10/04/08 at 19:37:57
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RandomPatzer wrote on 10/04/08 at 10:32:00:
16. Bxc7 b6 17.Bxd5 Ba3+ 18.Kb1 0-0 19.Qd3! intending 19...Bc5+ 20.Kc1 Ba3+ 21.Kd2
16. Bxc7 Rc5 17.Bxd5 0-0 18.Ra1
16. Bxc7 dxc4 17.Bxa5 Qxa5 18.Qd7+ Kf8 19.Qxb7
16. Bxc7 Ra7 17.Qxd5

all look completely winning for white to me. What am I missing?

something guy, come on !  Smiley
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #20 - 10/04/08 at 10:32:00
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16. Bxc7 b6 17.Bxd5 Ba3+ 18.Kb1 0-0 19.Qd3! intending 19...Bc5+ 20.Kc1 Ba3+ 21.Kd2
16. Bxc7 Rc5 17.Bxd5 0-0 18.Ra1
16. Bxc7 dxc4 17.Bxa5 Qxa5 18.Qd7+ Kf8 19.Qxb7
16. Bxc7 Ra7 17.Qxd5

all look completely winning for white to me. What am I missing?
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #19 - 10/04/08 at 08:51:31
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MNb wrote on 10/03/08 at 15:23:56:
Kleijn,C - Van Delft,M [C42]
NEDchT 0708 Meesterklasse KNSB (7), 2008

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nf3 Nxe4 5.Nc3 Nxc3 6.dxc3 Be7 7.Bf4

7.Be3 Nc6 8.Qd2 Be6 9.0-0-0 Bxa2 10.b3 a5 11.Kb2 a4 12.Kxa2 (12.Ra1 axb3 13.cxb3 Bxb3 14.Rxa8 Qxa8 15.Kxb3 Qa1 16.Qc1 Na5+ 17.Kc2 Qa4+ 18.Kd3 0-0) 12...axb3+ 13.Kxb3 Ra5 14.Bc4 Qa8 15.Kb2 d5 16.Bxd5 Ba3+ 17.Kb1 Bd6µ

7...Nc6 8.Qd2 Be6 9.0-0-0 Bxa2 10.b3
10.c4 0-0 11.Qc3 Qc8 12.Rd5 (12.Qa3 Bxc4 13.Bxc4 d5-+) 12...a5 13.Qa3 Nb4³

10...a5 11.Kb2 a4 12.Ra1
12.Kxa2 axb3+ 13.Kxb3 Ra5 14.Bc4 Qa8 15.Kb2 d5 16.Bxc7 b6 17.Bxd5+-

12...axb3 13.cxb3 Bxb3 14.Rxa8 Qxa8 15.Kxb3 Qa1 16.Qc1 Na5+ 17.Kc2 Qa4+ 18.Kd3 0-0 19.Be3 Bf6 20.Nd2 Ra8 21.Ke2 Nc4 22.Nxc4 Qxc4+ 23.Kf3 Qd5+ ½-½

drkodos wrote on 10/03/08 at 15:16:07:
and you can easily see for yourself why the Bishop cannot be captured with the King!


Apparently not me, but I admit that I haven't tried very hard. Currrently I don't have time to delve into this. So if Drkodos is so nice to help me see the obvious?!


16.Bxc7 is a good move in the 12.Kxa2 variation but not sufficient for an advantage to white. 12.Ra1 is, i think, definitively the move.
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #18 - 10/03/08 at 20:57:48
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MNb wrote on 10/03/08 at 19:55:29:
drkodos wrote on 10/03/08 at 17:55:08:
In your notes to 12 Ra1 I think perhaps after 12.Kxb2 axb3 13. Kb3 a good move for Black is 13. .... Na5+ ! I thinks it is better than the rook lift.  Where is the White King going?  Look at position of the White Queen....there is also a devastating fork of the royals looming on the horizon.  


Equally quickly: 13...Na5+ 14.Kb2 (only move) 0-0 15.Rb1 and the King finds a safe square on c1.



You are correct.    Smiley   But I give a  Cry for my blindfold skilz.

I still like Black's chances here with the exposed White King, though.   This is a lame excuse of course, but it took me a while to "see" the f1 Bishop controlling c4 square.  


