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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C39: KG Keisertsky line verdict? (Read 15027 times)
MNb
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Re: KG Keisertsky line verdict?
Reply #26 - 02/17/09 at 10:50:12
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Yes, but not when this new edition is a translation in a rather unimportant language.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: KG Keisertsky line verdict?
Reply #25 - 02/17/09 at 10:15:37
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I think every author is eager to include new ideas in new editions, no?
  
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MNb
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Re: KG Keisertsky line verdict?
Reply #24 - 02/17/09 at 03:31:46
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My compatriots forgot to mention that Het nieuwe Koningsgambiet is more up-to-date than the original German version. And Bücker was too modest to mention that he send fresh analysis to Siep Postma while the latter was busy translating.
Anyone who got it - like me - foster it, if only to make all those guys'n'dolls abroad jealous.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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Willempie
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Re: KG Keisertsky line verdict?
Reply #23 - 02/12/09 at 09:20:28
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kylemeister wrote on 02/11/09 at 17:51:15:
They translate German chess books into Dutch?  Who knew?

In the past that was often the only way to get a book in the bookstore (free market apparently doesnt apply to books). Even today when you buy a Harry Potter book here it is cheaper to buy the translated one.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: KG Keisertsky line verdict?
Reply #22 - 02/11/09 at 20:55:50
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Thx micawber!
Black isn't short of alternatives in this 9. Nc3 0-0 10. Ne4 line, as usual in the King's Gambit. In move 16, I had looked at three alternatives to 16...h6 (16...Kg7, 16...b5 and 16...Qd6). In move 12, Black can also try 12...Bxe5 or 12...Ng3. In each case White seemed to be OK. My main aim was to demonstrate that there is no advantage for Black. Which of the alternatives 9. Nc3 or 9. 0-0 or 6. Nxg4 gives White the best chances for an advantage in the "Keisertsky", uhm,  Kieseritzky, remains to be explored. These positions are all messy.
  
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micawber
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Re: KG Keisertsky line verdict?
Reply #21 - 02/11/09 at 19:31:54
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In the past they even translated dutch chess books into German! Wink

(from such obscure writers as Euwe and Timman)
  
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kylemeister
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Re: KG Keisertsky line verdict?
Reply #20 - 02/11/09 at 17:51:15
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They translate German chess books into Dutch?  Who knew?
  
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micawber
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Re: KG Keisertsky line verdict?
Reply #19 - 02/11/09 at 16:05:28
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Thx Stefan Buecker,

Dragonslayers reaction allready prompted me to order Kaissiber 33!.
And the extended analysis is certainly worth going through.

But it is appreciated that you revealed the main line of your additional analysis on Ne4,f5 to our forum!
I am still thinking about this line in particular, with some special attention to the Black's alternatives to move 12 (....Nxe5) and move 16 (...h6), of which I am not yet sure they are the strongest moves available. (since my overlooking ..Ng3 i've grown a bit more carefull
to what I post  Roll Eyes

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Despite many new developments I've still not thrown away my copy
of your book Das neue Konigsgambit (Dutch Translation). Smiley
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: KG Keisertsky line verdict?
Reply #18 - 02/11/09 at 11:43:24
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The strong 10. Ne2 Qe7! 11. Nxf4 Ng3! (refuting an important line in my "Over the Horizons" article) was found by Hans-Christian Eberl, Vienna. So I had to return to my laboratory. In Kaissiber #33, the main line runs as follows: 10. Ne4 f5 11. Ng5 Nd7 12. Qd3! Nxe5 13. dxe5 Bxe5 14. Bd2! Ng3 15. 0-0-0 Nxh1 16. Rxh1 h6 17. Bb4! (continued to move 28) and White has sufficient compensation. - My result, in a nutshell, was that both 9. Nc3 and 9. 0-0 are fully playable for White. Even the old 6 Nxg4!? is still alive and kicking. Only 6. d4? seems to give Black a clear advantage.
  
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micawber
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Re: KG Keisertsky line verdict?
Reply #17 - 02/02/09 at 04:44:41
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On the variation with 10.Ne4

* * * * * * * *
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* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
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*

Two small additions on the discussion between Craig Evans and Dragonslayer.
I agree that 10...f5! is probably the strongest move.
The only practical example I have didnt continu 11.Ng5 but
11.Nxd6,cxd6 12.Nd3,Re8 13.Kf2,Re4 14.c3,Nd7 15.Bd2
15....Qf6 (Even 15..Qe7 looks good, increasing the pressure with moves like Ng3/Nb6)
16.a3, Rxd4  (Black can also consider playing 16...Nb6 17.Bb3,Rxd4)
17.cxd4,Qxd4 =+
(Nocci-Zylla, ICCF, 2007)

Black has a backup variation in 10...Re8 (iso 10...f5) which has been tested a bit in practice.
10.....  Re8
11.0-0,
      (10.Kf2??,Bxe5 11.dxe5,Rxe5 -+ Reaux-Krysiak, corr. 1997)
11......, Bxe5
12.dxe, Rxe5
13.Ng5, Qd6!
 (13....h6? 14.Nxf7!! +- (Hanison-Loomis, corr.2003)
14.Qd4, Nc6  
15.Qf2 , Nb4  
 (unclear; Eberl-Kayis, ICCF champ.league, 2007; 15...Ne7 is an untested alternative)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE SECOND PART OF THE KG-SURVEY HAS BEEN POSTED IN THE E4E5 SUBSCRIPTION AREA

E4E5-subscribers,
I would welcome some reactions (and please message/PM corrections and/or questions)
  
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Dragonslayer
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Re: KG Keisertsky line verdict?
Reply #16 - 01/31/09 at 15:07:32
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Yes 11...Nd7!? 12.Ne6 Qe7 is playable and likely ot be better for Black. So White has to play something else at move 12...
After 9.Bxf4 Nh5 10.g3 f6 11.Nxg4 Qe8+ White has to better moves than 12.Kf2. One you will find in the corr game Grasso-Pampa, 1992-95, which went 12.Kd2. But beware that Black has at least two improvements over this game. 12...Nxf4 13.gxf4 Bxf4+ 14.Kc3 and White is better. Instead Black should play 13...Qe4! which is probably =+
Here too, White has a better try at move 12. If you try every legal move you will find it.
There is also an Italian version of Kaissiber, but none in English so far.
Btw. Last time I had 3...g5 I tried 4.Nc3 since my opponent had clearly prepared something (4.h4 g4 5.Ne5 d6 6.Nxg4 Be7 as it turned out. THis line has been neglected, but all White gets is compensation for a pawn in the endgame after 7.d4 Bxh4+ 8.Nf2 Qg5).
  
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CraigEvans
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Re: KG Keisertsky line verdict?
Reply #15 - 01/30/09 at 13:00:15
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Yes, maybe I discarded 9.Bf4 too early, though I still think that in the main line with 9...Nh5 10.g3 f6 11.Nxg4 Qe8+ 12.Kf2 Nxf4 13.gxf4 Qe4 14.Rg1 Qxf4+ 15.Qf3 Qxd4+ 16.Ne3+ Kh8 17.Nc3, 17...Re8 looks pretty strong to me, despte black's dormant q-side. Anyone care to defend white's side on this one - if white really is struggling in this line too, then white is forced into looking at 10.Ne4.

As for 10.Ne4, looks like I need to get myself a copy of Kaissiber 33 (and an understanding of german - I bought a previous edition for an article on an offbeat alekhine line, and found it very difficult to navigate without being able to speak the language). I'm guessing 10...f5 11.Ng5 has to be critical, where Rybka 3 (Henceforth known as opening-killer) has come up with the incredible 11...Nd7!?, with the line 12.Ne6 Qe7 13.Nxf8 Kxf8 which it considers as very much better for black - and indeed despite the exchange defecit, the k-side pawns and lead in development looks pretty scary for white. Anyone care to point out where white's improvement is (I think, if 13.Nxf8 is unplayable, that shows that this line must be in pretty bad shape), as I really don't want to accept the 3.Nf3 KG to be dead!
  

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Dragonslayer
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Re: KG Keisertsky line verdict?
Reply #14 - 01/29/09 at 23:47:28
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CraigEvans wrote on 01/29/09 at 19:25:45:
As far as I can see, the 6.Bc4 line is still busted. I am a huge fan of Stefan Bucker, but he very often skips over or ignores completely lines which go against his articles or suggestions, and with his Over The Horizons article (that gave me so much hope that I might be able to play 3.Nf3 with some confidence) there is sadly no change from this pattern.

After 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.h4 g4 5.Ne5 Nf6 6.Bc4 d5 7.exd5 Bd6 8.d4 O-O! [8...Nh5 transposes in the next move, but I think this is more accurate] 9.Nc3 [Else 9.Bxf4? Nh5! and black is already getting the upper hand] Nh5 10.Ne2 and now Bucker gives 10...Qe7 an '?', giving 11.Nxf4 Nxf4 and yadda, yadda, yadda...

However, after 11.Nxf4, 11...Ng3! seems to give white a huge headache. Maybe I'm missing something. Mayble Rybka is missing something. But neither me nor my trusty cyber-friend are able to find much to keep white afloat here. The only shot seems to be 12.Ne6!, but after 12...fxe6 13.Qxg4+ Qg7 14.dxe6 Qxg4 15.Nxg4 b5!!, white just seems busted to me, with a guaranteed material disadvantage and black's pieces swarming rather nicely. Even if the Rf1 survives, it's gonna be embarrassed... And white's alternatives on move 12 seem even less prospectful.

I hope one of you can point out in which way I'm being an idiot this time, but sadly I fear that the hope over 6.Bc4 is very short-lived. Any ideas?


I also think you're right - not in being an idiot of course  Wink - but in your variations.
Actually 8...0-0 is thought to be inaccurate since it allows 9.Bxf4 Nh5 10.g3 f6 11.Nxg4, in addition to the transposition 9.Nc3 Nh5.
If I recall correctly, Bücker mentioned in his ChessCafe article that certain "experts" disgreed with him in recommending 10.Ne2, preferring instead 10.Ne4.
There is a greatly expanded version of the Over the Horizons article in the recent Kaissiber 33, which contains exactly the refutation (11...Ng3! etc) of 10.Ne2 that you mention, and includes analysis of 10.Ne4 - here White seems to hold the balance, as well as 7...Bg7, 6.Nxg4 and 6.d4. On top of that there is a nice article by Henk Smout on a number of variations after 5...Nf6.
I have also looked at all these lines and came to the conclusion that 8...0-0 9.Bxf4 is playable
8...Nh5 9.Nc3 0-0 (or 8...0-0 9.Nc3 Nh5) 10.Ne4 is about equal (this line was discussed here on Chesspub in October), while 10.Ne2 is clearly better for Black. The alternatives as move 11 are dismissed in Kaissiber 33, including 11.0-0 f3!, 11.Bxf4, 11.Qd3, and 11.Bd3.
I would suggest the line 10.Ne4 f5 11.Ng5 needs serious testing.
  
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micawber
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Re: KG Keisertsky line verdict?
Reply #13 - 01/29/09 at 20:29:09
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@[Craig Evans]

I think youre right ......and Rybka too  Smiley, Thx, for sharing this line with us.
This refutation makes Black's task considerably easier.
I confess I completely overlooked ....Ng3 myself, apperently hypnotised by Buckers beautifull variation.....
As it is I dont see any improvements for White, but I merely point out that they must be on either move 12 or 13 as, Black also can maintain his advantage with 14.....Re8 or even 15.....Kh8.

Also 10...Qe7 11.0-0 is not very promising:
11....f3! 12.Nxf4,Qxh4 (again 12....Ng3 is very good as well)
13.Nxh5,Qxh5 14.gxf3,f6 15.fxg4,Qh4 =+ (Martinez Sanchez-Peetoom, ICCF,2006)
  
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CraigEvans
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Re: KG Keisertsky line verdict?
Reply #12 - 01/29/09 at 19:25:45
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As far as I can see, the 6.Bc4 line is still busted. I am a huge fan of Stefan Bucker, but he very often skips over or ignores completely lines which go against his articles or suggestions, and with his Over The Horizons article (that gave me so much hope that I might be able to play 3.Nf3 with some confidence) there is sadly no change from this pattern.

After 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.h4 g4 5.Ne5 Nf6 6.Bc4 d5 7.exd5 Bd6 8.d4 O-O! [8...Nh5 transposes in the next move, but I think this is more accurate] 9.Nc3 [Else 9.Bxf4? Nh5! and black is already getting the upper hand] Nh5 10.Ne2 and now Bucker gives 10...Qe7 an '?', giving 11.Nxf4 Nxf4 and yadda, yadda, yadda...

However, after 11.Nxf4, 11...Ng3! seems to give white a huge headache. Maybe I'm missing something. Mayble Rybka is missing something. But neither me nor my trusty cyber-friend are able to find much to keep white afloat here. The only shot seems to be 12.Ne6!, but after 12...fxe6 13.Qxg4+ Qg7 14.dxe6 Qxg4 15.Nxg4 b5!!, white just seems busted to me, with a guaranteed material disadvantage and black's pieces swarming rather nicely. Even if the Rf1 survives, it's gonna be embarrassed... And white's alternatives on move 12 seem even less prospectful.

I hope one of you can point out in which way I'm being an idiot this time, but sadly I fear that the hope over 6.Bc4 is very short-lived. Any ideas?
  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

"If others have seen further than me, it is because giants have been standing on my shoulders."
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