Just looked at your line...I remember seeing it years ago (how can anyone not remember the weird Qd4-e3-d2-e1 coupled with Rfe1-e2). At the time I was really confused by this elaborate choreography, thinking why can't white just play Qd2-e1 somewhere along the line. 

Now, mucking around with the move orders, I realize (most likely you had come to the same conclusion) that white must quickly play Nf3-d4 (and hence Qe3) in order to protect Pe4 with Bg2 before black gets in ...Nbd7-c5 and ties down white's heavy pieces. 

Anyhow, white seems to be able to get away this scheme while covering both Pc4 and Pe4 against the ...b5 and ...d5 breaks and setting up the kingside attack at the same time. Good research BPaulsen!

Mmm bravo, you've obviously came into this discussion very prepared. Indeed, after ...Qc8, white is finding himself against a solid wall that is slowly but surely advancing. I must spend some time looking into this...though unfortunately, any attempt at an intelligent reply won't come for a while due to exams. 

PS mmm funny, I had always thought a relatively early ...a7-a6 is necessary for black. Guess I still have plenty to learn.

BPaulsen, thank you very much for exposing this chink in my "understanding" in this sort of positions. This discussion is proving very beneficial, not only to make myself aware of my dangerous underestimation of the Hedgehog, but...I'm learning as I am typing this response!

Anyways, I went back and had a look through a database and opening explorer (more specifically http://www.365chess.com/ since I have unfortunately uninstalled all chess programs from my computer due to the need to study for uni exams...I really shouldn't even be on here right now ). 

Before continuing, I should make clear the moves for the other members: 

1. c4 c5
2. Nf3 b6
3. g3 Bb7
4. Bg2 e6
5. Nc3 Nf6
6. 0-0 Be7 
7. d4 cxd4
8. Qxd4 d6
9. b3 

You are correct in that e2-e4 is inevitable if white knows what is best for his health. However, at least he can delay this with early b3. If black stuffs up, then all the better and e4 becomes unneeded. However let's say black plays the best order - as you have outlined above: 9...0-0 10. Rd1 Nbd7. After going through 11. Ba3 and 11. Ng5 I have come to believe that an immediate e2-e4 now is the best. However, this is with a specific goal in mind as we shall see. 

After 11...a6, white now takes advantage of the early b3 and play 12. Ba3! This pretty much forces 12...Nc5 after which white then follows up with 13. e4-e5! Play continues with 13...dxe5 14. Qxd8 Rfxd8 15. Nxe5 Bxg2 16. Kxg2. In truth I would never have gone for this sort of simplified position before now. But white's score in this line is truly fantastic (and black's quite miserable). Let's see why...



Firstly, as we all know - in general - simplifications of pieces in the Hedgehog tend to rob it of its dynamism - resulting in positions that are at best draw for black. However, in this case black has some serious weaknesses. Due to Ba3 (again   ) both black's Nc5 and Be7 are tied down at least temporarily, while Be7 is also dangerously loose. This would have been okay if not for black's tender light-squared on the queenside. For example, with white's advanced and unassailable Ne5, he can easily go Nc6 when necessary (and indeed games in the database show the havoc this can cause). White's other knight is also very useful. Not only does it guard the e4 square for the moment, it also allows white to undertake a Bxc5 exchange followed by ...Bxc5 and Na4 fork. If black resists by ...bxc5, Na4 permanently attacks Pc5 and black's dark squared bishop can say goodbye to any active ambitions. 

In conclusion, all white's pieces are superior to black's and really for black he can only play for a draw or a loss in this position. Looking at the stats, after 16. Kxg2, black's main options are ...Bf8 and ...Rdc8 for which the white's winning percentage is 54.2% and 40% respectively with remaining proportions being drawn...and no wins for black. 

Btw w00t to myself for figuring out how to insert a diagram  

Personally in the English, I dislike going for structures that prop up the maroczy bind if white has bothered to fianchetto in the first place. Obviously it often makes the light squared bishop a mere defensive piece. However, here if white does not succeed in an attack against the kingside, e4 and c4 together are just waiting to be undermined with ...d5 and ...b5. 

