Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 11
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) "Beat the King's Indian" by Jan Markos (Read 106881 times)
Meat
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 184
Joined: 06/27/06
Re: "Beat the King's Indian" by Jan Markos
Reply #95 - 01/16/09 at 15:21:49
Post Tools
Sloughter's analysis makes the KID look like a forced win...


... for black.  Grin
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bibs
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 2338
Joined: 10/24/06
Re: "Beat the King's Indian" by Jan Markos
Reply #94 - 01/16/09 at 14:39:37
Post Tools
Not clear - you mean the Makagonov h3 Nh5 g3 stuff? (which is covered well in markos)
Or the fianchetto KID. (which of course is not - but seemingly will be in Avrukh II)
Can you please be a little clearer when you ask qs?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
wcywing
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 176
Joined: 01/04/08
Re: "Beat the King's Indian" by Jan Markos
Reply #93 - 01/16/09 at 14:07:58
Post Tools
so, should i get this book to complement my GM rep book d4?  made by the same publishers.  i usually like the g3 variation.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fluffy
Full Member
***
Offline


International Master

Posts: 246
Location: Boston
Joined: 08/01/05
Gender: Male
Re: "Beat the King's Indian" by Jan Markos
Reply #92 - 01/16/09 at 13:32:56
Post Tools
why are you guys arguing with a 1600's "analysis"? isn't this supposed to be a thread on the Markos book. At least "Anonymous" was causing havoc on the topical issue.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
mangler
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 174
Location: Orlando
Joined: 10/30/06
Gender: Male
Re: "Beat the King's Indian" by Jan Markos
Reply #91 - 01/16/09 at 12:00:13
Post Tools
I have been trying not to comment on this thread, but this is too much....

Here is your line: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nge2 O-O 6.b4 c5 7.Rb1

Do you really think that cxb4 is best that black has, and that Black will have to play b6 and Bb7??? News flash, no King's indian player ever thinks of developing the queen bishop to b7. Maybe a queen's indian player, but even those guys stick it on a6 half the time.

I think you missed the whole point of 6...c5, which was to attack and undermine the center. Why would black want to trade the c pawn for the b pawn?? 7...cd4 is 1 obvious improvement. And on your proposed 7...Nc6 8.b5 then 8...Nxd4 seems even better for black. Keep in mind I am not looking at this on a board, just the one in my head.

There are basic principles in play here, and a reading of virtually any King's Indian book (starting out, mastering the KID, Bronstein on the KID, etc) will help you realize that.

Good luck with your studies.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
sloughter
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 619
Location: schoharie
Joined: 12/29/08
Gender: Male
Re: "Beat the King's Indian" by Jan Markos
Reply #90 - 01/16/09 at 11:19:30
Post Tools
     It is interesting that you only find good moves for Black. How about finding some with White? You never questioned 5.Nge2 O-O 6.b4!! c5 7.a3?, a critical strategic blunder. With the obvious 7.Rb1! White shuts down all tactical play by Black (The main tactical threat is to meet d5 with Nxe4 and a1 hangs) If you try something like 7...Nc6, I just play b5.
     Unless you can find something better, 7...cxb5 is best. White plays 8.Rxb4 & if Nc6, 9.Rb1. I would evaluate the final position as +/- OTB between Grandmasters of equal strength and +- theoretically. Here's why:

