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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) "Beat the King's Indian" by Jan Markos (Read 90295 times)
Michael Ayton
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Re: "Beat the King's Indian" by Jan Markos
Reply #155 - 04/29/10 at 13:26:03
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[quote]You will find players that mindlessly trot out 7...Nc6 to run into 8. d5 Ne7 9. Nd2 and white's doing well (he's achieved the more useful Be3 over 0-0 as in the 7. 0-0 Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. Nd2 variation). I've had two unprepared black players play this way in tournament play, one an 1800, one a 1900, so it's not unheard of.
[/quote]

Magic for White of course! But I've noticed strong players playing in different ways as White here -- I'd be interested to know what's considered nastiest for Black (or maybe some lines have equal status?).

  
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BPaulsen
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Re: "Beat the King's Indian" by Jan Markos
Reply #154 - 02/19/10 at 22:48:24
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Templare2 wrote on 02/19/10 at 22:37:00:
BPaulsen wrote on 02/18/10 at 17:19:41:
@Templare 2:

Being a 1. Nf3 player I've had a lot of KID come my way in tournament play, so I've spent more time there than any other single black opening when it comes to preparation as white.

My recommendation would be for the Gligoric to a class player.

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. d4 0-0 6. Be2 e5 7. Be3.



7...Ng4 is definitely the critical try


The Gligoric System is very interesting. What about 7.., h6 ( Nunn)? It seems the strongest move in this position.

Thanks


Theoretical works I've seen have made reference to 7...h6 being +=, even Gallagher in "Play the KID" admits as much.

7...h6 is a tricky idea, but far and away not the strongest continuation at black's disposal.

Black's lone road to equality is pretty much the 7...Ng4 8. Bg5 f6 9. Bh4 g5 10. Bg3 Nh6 continuation, and as I said before - even there black has to exercise more caution and be a lot more precise than white. Even from there white has three distinct options that are quite different in nature from eachother that black has to know specifics to (11. d5, 11. dxe5, 11. c5).
  

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kylemeister
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Re: "Beat the King's Indian" by Jan Markos
Reply #153 - 02/19/10 at 22:47:55
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I don't know that 7...h6 was ever considered the strongest move, though it certainly made a splash back around the time Dr. Nunn was at his peak.  It seems to be considered "+=" these days.
  
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Templare2
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Re: "Beat the King's Indian" by Jan Markos
Reply #152 - 02/19/10 at 22:37:00
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BPaulsen wrote on 02/18/10 at 17:19:41:
@Templare 2:

Being a 1. Nf3 player I've had a lot of KID come my way in tournament play, so I've spent more time there than any other single black opening when it comes to preparation as white.

My recommendation would be for the Gligoric to a class player.

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. d4 0-0 6. Be2 e5 7. Be3.



7...Ng4 is definitely the critical try


The Gligoric System is very interesting. What about 7.., h6 ( Nunn)? It seems the strongest move in this position.

Thanks
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: "Beat the King's Indian" by Jan Markos
Reply #151 - 02/18/10 at 19:41:09
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Thanks. I've worked out why 8 d5 after 7 ...Nbd7 is not best. But is 8 de anodyne necessarily? (I was just maybe wanting something to play with a bit less study, that was all ...  Cheesy)
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: "Beat the King's Indian" by Jan Markos
Reply #150 - 02/18/10 at 19:15:22
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[quote author=37343E38590 link=1226348173/149#149 date=1266518236]Very interesting, BPaulsen -- your inspiring write-up has encouraged me to take a look at this.

What is your take on 7 ...Na6, when Golubev recommends transposition to E94 with 8 0-0? And how should White meet 7 ...Nbd7? -- 8 d5, or 8 de de 9 Nd2 perhaps? (I don't really want to run into trendy Dembo stuff, esp. as I might give this a punt as Black!)[/quote]

White can transpose back into the main lines with 8. 0-0 in case of 7...Na6/7...Nbd7. The Khalifman books cover them both well. Anyone that plays the white side of the Classical KID, even if they don't play the Bayonet, should have OFWAK 1a/1b - highly recommended.

The trendy Dembo stuff is not something white players should be fearing if they take the time to learn it.
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: "Beat the King's Indian" by Jan Markos
Reply #149 - 02/18/10 at 18:37:16
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Very interesting, BPaulsen -- your inspiring write-up has encouraged me to take a look at this.

What is your take on 7 ...Na6, when Golubev recommends transposition to E94 with 8 0-0? And how should White meet 7 ...Nbd7? -- 8 d5, or 8 de de 9 Nd2 perhaps? (I don't really want to run into trendy Dembo stuff, esp. as I might give this a punt as Black!)
  
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Re: "Beat the King's Indian" by Jan Markos
Reply #148 - 02/18/10 at 17:43:21
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Never mind 1800s and 1900s, 7...Nc6 against the Gligoric has been played by a number of titled players (it's also been given as unclear, though I find that hard to believe).
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: "Beat the King's Indian" by Jan Markos
Reply #147 - 02/18/10 at 17:19:41
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@Templare 2:

Being a 1. Nf3 player I've had a lot of KID come my way in tournament play, so I've spent more time there than any other single black opening when it comes to preparation as white.

My recommendation would be for the Gligoric to a class player.