  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #17 - 10/03/08 at 19:55:29
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drkodos wrote on 10/03/08 at 17:55:08:
In your notes to 12 Ra1 I think perhaps after 12.Kxb2 axb3 13. Kb3 a good move for Black is 13. .... Na5+ ! I thinks it is better than the rook lift.  Where is the White King going?  Look at position of the White Queen....there is also a devastating fork of the royals looming on the horizon.  


Equally quickly: 13...Na5+ 14.Kb2 (only move) 0-0 15.Rb1 and the King finds a safe square on c1.
  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #16 - 10/03/08 at 18:13:14
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About Anand-Kramnik match I think it is going to one of the most boring matches ever played. Both players are out of shape and Petroff is more or less a forced draw at high level. Anand has played Nc3 varation before and so has Topalov so its a good move.
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #15 - 10/03/08 at 17:55:08
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MNb wrote on 10/03/08 at 15:23:56:
Kleijn,C - Van Delft,M [C42]
NEDchT 0708 Meesterklasse KNSB (7), 2008

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nf3 Nxe4 5.Nc3 Nxc3 6.dxc3 Be7 7.Bf4

7.Be3 Nc6 8.Qd2 Be6 9.0-0-0 Bxa2 10.b3 a5 11.Kb2 a4 12.Kxa2 (12.Ra1 axb3 13.cxb3 Bxb3 14.Rxa8 Qxa8 15.Kxb3 Qa1 16.Qc1 Na5+ 17.Kc2 Qa4+ 18.Kd3 0-0) 12...axb3+ 13.Kxb3 Ra5 14.Bc4 Qa8 15.Kb2 d5 16.Bxd5 Ba3+ 17.Kb1 Bd6µ

7...Nc6 8.Qd2 Be6 9.0-0-0 Bxa2 10.b3
10.c4 0-0 11.Qc3 Qc8 12.Rd5 (12.Qa3 Bxc4 13.Bxc4 d5-+) 12...a5 13.Qa3 Nb4³

10...a5 11.Kb2 a4 12.Ra1
12.Kxa2 axb3+ 13.Kxb3 Ra5 14.Bc4 Qa8 15.Kb2 d5 16.Bxc7 b6 17.Bxd5+-

12...axb3 13.cxb3 Bxb3 14.Rxa8 Qxa8 15.Kxb3 Qa1 16.Qc1 Na5+ 17.Kc2 Qa4+ 18.Kd3 0-0 19.Be3 Bf6 20.Nd2 Ra8 21.Ke2 Nc4 22.Nxc4 Qxc4+ 23.Kf3 Qd5+ ½-½

drkodos wrote on 10/03/08 at 15:16:07:
and you can easily see for yourself why the Bishop cannot be captured with the King!


Apparently not me, but I admit that I haven't tried very hard. Currrently I don't have time to delve into this. So if Drkodos is so nice to help me see the obvious?!



In your notes to 12 Ra1 I think perhaps after 12.Kxb2 axb3 13. Kb3 a good move for Black is 13. .... Na5+ ! I thinks it is better than the rook lift.  Where is the White King going?  Look at position of the White Queen....there is also a devastating fork of the royals looming on the horizon.  

Currently sitting in cafe without board in front of me, so forgive the inexactitude because my blindfold skills are not that great.
  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #14 - 10/03/08 at 15:29:50
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wow!  thank you very much drkodos and MNb for the reply. that is quite the line. never seen it before and I've played over many games in the Nc3 line...

interesting...
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #13 - 10/03/08 at 15:23:56
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Kleijn,C - Van Delft,M [C42]
NEDchT 0708 Meesterklasse KNSB (7), 2008

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nf3 Nxe4 5.Nc3 Nxc3 6.dxc3 Be7 7.Bf4

7.Be3 Nc6 8.Qd2 Be6 9.0-0-0 Bxa2 10.b3 a5 11.Kb2 a4 12.Kxa2 (12.Ra1 axb3 13.cxb3 Bxb3 14.Rxa8 Qxa8 15.Kxb3 Qa1 16.Qc1 Na5+ 17.Kc2 Qa4+ 18.Kd3 0-0) 12...axb3+ 13.Kxb3 Ra5 14.Bc4 Qa8 15.Kb2 d5 16.Bxd5 Ba3+ 17.Kb1 Bd6µ