     White is playing against both Black Bishops. The King Bishop is useless for attacking purposes because there is nothing to attack of any significance on the long diagonal. What does Black do with his Queen Bishop? Bd7? If Black tries b6/Bb7, he has to be afraid of the minority attack a4/a5 for the rest of the game. There are no other squares for the Queen Bishop.
    You will note after an eventual d5 by White that Black has lost the key resource c6 contesting the center.
     White can continue g3/f3! (You will note that this is a supercharged Saemisch. Like I said, the Saemisch favors White), h3 & White can permanently keep a Knight out of g4. Then I would follow with Rh2/Rf2/Bg2 & maybe Kf1 should Black do something aggressive.
     According to my theories (I have never studied Queen pawn openings), this is pattern recognition for me. Now, White wins by advancing a pawn, rearrange his pieces, push another pawn, etc. until he pushes Black off the board.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
sloughter
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 619
Location: schoharie
Joined: 12/29/08
Gender: Male
Re: "Beat the King's Indian" by Jan Markos
Reply #89 - 01/16/09 at 10:45:29
Post Tools
     It's interesting that you only find good moves for Black. How about finding some for White? 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nge2 O-O 6.b4 c5, which you claim is pattern recognition. You never questioned the key mistake made by White, the time wasting 7.a3? when the simple 7.Rb1! takes away all the tactical stuff by Black i.e. there is now never a threat to meet Nxe4 with Bxa1, should White play d5, so White can play d5 any time he wants to. Meanwhile, you have given up the key resource c6 to contest the center after an eventual d5. White can cut the board in half, and, with his superior space, push Black off the board.

     White simply meets 7...cxb4 with 8.Rxb4 You will observe that White is playing against both Black Bishops. The King Bishop is all but useless on the a1-h8 diagonal and Black has nothing better at some point than playing b6/Bb7, but when? If you don't deal with the threat b5/a4, I will own the entire board. There is also the auxilliary threat of meeting b6/Bb7 with a minority attack i.e. in response to b6/Bb7, how does Black meet the simple threat LONG TERM of a4/a5?

What are you going to do with your Queen Bishop? Bd7? I intend to play g3/f3 (At long last, White gets to play a superior form of the Saemisch! Just like I said, the Saemisch is favorable to White, but move order is critical!) Now I would play, without thinking, h3 to permanently take away the g4 square from the Knights. Then I have the luxury of such things as Rh2/Rf2/Bg2 & something like Kf1, depending on how frisky Black gets on the Kingside. White has play over the entire board. I have never studied the King's Indian, but according to my theories, this is pattern recognition for me. Black has nothing better than 7...cxb4 8.Rxb4 Nc6 9.Rb1 +/=

Your move.

Stigma wrote on 01/15/09 at 14:25:29:
sloughter wrote on 01/15/09 at 13:31:24:
 It is well known that some theoreticians play poorly and some strong players are weak theoreticians (great coaches are not necessarily great players). It is an entirely different mind set. Some players thrive on adrenaline and the thrill of combat; others prefer quiet study in the absence of stress. It's all a matter of taste.


Sure there are some differences, but it is obviously not "an entirely different mind set". There is a strong correlation between being a strong theoretician, a strong player and a strong trainer (in particular one who wants to give advice to strong players).

What kind of seconds did Anand and Kramnik select for their WCh match? GMs only. What a strange coincidence, given that Leko, Kasimdzhanov, Wojtaszek et al. didn't have to play a single, stressful game!? The simple reason is the more you understand of chess (including technical skills of opening preparation in this case) the better equipped you are to play OR analyze OR train someone.

Take your line 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nge2 0-0 6.b4?!. You appear surprised by 6...c5, even giving it '!!' in an earlier post. I risk the claim that 6..c5 is the first or second candidate move most strong KID players will consider. I could have spared you that hour of Fritz analysis and suggested 6...c5 in a second. It's natural to look for a way to punish White's weakening of the long diagonal, and I think black might already have the advantage.

Even an expert-level player sees this possibility instantly, because I've seen this kind of pseudo-sacrifice so many times. It's all about pattern recognition. Do you really want to dispute that this kind of intuition is a common factor in great players, trainers and analysts?

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 2211
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: "Beat the King's Indian" by Jan Markos
Reply #88 - 01/16/09 at 02:00:49
Post Tools
Like others I too am enjoying this thread, probably a bit more than I should, and for all the wrong reasons to boot. No doubt I will later regret this, but let’s do some reflection and perhaps toss some more wood on the proverbial fire.

