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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Czech Benoni: key lines and move-order subtleties (Read 38919 times)
TonyRo
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Re: Czech Benoni: key lines and move-order subtleties
Reply #27 - 07/05/12 at 12:56:34
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Hi Michael,

My computer seems to think that 11...Qd7 12.Nh2 Bxe2 13.Qxe2 Bd8 14.Bg5! is stronger, e.g.

14...Ne8 15.Bxd8 Qxd8 16.h5 Ne7 17.0-0 h6 18.f4

14...h6 15.Bxf6 Bxf6 16.Qg4!? Qxg4 17.Nxg4 Bd8 18.Ne3 Ne7 19.Nb5 Ba5+ 20.Ke2 Rfd8 and now moves like 21.h5, 21.Raf1!?, and 21.Kd3!? seem slightly better for White.

Black never seems to be equal, or has anything to look forward to, but he's never that much worse either.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Czech Benoni: key lines and move-order subtleties
Reply #26 - 07/05/12 at 08:58:57
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Very interesting Tony -- thanks.

In the 9 ...0-0 10 h4!? Bg4 11 Be2 line, my experience with similar Nimzo Defence/Tango positions suggests Black should consider 11 ...Qd7. Then after 12 Nh2 (12 Ng5 Be2 13 Qe2 h6 is less dangerous?) Be2 13 Qe2 something like 13 ...Bd8 14 h5 Ne7 15 h6 g6 16 0-0 Ba5 (a la Old Indian!) might be playable? I guess Black has to watch for f2-f4, but obviously in some positions that can be double-edged, and in others plain bad! Wonder how much work Finegold has done on 9 ...0-0 -- it would be interesting to know. Another threat to it might be 10 Qe2!? and a quick Nd1/Ne3?

I suppose Black can also tweak his move orders, and start with say 9 ...a6 (10 a4 b6) then ...Bd7, possibly following with ...Qc8 and ...h5 but keeping open the option of just ...0-0 instead. Don't know what difference if any that makes. Of course, in all these lines White as well as Black has to manoeuvre patiently and alertly and that can be a pain over the board, as many have found!

Anyone know (without giving away all the contents!) what Richard Palliser's book makes to these lines (or 7 ...0-0 8 h3 a6 9 Qe2)?


  
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TonyRo
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Re: Czech Benoni: key lines and move-order subtleties
Reply #25 - 07/05/12 at 03:18:58
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[quote]Thanks for citing this game elsewhere, Markovich -- I [i]guess[/i] you may be referring here to the game Black won after 12 ...0-0!? (N?). Obviously White went wrong near the end in that game, but what about the opening? The game Donner—Keene went 10 …Bd7 (iso 10 …a6), and continued 11 a3 a6 12 Ng5!? Rb8 13 Qe2 Qc7 14 Kf1 Nh7 15 Nh7 Rh7 16 Kg2 with some White edge. So I’m wondering if White should play 11 Ng5 by analogy and follow the same plan (which might include Nd1/Ne3/Nf5?). Of course Black doesn’t have to go …Nh7, but has he better (in either position/comparable positions)?[/quote]

I launched into a fairly extensive analysis of the h3 Czech Benoni lines a year and a half or two years ago, under the influence of my chess hero Larsen. The Ng5 plan comes up a lot, and [b]11.Ng5![/b] indeed seems strongest, and to the point. To me, White looks better after [b]11...0-0 12.0-0 Bd7 13.a4[/b], as I can't find a reasonable plan for Black. Preparing to open the b-file looks logical, but something like [b]13...Rb8 14.a5 b6 15.axb6 Rxb6 [/b]allows White to play Bc2 and b3, followed by working up some kingside play, e.g. [b]16.Qe2 Qc7 17.Nd1 Rfb8 18.Bd2 Qc8 19.Bc2! Ng4 20.b3![/b], when the plan of playing Ne3-f5, followed shortly by g4, looks to bring White a large advantage. Anyway, 9...h5 when White's already played g3 seems dubious to me - I don't get it.

[quote]A second plan for Black (after 6 Bd3 Nbd7 7 Nf3 Nf8 8 h3 Ng6 9 g3) is to play 9 …0-0!? (iso 9 ..h5), as played by Finegold. Then Stohl gives 10 Bd2 Bd7 11 Qe2 a6 12 h4 as slightly better for White (as mentioned above), but this doesn’t look too terrible(?). How I wonder should Black react on 10 Kf1 (iso 10 Bd2), plan Kg2, Qe2 and evt Nd1/Ne3/Nf5? [/quote]

Back then, [b]10.h4![/b] bothered me quite a bit. Stopping h5 with [b]10...Bg4[/b] is dubious on account of [b]11.Be2![/b], when Ng5 is on the cards, offering a favorable minor piece exchange, e.g. [b]11...a6 12.Ng5! Bxe2 13.Qxe2 h6 14.Nf3 Re8[/b] [i](14...h5 15.Ng5 followed by Nd1-e3-f5 seems bad for Black as well)[/i] [b]15.h5 Nf8 16.Nh4![/b] with an edge. Perhaps more logical is [b]10...Re8[/b], though even then [b]11.h5 Nf8 12.h6 g6 13.Kf1!? [/b]seems definitely better for the first player.

[quote]The Modern [i]main line[/i], of course, is to castle on move seven, iso …Nf8. One big challenge to this came in Albrecht-Neikirch, which went 9 Qe2!? Nh5 10 g3 g6 11 Bh6 Ng7 12 g4 Nf6 13 Nd2 Kh8 14 Nf1. Not sure I’d feel happy as Black here but am I too pessimistic? One possible drawback of this main line is that Black has to have a good response to White’s plan of 6 Nf3 Nbd7 7 h3 0-0 8 g4!?, delaying Bd3 (if he doesn’t want to play the transpositional 7 …Nf8). [/quote]

To me, this position seems clearly better for White. I agree!  >:(
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Czech Benoni: key lines and move-order subtleties
Reply #24 - 07/04/12 at 20:40:05
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[quote]I have an ongoing game in this that has gone 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 e5 4.Nc3 d6 5.e4 Nbd7 6.Bd3 Be7 7.Nf3 Nf8 8.h3 Ng6 9.g3 h5 10.h4 a6 11.Nd2 Rb8 12.Nf1.  Hastening the knight to g6 is supposed to be Black's best idea against White's plan, but it seems to me that White has most of the play after g3, h4.  I expect I'll meet 12...Bd7 with 13.a4. [/quote]

Thanks for citing this game elsewhere, Markovich -- I [i]guess[/i] you may be referring here to the game Black won after 12 ...0-0!? (N?). Obviously White went wrong near the end in that game, but what about the opening? The game Donner—Keene went 10 …Bd7 (iso 10 …a6), and continued 11 a3 a6 12 Ng5!? Rb8 13 Qe2 Qc7 14 Kf1 Nh7 15 Nh7 Rh7 16 Kg2 with some White edge. So I’m wondering if White should play 11 Ng5 by analogy and follow the same plan (which might include Nd1/Ne3/Nf5?). Of course Black doesn’t have to go …Nh7, but has he better (in either position/comparable positions)?

A second plan for Black (after 6 Bd3 Nbd7 7 Nf3 Nf8 8 h3 Ng6 9 g3) is to play 9 …0-0!? (iso 9 ..h5), as played by Finegold. Then Stohl gives 10 Bd2 Bd7 11 Qe2 a6 12 h4 as slightly better for White (as mentioned above), but this doesn’t look too terrible(?). How I wonder should Black react on 10 Kf1 (iso 10 Bd2), plan Kg2, Qe2 and evt Nd1/Ne3/Nf5?

The Modern [i]main line[/i], of course, is to castle on move seven, iso …Nf8. One big challenge to this came in Albrecht-Neikirch, which went 9 Qe2!? Nh5 10 g3 g6 11 Bh6 Ng7 12 g4 Nf6 13 Nd2 Kh8 14 Nf1. Not sure I’d feel happy as Black here but am I too pessimistic? One possible drawback of this main line is that Black has to have a good response to White’s plan of 6 Nf3 Nbd7 7 h3 0-0 8 g4!?, delaying Bd3 (if he doesn’t want to play the transpositional 7 …Nf8).

Three plans for Black and three strategic questions! Anyone got any thoughts, or preference as to Black’s best defence against the Modern System?




  
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Re: Czech Benoni: key lines and move-order subtleties
Reply #23 - 12/04/08 at 07:27:29
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Genau wrote on 12/03/08 at 22:28:20:
Hi

I just wanted to hear how you crack the Czech Benoni? Black seems to have a very solid position, but what can white do about it? Any positional or tactical ideas?


I recommend 4.Nc3 d6 5.e4 Be7 6.g3 0-0/Nbd7 7.h4!?, recommended in Dangerous Weapons: The Benoni and Benko. Although the main line with 7.Bg2 is also good enough for a small edge if you are familiar with White's middlegame plans.
  

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Re: Czech Benoni: key lines and move-order subtleties
Reply #22 - 11/24/08 at 13:17:20
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Alluren wrote on 11/22/08 at 15:56:02:
Hi,

I played the CB for more than 10 years with overall good results. I'll try to give my impressions on it.
First, it's very dangerous to play it against an opponent who is rated higher than 2300. He'll manage to minimize your counter play and will win due to the positional weaknesses of the black position. Against lower rated player, they will try to create a strong attack, and will not handle an energic defense.

From the variations point of view :
There are 3 main setup that black is facing most of time:
1. Nf3, Be2, 0-0
2. Nf3, Bd3, h3 g4
3. Ne2, g3, Bg2

The first is in my opinion the easiest to play against. Simply answer Ne1 or any knight move with Bg5 trading black square bishop which almost kill any plan with f4 because the e5 square would be great for a knight. If no f4 comes black has an easy game after the standard plan : Ne8, g6, Ng7, Nf6, Kh8, Ng8, f5.

The second is very tricky. I never tried playing Nf8, Ng6 but maybe this is the best option. My style of play is more based on the counter attack so I don't mind castling kingside and l let my opponent start a violent attack. I tend to setup my pieces with a6, b6, Ra7. Then depending on white is doing : f6, Rf7, Nf8 or Re8, Nf8. I think black has enough pieces to defend but must be precise and react with a perfect timing. Otherwise black get crushed very quickly.

The third is also tricky from the move order point of view. In my opinon, it's the best setup against the Be7 variation. So I tend to play Nbd7 first, if white go for g3, I go for g6 Bg7 as well with leads to complicated play white pawns of e4 e5 f4 f5 Smiley

It's a fun opening to play but black should be afraid to defend against a violent attack !


I once lost embarassingly to this defense against IM (I think he's a GM now) Ben Finegold, in a last-round situation where a draw would have been worth $700.  Since then, how best to play against it has been a question of interest for me.  In general I think the plan with the bishop on d3 and pawn on h3 is good.  I've never tried the g3, Nge2, f4 plan, which I understand is good also.

I have an ongoing game in this that has gone 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 e5 4.Nc3 d6 5.e4 Nbd7 6.Bd3 Be7 7.Nf3 Nf8 8.h3 Ng6 9.g3 h5 10.h4 a6 11.Nd2 Rb8 12.Nf1.  Hastening the knight to g6 is supposed to be Black's best idea against White's plan, but it seems to me that White has most of the play after g3, h4.  I expect I'll meet 12...Bd7 with 13.a4.  
  

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Re: Czech Benoni: key lines and move-order subtleties
Reply #21 - 11/22/08 at 16:28:51
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Alluren wrote on 11/22/08 at 15:56:02:
The second is very tricky. I never tried playing Nf8, Ng6 but maybe this is the best option. My style of play is more based on the counter attack so I don't mind castling kingside and l let my opponent start a violent attack. I tend to setup my pieces with a6, b6, Ra7. Then depending on white is doing : f6, Rf7, Nf8 or Re8, Nf8. I think black has enough pieces to defend but must be precise and react with a perfect timing. Otherwise black get crushed very quickly.


MNb - Bito, CL/2007/FT1

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 d6 4.Nc3 e5 5.e4 Be7 6.h3 Nbd7 7.Nf3 Nf8 8.a3 Ng6 9.Bd3 O-O 10.b4 Nh5 11.g3 Nf6 12.Be3 b6 13.g4 Bd7 14.Rb1 h6 15.bxc5 bxc5 16.Qd2 Nh7

I thought Black was comfortable here, even though I went on to win.
  

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Re: Czech Benoni: key lines and move-order subtleties
Reply #20 - 11/22/08 at 15:56:02
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Hi,

I played the CB for more than 10 years with overall good results. I'll try to give my impressions on it.
First, it's very dangerous to play it against an opponent who is rated higher than 2300. He'll manage to minimize your counter play and will win due to the positional weaknesses of the black position. Against lower rated player, they will try to create a strong attack, and will not handle an energic defense.

From the variations point of view :
There are 3 main setup that black is facing most of time:
1. Nf3, Be2, 0-0
2. Nf3, Bd3, h3 g4
3. Ne2, g3, Bg2

The first is in my opinion the easiest to play against. Simply answer Ne1 or any knight move with Bg5 trading black square bishop which almost kill any plan with f4 because the e5 square would be great for a knight. If no f4 comes black has an easy game after the standard plan : Ne8, g6, Ng7, Nf6, Kh8, Ng8, f5.

The second is very tricky. I never tried playing Nf8, Ng6 but maybe this is the best option. My style of play is more based on the counter attack so I don't mind castling kingside and l let my opponent start a violent attack. I tend to setup my pieces with a6, b6, Ra7. Then depending on white is doing : f6, Rf7, Nf8 or Re8, Nf8. I think black has enough pieces to defend but must be precise and react with a perfect timing. Otherwise black get crushed very quickly.

The third is also tricky from the move order point of view. In my opinon, it's the best setup against the Be7 variation. So I tend to play Nbd7 first, if white go for g3, I go for g6 Bg7 as well with leads to complicated play white pawns of e4 e5 f4 f5 Smiley

It's a fun opening to play but black should be afraid to defend against a violent attack !
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Czech Benoni: key lines and move-order subtleties
Reply #19 - 10/11/08 at 14:22:45
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Thanks Andrew -- this looks very interesting.

I'll post some more Czech Benoni thoughts/variations soon!
  
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Re: Czech Benoni: key lines and move-order subtleties
Reply #18 - 10/11/08 at 10:07:48
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Michael - back on 2 nf3 - in the dangerous weapons there is an idea based on e6 and b5 a sort of pseudo blumenfeld.

Also  in the SOS version 8 - 1 d4 nf6 2 nf3 c5 3 d5 d6 4 nc3 bf5 !? is something to look at !
  
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Re: Czech Benoni: key lines and move-order subtleties
Reply #17 - 10/10/08 at 06:52:26
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nlyda wrote on 10/09/08 at 14:04:06:
Has anyone viewed the ABC's of the Czech Benoni by Andrew Martin.  I am interested in this CD and what exactly is on it.  I am not sure it if is just a dvd or if it has a games database and fritz reader as well.  Please let me know about your impressions and is it worth buying?

It has video lessons in the fritz reader format (i.e. there's a little video box next to the board in the fritz reader, you can stop it, use analysis engines etc.).

See some of the comments above, with which I agree, I watched it and thought it was quite good. Martin is very entertaining and his strength in nearly all his work is that he manages to give an overview in a easy to follow way, but sometimes he is a bit flippant and likely to skip over important lines (that's mostly an observation based on other DVDs by him). However in this case I'm not aware of anything wrong or missign in his analyses and I found several of his ideas very interesting (and hadn't seen them before).
  
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Re: Czech Benoni: key lines and move-order subtleties
Reply #16 - 10/09/08 at 14:04:06
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Has anyone viewed the ABC's of the Czech Benoni by Andrew Martin.  I am interested in this CD and what exactly is on it.  I am not sure it if is just a dvd or if it has a games database and fritz reader as well.  Please let me know about your impressions and is it worth buying?
  
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Re: Czech Benoni: key lines and move-order subtleties
Reply #15 - 10/09/08 at 10:29:59
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Since writing the above I've come to much prefer the plan adopted in Drkulec--Finegold to that of Donner--Keene. Via the 5 ...Nbd7 move order: 6 Nf3 Be7 7 Bd3 Nf8!? 8 h3 Ng6 9 g3! 0-0!? 10 Bd2 Bd7 11 Qe2 a6. Here, GM Stohl gives 12 h4 with a small White plus, and while I won't argue with that I would like to ask why this is so serious for Black after 12 ...Bg4 intending ...Qd7, bolstering the queenside with ...b6 and maybe ...Rfb8 (and possibly the kingside with moves like ...h6 and ...Nh5).
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Czech Benoni: key lines and move-order subtleties
Reply #14 - 10/09/08 at 08:07:07
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Obviously it can't be forced; but I've noticed that 2 ...c5 3 d5 d6, playing a Schmid Benoni after 4 Nc3 g6 and a Czech Benoni (where White has reduced his options) after 4 c4 e5, has been used by some strong players, e.g. Ponomariov.
  
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Re: Czech Benoni: key lines and move-order subtleties
Reply #13 - 10/09/08 at 06:40:54
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A further question is how do you get the czech benoni if white goes 2 Nf3 ?
  
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