7...Nc6 8.Qd2 Be6 9.0-0-0 Bxa2 10.b3
10.c4 0-0 11.Qc3 Qc8 12.Rd5 (12.Qa3 Bxc4 13.Bxc4 d5-+) 12...a5 13.Qa3 Nb4³

10...a5 11.Kb2 a4 12.Ra1
12.Kxa2 axb3+ 13.Kxb3 Ra5 14.Bc4 Qa8 15.Kb2 d5 16.Bxc7 b6 17.Bxd5+-

12...axb3 13.cxb3 Bxb3 14.Rxa8 Qxa8 15.Kxb3 Qa1 16.Qc1 Na5+ 17.Kc2 Qa4+ 18.Kd3 0-0 19.Be3 Bf6 20.Nd2 Ra8 21.Ke2 Nc4 22.Nxc4 Qxc4+ 23.Kf3 Qd5+ ½-½

drkodos wrote on 10/03/08 at 15:16:07:
and you can easily see for yourself why the Bishop cannot be captured with the King!


Apparently not me, but I admit that I haven't tried very hard. Currrently I don't have time to delve into this. So if Drkodos is so nice to help me see the obvious?!
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #12 - 10/03/08 at 15:16:07
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John Hall wrote on 10/03/08 at 15:08:32:
drkodos wrote on 10/02/08 at 15:30:35:
ANDREW BRETT wrote on 10/01/08 at 17:48:41:
new in chess's latest yearbook looks at 5nc3 in detail - both be3/bf4 with black trying lines with bxa2 and also chukky's qf6 idea . hope that assists !



I'm a bit bummed that the Bxa2 cat is now out of the bag.  Scored a few points with that, and always enjoyed the look of bewilderment opponents had when they thought I was Hang-Fischering the Bishop.



If you don't mind (since the cat is already out of the bag!)

Could you please point me to a sample game which illustrates the successful execution of the Bxa2 idea?





Kleijn-Van Delft  2008   

Not the highest level game, but good enough for the ideology.  I believe 12. Ra1 is almost forced and you can easily see for yourself why the Bishop cannot be captured with the King!  There are some other games in the NIC YB survey, but I currently do not have access to them.
  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #11 - 10/03/08 at 15:08:32
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drkodos wrote on 10/02/08 at 15:30:35:
ANDREW BRETT wrote on 10/01/08 at 17:48:41:
new in chess's latest yearbook looks at 5nc3 in detail - both be3/bf4 with black trying lines with bxa2 and also chukky's qf6 idea . hope that assists !



I'm a bit bummed that the Bxa2 cat is now out of the bag.  Scored a few points with that, and always enjoyed the look of bewilderment opponents had when they thought I was Hang-Fischering the Bishop.



If you don't mind (since the cat is already out of the bag!)

Could you please point me to a sample game which illustrates the successful execution of the Bxa2 idea?


  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #10 - 10/02/08 at 23:44:52
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drkodos wrote on 10/02/08 at 15:30:35:
I'm a bit bummed that the Bxa2 cat is now out of the bag.  Scored a few points with that, and always enjoyed the look of bewilderment opponents had when they thought I was Hang-Fischering the Bishop.


Have you guys sent a cordial thanks to Merijn van Delft already?
  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #9 - 10/02/08 at 15:32:28
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drkodos wrote on 10/02/08 at 15:30:35:
ANDREW BRETT wrote on 10/01/08 at 17:48:41:
new in chess's latest yearbook looks at 5nc3 in detail - both be3/bf4 with black trying lines with bxa2 and also chukky's qf6 idea . hope that assists !



I'm a bit bummed that the Bxa2 cat is now out of the bag.  Scored a few points with that, and always enjoyed the look of bewilderment opponents had when they thought I was Hang-Fischering the Bishop.


me too!!  Angry
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #8 - 10/02/08 at 15:30:35
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ANDREW BRETT wrote on 10/01/08 at 17:48:41:
new in chess's latest yearbook looks at 5nc3 in detail - both be3/bf4 with black trying lines with bxa2 and also chukky's qf6 idea . hope that assists !



I'm a bit bummed that the Bxa2 cat is now out of the bag.  Scored a few points with that, and always enjoyed the look of bewilderment opponents had when they thought I was Hang-Fischering the Bishop.