Sloughter: You are right that I don't play well OTB, but in the only blitz game I have ever played against a Grandmaster, I did manage to draw GM Alburt on the Black side of a Blumenfeld Counter Gambit over the phone. Lev later said that I stood better for most of the middlegame, but I decided not to get greedy (When you are a 1600 player and a GM offers you a draw, it is a good idea to take it!) –END  


Really? I never would have guessed, you being so impressive in  phone blitz and all.  Cheesy


Sloughter: The concept of controlled space is epitomized by Anatoly Karpov---that is why he likes the Saemisch. His theories are so poorly understood that GM Seirawan made the following statement, "Karpov is the most confounding player I have ever known. Take a look at this position. All of White's pieces are on their first two ranks, but it is Black who has the problems!" What Karpov understands is that controlled space is disguised time i.e controlled space is time. When a player has more maneuvering room, he/she can rearrange their pieces more effectively compared to their opponent, hence they wind up with superior piece placement i.e. desirable development.-END

I managed to dig up a striking Kings Indian example of Slougter’s controlled space theory in action, using the doyen himself, Karpov, on the white side of the fearsome Saemisch. The example aptly features “All of White's pieces on their first two ranks” controlling Space disguised as, errrrr…… Time. Well enough talk, after all, a diagram speaks a thousand words:


* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* POSITION AFTER BLACK’S 19TH MOVE

Karpov,A (2725) - Kasparov,G (2805) [E86]
Linares 11, 1993

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 0-0 6.Be3 e5 7.Nge2 Nbd7 8.Qd2 c6 9.Rd1 a6 10.dxe5 Nxe5 11.b3 b5 12.cxb5 axb5 13.Qxd6 Nfd7 14.f4 b4 15.Nb1 Ng4 16.Bd4 Bxd4 17.Qxd4 Rxa2 18.h3 c5 19.Qg1 Ngf6 20.e5 Ne4 21.h4 c4 22.Nc1 c3 23.Nxa2 c2 24.Qd4 cxd1Q+ 25.Kxd1 Ndc5 26.Qxd8 Rxd8+ 27.Kc2 Nf2  0-1

Ignorance is bliss so perhaps Kasparov was blissfully unaware of these new fandangled Controlled Space, Inner Space and Outer Space theories and saw only an opponent undeveloping pieces and begging to be crushed. Whatever the reason, eight moves later, as if by MAGIC, Black Magic that is, Karpov was forced to resign. Grin

Interestingly enough on the only documented occasion of Karpov playing the King’s Indian, was when he was 99% certain of facing the fearsome Saemisch. Further food for thought eh slought, although I’m sure you can find a way to rationalize this also.

Toppy Smiley



« Last Edit: 01/16/09 at 23:39:24 by TopNotch »  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bibs
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 2338
Joined: 10/24/06
Re: "Beat the King's Indian" by Jan Markos
Reply #87 - 01/16/09 at 02:00:32
Post Tools
Smashing hat. You taking orders? I would like mine in gold please. With silver stars.

Anyhow, enough of the Moody drivel. Duffer writes vacuous vanity book. Mum buys some copies - 'Well done son. Looks lovely' - gives to aunties and uncles, who put in boxes in respective attics. Nuff said.

Back to the chess...ok?
Markos' book - useful as a summary of the current state of things, as I had not really kept up to date - but adds little. Would have liked to se the author engage rather more with the material. Perhaps may have been useful for the author to focus more on one particular line. Solid, but not inspiring.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
drkodos
God Member
*****
Offline


I see....stars.

Posts: 778
Location: Jupiter, and beyond
Joined: 03/29/07
Re: "Beat the King's Indian" by Jan Markos
Reply #86 - 01/15/09 at 14:52:02
Post Tools
As always, and as befitting this site, drkodos will magnanimously share this never seen before, secret governmental hat analysis:



As it says on the paper DO NOT SHOW THIS TO ANYONE!



#30
  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
drkodos
God Member
*****
Offline


I see....stars.