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. d4 0-0 6. Be2 e5 7. Be3.

You will find players that mindlessly trot out 7...Nc6 to run into 8. d5 Ne7 9. Nd2 and white's doing well (he's achieved the more useful Be3 over 0-0 as in the 7. 0-0 Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. Nd2 variation). I've had two unprepared black players play this way in tournament play, one an 1800, one a 1900, so it's not unheard of.

7...Ng4 is definitely the critical try, when 8. Bg5 f6 9. Bh4 g5 10. Bg3 Nh6 is the best line for black. 11. dxe5 is a relatively quiet try [11...dxe5 12. Qd5+ Kh8 (if 12...Nf7 then h4 ideas for white are powerful) 13. Qxd8 Rxd8 14. h4 g4 15. Nd2] that is interesting. 11. c5 has some surprise value, but is equal. 11. d5 is the main line, very easy to handle as white, and most importantly black doesn't get his typical kingside attack at all.

I had a game against a 2350 that saw black blunder with 9...Nh6 when 10. dxe5 is +-, which is one of the easier games I've ever won in tournament play. This illustrates that black can trip over himself quite easily, which makes it even more effective for the class player in tournament play.

The main line is 11. d5, when black can equalize but has to have considerable precision up to around move 18-20. Even in the equal variations black is the only one that has to exercise caution - white's entirely safe with zero positional defects.

Another upside to 7. Be3 is the line with exd4 is even easier for white to handle compared to 7. 0-0.

Krasenkow's system is just too nuanced for a lot of players to handle, especially in the 6...e5 7. d5 a5 line.
  

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Re: "Beat the King's Indian" by Jan Markos
Reply #146 - 02/18/10 at 17:15:07
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BPaulsen wrote on 02/18/10 at 14:58:21:
I played that line for a few years, my first win ever against an IM (he's now GM Barcenilla) came as white in it.

I definitely tried to keep it alive, maybe something new is produced, but I couldn't beat anything that's been recommended as the theoretical antidote for awhile now.


Fair enough.
  

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Re: "Beat the King's Indian" by Jan Markos
Reply #145 - 02/18/10 at 17:03:04
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My rating is around 1900 points. In my next tournament ( in May) i'll play the B tournament (players rated from 1600 to 2000 points).

Tnx  Smiley
  

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Re: "Beat the King's Indian" by Jan Markos
Reply #144 - 02/18/10 at 16:51:12
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Templare2,

What is your approximate rating and what is the range of rated opponents to you play against?
  

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Re: "Beat the King's Indian" by Jan Markos
Reply #143 - 02/18/10 at 16:48:24
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Smiley Thank you all! Your comments are really interesting.


BPaulsen wrote on 02/18/10 at 13:10:52:
9. Ne1/10. Be3/13. a4 is met by a5, where black's been okay for some time now.

It's viable, just don't expect anything against a prepared black opponent.


Yes, I think You are right. But it is a difficult task to obtain a good position against a well prepared opponent in any openings.

I must learn the KID starting from zero, so do You suggest the above mentioned line or you can suggest others line ( like Krasenkow h3)?

Markovich wrote on 02/18/10 at 14:26:24:
BPaulsen wrote on 02/18/10 at 13:10:52:
.


I have no doubt that BPaulen here, as always, knowledgeably reports the state of current theory.  It seems to me though that when preparing opening systems we also develop our own theory.  It's not as if chess has been solved, after all.  Nor does everyone have exactly the same understanding of how it should be played, particularly in difficult positions like those that arise in the KID Classical.  Furthermore, given that current theory is constantly being revised, I'm not sure how much it should guide our own opening researches. 

So my suggestion is, now that you know that current theory considers Black's resources adequate in this line, nevertheless take serious look at it yourself and see if you can find any useful ideas for White.  "Useful" according to your own lights, that is.

If you do that, I don't think I would be quite as sure as BPaulsen is that you'll have no chances against prepared opposition.


Your hint is very wise but i’m a week player and i don’t think to be able to find for myself new ideas in a well analysed opening like the KID. I can try, of course.

Antillian wrote on 02/18/10 at 14:54:19:
Templare2,

The Krasenkow system is an excellent practical weapon and is consistent with a 1. Nf3 move order. It may not give the so called += that everyone seems to obsess about. But in the hands of a specialist, it will probably yield better practical results than the Bayonet and the other more theoretically significant lines.


I considered this system too and I agree with you that is a excellent pratical weapon. But in my opinion the Korchnoi variation is more forcing and the queen’s side attack more easy to understand..
  

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Re: "Beat the King's Indian" by Jan Markos
Reply #142 - 02/18/10 at 16:29:12
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Klick wrote on 02/18/10 at 16:21:35:
I`m considering playing the Korchnoi Mar del Plata variation. What is considered the black antidote BPaulsen?


13...a5. Everything else is comfortably +=, bordering in many cases on +/-.

White has a few tries, but nothing that sees his queenside attack get there before black's kingside attack secures equal chances.
  

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Re: "Beat the King's Indian" by Jan Markos
Reply #141 - 02/18/10 at 16:21:35
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I`m considering playing the Korchnoi Mar del Plata variation. What is considered the black antidote BPaulsen?
  

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