  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #7 - 10/01/08 at 17:48:41
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new in chess's latest yearbook looks at 5nc3 in detail - both be3/bf4 with black trying lines with bxa2 and also chukky's qf6 idea . hope that assists !
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #6 - 09/30/08 at 13:19:23
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I accidently saw the following game from the world computer chess championship 2008:

Rybka - The Baron
1. e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nc4 Nxe4 5.Nc3 Nxc3 6.bxc3 g6 7.d4 Bg7 8.Bd3 o-o
9.o-o Nc6 10.Qf3 Re8 11.Bf4 Bd7 12.Ne3 Na5 13.Qg3 Bc6 14.h4 Be4 15.h5 Qd7 16.Rae1 Qc6
17.h6 Bxd3 18.cxd3 Bf6 19.c4 Bxd4 20.Nd5 Rxe1 21.Rxe1 Qc5 22.Re7 Nc6 23. Rxc7 Qa5 24.Qh4 Qxa2
25.Nf6 Kh8 26.Rxf7 Qa1 27.Kh2 Bxf6 28.Qxf6 Qxf6 29.Rxf6 Kg8 30.Rxd6 Rf8 31.Kg3 a5 32.Bc1 a4
33.f3 Rd8 34.Rxd8 Nxd8 35.Kf4 Kf7 36.d4 g5 37.Ke4 Ne6 38.Kd3 Kg6 39.d5 Nc5 40.Kc3 ........
1-0

What do you think of the line white chose in this game ? Chances for an advantage ?

(I assume the variation with Nc4 was in their book and was not played by Rybka already "thinking")
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #5 - 09/27/08 at 17:44:39
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Ptero wrote on 09/27/08 at 13:41:27:
Strategy_Rules wrote on 09/25/08 at 13:36:12:
I started to learn this defence a little and tried it out in some blitz games already. I just wonder if you would consider the modern line 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nf3 Nxe4 5.Nc3 as really dangerous for black or not.


I think that the acid test for this whole 5.Nc3 line will arrive very soon at the Anand-Kramnik match. Will be interesting to watch.


I do not think Anand will play the Nc3 line.  There are some newer ideas in the 3.d4 lines that offer better chances for white advantage and I suspect these will be seen instead.
  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #4 - 09/27/08 at 13:41:27
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Strategy_Rules wrote on 09/25/08 at 13:36:12:
I started to learn this defence a little and tried it out in some blitz games already. I just wonder if you would consider the modern line 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nf3 Nxe4 5.Nc3 as really dangerous for black or not.


I think that the acid test for this whole 5.Nc3 line will arrive very soon at the Anand-Kramnik match. Will be interesting to watch.
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #3 - 09/26/08 at 20:20:12
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hicetnunc wrote on 09/25/08 at 14:08:18:
From a practical point of view, 5.Nc3 is dangerous for black, if only because white's game is easy to play.

So knowing some defensive resources as black may be useful.


One of the easiest draws to hold as Black in all of Chess.  And easy for Black to play for a win if White neglects the Queenside.  I've a plus score OTB in this line as Black and have yet to lose against it.

I feel the Cochrane (3.Nxf7) is a bigger challenge to Black to keep the defenses together than anything I've seen from the 5.Nc3 lines.  Yes, it is theoretically better for Black, but the path is a narrow and sharp one with cavernous precipicies (sp?!) on all sides.
  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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ANDREW BRETT
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #2 - 09/25/08 at 14:46:43
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It can be dangerous with kings castled on opposite sides see Anand and Svidler v Kramnik . But if black castles queenside to white's queenside- there isn't that much that any petroff defender shouldn't be able to cope with.
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
Reply #1 - 09/25/08 at 14:08:18
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From a practical point of view, 5.Nc3 is dangerous for black, if only because white's game is easy to play.

So knowing some defensive resources as black may be useful.
  

43 yo, 2000 elo
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C42-C43: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6! :)
09/25/08 at 13:36:12
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I started to learn this defence a little and tried it out in some blitz games already. I just wonder if you would consider the modern line 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nf3 Nxe4 5.Nc3 as really dangerous for black or not.
« Last Edit: 08/01/11 at 21:20:58 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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