Posts: 778
Location: Jupiter, and beyond
Joined: 03/29/07
Re: "Beat the King's Indian" by Jan Markos
Reply #85 - 01/15/09 at 14:44:05
Post Tools


What's the frequency, Kenneth?




With my new wireless direct-to-brain internet connection I am beginning to understand Sloughter's insightful analysis much better now, thank you very much.


Sloughter:  I am sending you some moves with my psionic power.  

Do you copy?  

Over.



I think you will find they refute YOUr current ANALysis quite FOOLishly.
  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3265
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: "Beat the King's Indian" by Jan Markos
Reply #84 - 01/15/09 at 14:25:29
Post Tools
sloughter wrote on 01/15/09 at 13:31:24:
 It is well known that some theoreticians play poorly and some strong players are weak theoreticians (great coaches are not necessarily great players). It is an entirely different mind set. Some players thrive on adrenaline and the thrill of combat; others prefer quiet study in the absence of stress. It's all a matter of taste.


Sure there are some differences, but it is obviously not "an entirely different mind set". There is a strong correlation between being a strong theoretician, a strong player and a strong trainer (in particular one who wants to give advice to strong players).

What kind of seconds did Anand and Kramnik select for their WCh match? GMs only. What a strange coincidence, given that Leko, Kasimdzhanov, Wojtaszek et al. didn't have to play a single, stressful game!? The simple reason is the more you understand of chess (including technical skills of opening preparation in this case) the better equipped you are to play OR analyze OR train someone.

Take your line 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nge2 0-0 6.b4?!. You appear surprised by 6...c5, even giving it '!!' in an earlier post. I risk the claim that 6..c5 is the first or second candidate move most strong KID players will consider. I could have spared you that hour of Fritz analysis and suggested 6...c5 in a second. It's natural to look for a way to punish White's weakening of the long diagonal, and I think black might already have the advantage.

Even an expert-level player sees this possibility instantly, because I've seen this kind of pseudo-sacrifice so many times. It's all about pattern recognition. Do you really want to dispute that this kind of intuition is a common factor in great players, trainers and analysts?
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Antillian
God Member
*****
Offline


Brilliance without dazzle!

Posts: 1757
Joined: 01/05/03
Gender: Male
Re: "Beat the King's Indian" by Jan Markos
Reply #83 - 01/15/09 at 13:51:36
Post Tools
Dear Great One Sloughter,

You don't need to listen to these infidels. They are all unbelievers. They are not worthy of your time. Your theories are too profound for their simple minds.
  

"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
sloughter
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 619
Location: schoharie
Joined: 12/29/08
Gender: Male
Re: "Beat the King's Indian" by Jan Markos
Reply #82 - 01/15/09 at 13:31:24
Post Tools
     I play terribly OTB (Although one of my games did make into the notes of one World Open). It is well known that some theoreticians play poorly and some strong players are weak theoreticians (great coaches are not necessarily great players). It is an entirely different mind set. Some players thrive on adrenaline and the thrill of combat; others prefer quiet study in the absence of stress. It's all a matter of taste. I only play well against computers, for example, winning two games against Fritz 8 because it saw a draw by repetition, but tried to claim the draw without moving its pieces. Twice it ran itself out of time. This is an obvious programming glitch. In the Berliner Variation, I forced Fritz 8 to sacrifice two Rooks for Bishop and pawn to avoid being mated in the middlegame, winning easily (At this point I will avoid a shameless plug for my book where the game is given in its entirety!) In the Wilkes Barre/Traxler (see the post under 1.e4 e5 for the score of the game Moody-Fritz 8), I tried to emulate Karpov, and, in one of the sharpest openings in chess, was about to win a Rook in the middlegame, so I took the liberty of resigning for Fritz.