Thus for my Hedgehog investigation, I've been focusing on piece play in the centre and targetting the d6 pawn to try force Black to compromise his position, specifically via the 8.Qxd4 line.  
Firstly I had a go with the early Bg5 in some games. My conclusion is that for the temporary looseness of the d6 pawn, it is not worth having to give up the bishop pair. In addition, in one of my games black just ditched the d6 pawn altogether and went for my c4 pawn. A manoeuvre to watch out for when white is looking to win the d6 pawn is also the cunning ...Ra8-a7 rook lift. Not only does this remove the rook from the long diagonal, any attempts made by white to play Qxd6 may be met by a nasty ...Ra7-d7 skewer. 

Anyways, a few days ago, I saw this game (granted it was a rapid):


[Event "Cap d'Agde"]
[Site "Cap Agde FRA"]
[Date "2008.10.31"]
[EventDate "2008.??.??"]
[Round "13.3"]
[Result "1-0"]
[White "Vassily Ivanchuk"]
[Black "Magnus Carlsen"]
[ECO "A30"]
[WhiteElo "2786"]
[BlackElo "2786"]
[PlyCount "86"]

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 c5 4. g3 b6 5. Bg2 Bb7 6. O-O Be7 7. d4 cxd4 8. Qxd4
d6 9. b3 a6 10. Ba3 O-O 11. Rfd1 Ne8 12. Ne4 Bxe4 13. Qxe4 Ra7 14. Rac1 Rc7 15.
Nd4 Qc8 16. Qe3 Nd7 17. Nf5 Nc5 18. Nxe7+ Rxe7 19. Rd2 a5 20. Rcd1 Qc7 21. Bb2
Rd7 22. h4 e5 23. Qf3 Re7 24. Qc6 Qb8 25. e3 h6 26. f4 f5 27. fxe5 dxe5 28. Rd8
Qc7 29. Bd5+ Kh7 30. Qxc7 Rxc7 31. Bxe5 Re7 32. Bd4 g5 33. hxg5 hxg5 34. Kg2
Kg6 35. Rh1 Ne6 36. Bxe6 Rxe6 37. Rb8 f4 38. gxf4 gxf4 39. Rxb6 Rxb6 40. Bxb6
a4 41. Rf1 axb3 42. axb3 Nd6 43. Bc5 1-0

The early b3 not only supports Pc4, but also allows a Bc1-a3 excursion. I believe Carlsen's order was not the best and that he should have spent the tempo on a6 on ...0-0 or ...Nbd7 instead. However, in this case, Ba3 should be replaced with Rfd1 and the bishop manoeuvre is to be left for a slightly latter more opportune time. Anyhow, once Ivanchuk has forced Carlsen to retreat and defend d6, note how he does not try to win d6 by force. Instead he firstly take over the long diagonal by Ne4 and then just develops. (Rac1 also has the threat of c4-c5 - nicely supported by Ba3.) 

For the next few moves, Ivanchuk just shuffled his queen and knight around in the centre for a more optical arrangement while at the same time black was prevented from play ...d6-d5 due to the pin created by Ba3 against the vulnerable Be7. 

It is interesting to find that it was only later on that Ivanchuk undertook the typical Rd2-Rcd1 manoeuvre. Yet even after doubling the rooks white was not able (and did not try) to forcefully finish off Pd6. Instead, knowing that he has pinned down black's position, Ivanchuk spent the time gaining space (eg h4...but NOT e4) as well as finalizing the takeover of the long diagonal. Carlsen probably overreacted with ...e6-e5 but it was instructive to see white's f2-f4 push which opened black's position and allowed the bishop pair to get down to business. Funnily enough the winning of the weak pawn took place in the end on e5 instead of d6. 

There. That's my observations on the Hedgehog. Apologies for focusing more on one game and its middegame section instead of the opening...but that sort of position is what I go for when playing against the Hedgehog and knowing this helps me adjust my opening orders and setups. Once again, no-no to e4 ;P

Just my 2c.

BPaulsen wrote on 11/03/08 at 19:25:33:


Really?  I recently played a CC game (for this website's team, in fact) where I did not feel all that comfortable as Black. 

White: David White (Chess Nomads)
Black: Mark Morss (Chesspublishing.com)
Event: CL/2007/FT1 Board 1

1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 e6 5.Nc3 Nf6 6.a3 Nxd4 7.Qxd4 b6 8.Qf4 Bb7 9.e4 d6 10.Be2 Be7 11.O-O O-O 12.Rd1 a6 13.b4 Qc7 14.Bb2 Rac8 15.Qg3 Rfd8 16.Rac1 Bf8 17.Bd3 Nd7 18.f4 g6 19.Ne2 Bg7 20.Bxg7 Kxg7 21.Nc3 Nf6 22.Re1 Bc6 23.Bf1 Bb7 24.e5 Nd7 25.Qe3 h6 26.Na4 dxe5 27.fxe5 Rf8 28.Rcd1 Bc6 29.Rxd7 Bxd7 30.Nxb6 Rcd8 31.a4 f5 32.exf6+ Rxf6 33.c5 Bc6 34.Bxa6 Rdf8 35.Bb5 Bxb5 36.axb5 Qf7 37.Qe5 Kh7 38.h3 h5 39.Kh2 Rf1 40.Rxf1 Qxf1 41.Nd7 Rf5 42.Qe4 Qxb5 43.c6 Qa4 44.Ne5 Qa7 45.Nf3 Qb8+ 46.Kg1 Rd5 47.Qc4 Qb6+ 48.Kh2 Qc7+ 49.g3 Qa7 1/2 - 1/2

I thought he overreached with his exchange sacrifice on move 29, otherwise I was just worse.  Even as it was, I had to play very precisely to draw.  Since you appear to have more understanding of these positions than I, maybe you could explain how I could have equalized.

Markovich wrote on 11/03/08 at 18:05:29:


I haven't managed to produce any advantages in the lines with an early Ng5. It certainly would make life easier. Which line involving Ng5 was he talking about, and what was the critical line?

If I recall correctly, in Carsten Hansen's Symmetrical English white has the advantage in one of his Qxd4 lines (I think it is the one I'm holding under the spotlight right now), but I lost the book when I moved recently. 

Quote:


The problem is white has to find a way to make progress, or black can leisurely prepare ...b5 or ...d5. Sometimes black doesn't even need the break if wood gets chopped. If white waits and does nothing, black can simply wait and do nothing. 

In my studies I've found that if white can get g4 in, his positions become much easier to play, and usually ...d5 ends up being prevented indirectly. ...b5 is usually not possible due to tension in the center.

I'm looking at 18...h5 right now (I improved my earlier analysis by playing 19. g4 after 18...Nc5. It's clear that white needs to get that move in at the first chance, and that black does best preventing, just like in the 7.Re1 lines.

18...h5 would be a novelty in the position, from what I can gather, but it poses some tough problems to white.

The first problem is now g4 requires h3, which is incredibly slow. Worthy of mention is that 15. h3 was played by Uhlmann (or on the 14th move with Re1 to follow) in a few games, but his score was really bad. It seems like Uhlmann's games are the entire basis for this variation, and what makes the analysis hard is how much the move-orders can change.

The second problem is that if white starts even trying to build up tension for an attack, ...d5 or ...b5 quickly spring to life.

It sucks that 7. Re1 has been absolutely neutered by Adams, otherwise I wouldn't bother with the 8. Qxd4 stuff.

Quote:

I dont know if you found something from a theoretical point of view - but working 10 hours on one single line should certainly improve your understanding of the position and therefore raise your winning chances. I would not play the hedgehog against you, knowing your that well prepared!