BPaulsen wrote on 11/05/08 at 09:01:23:


One man's trash is the next man's treasure  

Anyways, sorry EasyRider for hijacking your thread. If you read my reply on the c4 e5 thread made by BPaulsen, you would see that I (an English player) have a rather pessimistic view of the equal-but-not-really-equalized 1...e5. Maybe I'm just biased. Plus you won't be able to reach most positions after 1...e5 if white move-orders you with 1. Nf3 2. c4. 

I believe that a c6 d5 (Slav) setup or a flexible KID setup (ie Nf6, g6, Bg7, 0-0 with delayed d6 to maintain the option of d5) are more worthwhile paths to pursue against the English - at least they offer positions that are the most welcoming for me. The downside is that white might call your bluff and transpose to mainline Slav/KID/Grunfeld.  


Edit: I don't think the Symmetrical English is the wisest choice either. A studious English / 1.Nf3 player will out-manoeuvre / out-transpose you in no time in these positions. Plus many 1...c5 lines are pretty passive too.

Out of curiosity, may I venture a guess that you play the Fianchetto against the KID?

MNb wrote on 11/05/08 at 00:24:08:


Those positions aren't just as simple as white having compensation, or not. Sometimes white has sufficient, other times he doesn't. It depends on what transpires.

The question, ultimately, is what the person finds most comfortable to play as black. I don't mind playing the black side of 5...dxc4 positions because what more can you ask for as black than an unbalanced position with chances to pull through? I'd rate that a lot higher than reaching a boring, stagnant position, most typical of other Catalan lines.

I realize patient defense isn't for everyone though. 

Quote:


I am convinced it comes closest to meeting the Catalan. I play the Catalan as white, and have for years (well before it regained its popularity). Other lines make white's life easier in comparison, although 5...Nc6 (after 4...dxc4) is interesting right now, having become quite popular.

BPaulsen wrote on 11/04/08 at 01:24:51:


I don't bother if Nbd2 is critical or not. I do bother that I can't find a defence that satisfies me. The prospect of working out a lot of variations that lead to a slightly inferior ending does not appeal to me. So exit 5...c5.
After 5...dxc4 I see a lot of lines in which White gives up the pawn for decent compensation. As you write, not to my taste as Black either.
And if you give a Carlsen loss as an example it is only fair to mention the better move 10.Rd1 as well, with which White won a game in the same year.
All in all I am not convinced that 4...Bb4+ definitely solves my problem of how to meet the Catalan, even though I would like to meet 5.Bd2. And that was what you stated a page before.

BPaulsen wrote on 11/04/08 at 07:55:58:


Yes, I won't play Nbd2 myself either. An interesting line is 10. Ne5 but personally I don't think 10. b3 is bad. Play continues with 10...Nbd7 11. Rd1 and now after 11...Rc8 white should play 12. Nc3 and it's a complex game. 

For example, 12...bxc4 may be answered with 13. e4; 12...Nh5 with 13. Bc1 and 12...b5 with the typical 13. c5. 
In fact, the most active and logical looking is 12...c5, after which white plays 13. cxd5. White have been doing well here, which is most likely due to black's resulting isolated d-pawn.

BPaulsen wrote on 11/04/08 at 06:01:28:


All the standard moves are possible. Rd1, b3 or Bf4. I would personally play Rd1 first though based on my move order in the traditional Closed Catalan. 

Edit: wait, come to think of it, this may not be the wisest choice if I want to play Bd2-f4-c1-a3 against the ...Nh5, ...f5 plan. The immediate Bf4 or b3 seems equally viable - it really depends on whether white wants to get the Catalan-Dutch business over and done with quickly. 

Final edit: (sorry) yeah I think I would play Bf4 here as in the scheme of things, b3 is not that important yet.

BPaulsen wrote on 11/04/08 at 03:31:32:


Wait a sec, Nb1 shouldn't be developed yet. Ie:
1. d4 d5
2. c4 e6
3. Nf3 Nf6
4. g3 Bb4+
5. Bd2 Be7
6. Bg2 0-0
7. 0-0 c6
8. Qc2 Nbd7
9. Bf4 Nh5
10. Bc1 f5
11. b3 
White can delay the Bf4-c1 operation in favour of Rd1 and b3, but that shouldn't affect his opportunity to carry out Ba3. In this line - at least the way I understand it - Nb1 gets developed very late. 

As for a ...c5 thrust being an equalizer...I'm not so sure, since black has already commited to ...c7-c6 before so any further push should come with the same caution as in traditional Closed Catalan lines. That is, unless I'm missing the plot entirely and you are talking about a totally different position.

BPaulsen wrote on 11/04/08 at 01:05:10:


Yes, Bf4 excursions tend to be attacked. However, something that may be interesting in this early Bd2 variation is that Bf4 is made to provoke black to play ...Nf6-h5, after which white simply retreats Bf4-c1. This vacates the d2 square for the knight and invites black to play ...Nh5-f6 to transpose to normal Closed Catalan. And if black makes use of his knight on the edge by ...f7-f5, white is then perfectly set to perform the typical bishop exchange against the Dutch Stonewall - that is: Bc1-a3. Advantage is not guaranteed of course, but exchanging off the Stonewall's good bishop is always a step in the right direction.

Mmm, as for normal Closed Catalan lines, I must say in my games I tend to develop Rd1, b3 and Nbd2/Nc3, then aim straight away for e4. I prefer to leave Bc1 on the spot for the sake of flexibility (since often I am not certain what is its best role). Eg after ...dxe4, Nxe4 ...Nxe4, Qxe4 ...Nf6, Qe2/c2 white can play the c4-c5 clamp (often kicking black's Bd6) followed by Bf4 if black has a queen on c7, Bd2 if white is going for queenside pawnstorm, or Bb2 after all to support d4. 

In regards to your preference for the 1. c4 Nf6 2. g3 e6 3. Bg2 d5 4. Nf3 dxc4 line, you have better authority on the black side of this variation than me as I only play it from the white side. I have this semi-unfortunate bias for Catalan structures and view most black lines against the Catalan as difficult paths to equality. I must say you are a brave soul for allowing the Open Catalan as black but once again my blatant bias is embarrassingly exposing itself in the open.