     My theories in the Berliner Variation refute the theories of World Correspondence Champion Dr. Hans Berliner and World Champion Garry Kasparov which have persisted for decades---just check BCO 2. (see the post under 1.e4 e5 for the analysis of a key position. Dr. Berliner and Kasparov in BCO 2, have the starting position as good for Black; I was able to demonstrate two entirely different winning plans for White. IM Jeremy Silman commented that the position endorsed by Berliner and Kasparov, "sucks for Black")

    You are right that I don't play well OTB, but in the only blitz game I have ever played against a Grandmaster, I did manage to draw GM Alburt on the Black side of a Blumenfeld Counter Gambit over the phone. Lev later said that I stood better for most of the middlegame, but I decided not to get greedy (When you are a 1600 player and a GM offers you a draw, it is a good idea to take it!) 

And your point is?ghenghisclown wrote on 01/15/09 at 07:24:09:
MNb wrote on 01/14/09 at 13:24:40:
Sue him. A GM analysing like an amateur and an amateur analysing like a GM - that cannot remain unpunished.
But could you explain what the move f2-f4 against the Scandinavian has to do with beating the King's Indian?



Hilarious!! Might be most amusing thread ever on Chesspub. Since we refuted the KID and Sveshnikov, the question is: What will Radjabov be forced to play next?

As for Sloughter's "agenda" question, I only wish to have fun and point out certain facts. Actually, I didn't say anything remotely controversial in the post. I just stated facts. Although if you really want to get nasty, let's deal with some of your claims from your website:

Quote:
Many simple strategies are offered [in his book]and the level of complexity goes all the way from beginner up to complex strategies that only Karpov understands.


Uh huh, you read it right. Even forgetting the logical contradiction, somehow he put into the book stuff demonstrative of the very highest understanding of chess. And yet, I'd never heard of this guy outside this kind of discussion.

Quote:
Recently I completed a book called Magic. It is intended to supersede the work of Steinitz and Nimzovich. The book consists of four parts: 1)A review of Steinitz and Nimzovich, 2)An odds game against a stronger computer; I gave it nine moves in a row at the start of the game, an extra hour on the clock for every move and using my theories of chess, was able to checkmate the computer in 108 moves. Before I played my first move, I knew what I had to do to defeat the computer.


If I had that kind of ability, I'd enter and win the North American Open (using my incredibly clever 'theories' of chess) and then go score some IM norms in Europe or something.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ghenghisclown
God Member
*****
Offline


Pedicare Vestri Latin

Posts: 1022
Location: HollyWeird
Joined: 07/19/06
Gender: Male
Re: "Beat the King's Indian" by Jan Markos
Reply #81 - 01/15/09 at 07:24:09
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 01/14/09 at 13:24:40:
Sue him. A GM analysing like an amateur and an amateur analysing like a GM - that cannot remain unpunished.
But could you explain what the move f2-f4 against the Scandinavian has to do with beating the King's Indian?



Hilarious!! Might be most amusing thread ever on Chesspub. Since we refuted the KID and Sveshnikov, the question is: What will Radjabov be forced to play next?

As for Sloughter's "agenda" question, I only wish to have fun and point out certain facts. Actually, I didn't say anything remotely controversial in the post. I just stated facts. Although if you really want to get nasty, let's deal with some of your claims from your website:

Quote:
Many simple strategies are offered [in his book]and the level of complexity goes all the way from beginner up to complex strategies that only Karpov understands.


Uh huh, you read it right. Even forgetting the logical contradiction, somehow he put into the book stuff demonstrative of the very highest understanding of chess. And yet, I'd never heard of this guy outside this kind of discussion.

Quote:
Recently I completed a book called Magic. It is intended to supersede the work of Steinitz and Nimzovich. The book consists of four parts: 1)A review of Steinitz and Nimzovich, 2)An odds game against a stronger computer; I gave it nine moves in a row at the start of the game, an extra hour on the clock for every move and using my theories of chess, was able to checkmate the computer in 108 moves. Before I played my first move, I knew what I had to do to defeat the computer.


If I had that kind of ability, I'd enter and win the North American Open (using my incredibly clever 'theories' of chess) and then go score some IM norms in Europe or something.
  

"Experience is a dim lamp, which only lights the one who bears it."
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 11
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo