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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski (Read 60701 times)
Ender
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #52 - 02/18/09 at 11:02:15
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After Qx4  Bd7 looks good for black, since dxe5 d5 gives black good game
  

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Odd Gunnar Malin
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #51 - 02/18/09 at 00:03:51
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After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3  Nc6 3.Bb5  f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4  Nf6 6.Nxf6+ Qxf6  7.Qe2 Be7  8.Bxc6 bxc6 the Sweedish GM Emanuel Berg tried 9.d4 in Gibraltar this month. Something went wrong with his preparation and he had to fight for a draw. When looking at the game that went 9...Qg6 10.O-O d6 11.dxe5 the move 11.Qc4 looked like a good alternative.

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I analyzed this a bit but are new to this opening so there is probably something wrong in my analysis but for me it looks like Black have problem getting any play.
The best line I found (with computer help, 11.Qc4 haven't been played as far as I know) was 11...d5 12.Qc3 e4 13.Ne5 Qe6 14.Qxc6 Qxc6 15.Nxc6 and White is a healthy pawn up. I tried many other lines for Black but all seems to be even worse to me, then I have never played the Black side of the Schliemann and have no idea how he expect to counterattack.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #50 - 02/17/09 at 22:34:59
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Ender wrote on 02/17/09 at 09:34:46:
TopNotch wrote on 02/17/09 at 02:01:14:
All of this brings me back to the mainline of this post: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3  Nc6 3.Bb5  f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4  Nf6 6.Nxf6+ Qxf6  7.Qe2 Be7  8.Bxc6 bxc6! 9.Qxe5 now here's the shocker, rather than 9...c5, I actually think that 9...Qf7!? could be black's most challenging response. The great oracle, Khalifman, in his by now fabled OFWATA series, does not think highly of 9...Qf7 and suggests that White simply grab another pawn with 10.Qxc7(!) however things are not so clear after 10...0-0 11.d3 Bb4+!? [Unmentioned in OFWATA] the key idea being to meet the obvious 12.c3 with 12...Qg6! after which its game on.





Hi!
The line You advocating is mentioned in Gambiteer 2 (quite ood book) but better is 10.d3 0-0 11.Qxc7 Qe6 12 Qe5 (Niemi-Aulaskari corr 1975) and 17.Kd2 is improvement over the actual game. Black is lost there. But I think bxc6!? line is more playable than dxc6.


So isn't 11...Bb4+ just a transposition to the line I mentioned?

Toppy Smiley
  

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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #49 - 02/17/09 at 16:33:08
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2nd norm for Sabino
  
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Ender
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #48 - 02/17/09 at 09:34:46
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TopNotch wrote on 02/17/09 at 02:01:14:
All of this brings me back to the mainline of this post: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3  Nc6 3.Bb5  f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4  Nf6 6.Nxf6+ Qxf6  7.Qe2 Be7  8.Bxc6 bxc6! 9.Qxe5 now here's the shocker, rather than 9...c5, I actually think that 9...Qf7!? could be black's most challenging response. The great oracle, Khalifman, in his by now fabled OFWATA series, does not think highly of 9...Qf7 and suggests that White simply grab another pawn with 10.Qxc7(!) however things are not so clear after 10...0-0 11.d3 Bb4+!? [Unmentioned in OFWATA] the key idea being to meet the obvious 12.c3 with 12...Qg6! after which its game on.





Hi!
The line You advocating is mentioned in Gambiteer 2 (quite ood book) but better is 10.d3 0-0 11.Qxc7 Qe6 12 Qe5 (Niemi-Aulaskari corr 1975) and 17.Kd2 is improvement over the actual game. Black is lost there. But I think bxc6!? line is more playable than dxc6.
  

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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #47 - 02/17/09 at 06:10:59
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Will it add confidence to potential buyers with this piece of news:
http://tournaments.chessdom.com/cannes-chess-festival-2009

IM Sabino Brunello achieves GM norm (1st? 2nd? 3rd?)
  

http://www.toutautre.blogspot.com/
A Year With Nessie ...... aka GM John Shaw's The King's Gambit (http://thekinggambit.blogspot.com.au/)
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #46 - 02/17/09 at 03:25:36
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Yep, I bore witness to that Greet-Lyell game, and White's choice of 4. Nc3 ahead of his own recommended 4. d3, followed by discussions involving various people as to why Nc3 isn't perhaps as strong as generally thought. It left me wearied.

It's a bit of a pain not to be able to sit down and face the Schliemann with confidence, especially as there are at least two strong opponents I usually face in a season who play it regularly.

It'll be nice to see what might be coming my way soon, in Mr Brunello's book.
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #45 - 02/17/09 at 02:51:20
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Thanks Toppy for those insights, though it'll be a strange day for chess when 3...f5 is held to be adequate against 3.Bb5.  If it's anywhere near as challenging as you say, 1...e5 and 3...f5 should be in everyone's repertoire, just to threaten the occasional rip-off.
  

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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #44 - 02/17/09 at 02:01:14
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Ender wrote on 02/06/09 at 15:26:40:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3  Nc6 3.Bb5  f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4  Nf6 6.Nxf6+ Qxf6  7.Qe2 Be7  8.Bxc6 bxc6! (8..dc6?! looks like a play for a draw, and you must be strong player just to hold a draw... it's unpractical) 9.Qxe5 c5 10.O-O Bb7 11.Re1 ! as sugested by Khalifman is better for white.


I agree with Ender that 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3  Nc6 3.Bb5  f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4  Nf6 6.Nxf6+ Qxf6  7.Qe2 Be7  8.Bxc6 bxc6! may well be Black's best chance in the Schliemann, and although it is still early days yet I have been unable to find a line for White that I am totally satisfied with. But more about that later.

Funny how life imitates art, a recent unpleasant experience in the 4.d3 Schliemann variation forced me to take a long hard look at these 4.Nc3 lines. I noticed that another 4.d3 advocate, Andrew Greet, has also been forced to do the same recently .

I'm still examining the 4.Nc3 lines but my findings are disturbing, that is if your'e White. Many positions have not been assessed properly in the theory books, resulting in Black's resources being completely underestimated.

All of this brings me back to the mainline of this post: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3  Nc6 3.Bb5  f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4  Nf6 6.Nxf6+ Qxf6  7.Qe2 Be7  8.Bxc6 bxc6! 9.Qxe5 now here's the shocker, rather than 9...c5, I actually think that 9...Qf7!? could be black's most challenging response. The great oracle, Khalifman, in his by now fabled OFWATA series, does not think highly of 9...Qf7 and suggests that White simply grab another pawn with 10.Qxc7(!) however things are not so clear after 10...0-0 11.d3 Bb4+!? [Unmentioned in OFWATA] the key idea being to meet the obvious 12.c3 with 12...Qg6! after which its game on.

All this makes me speculate on just how deep does Radjabov's Schliemann prep go, and whether its time for me to abandon the Ruy in favor of the Four Knights Game.  Cry  

And they say chess is played out.  Roll Eyes

Toppy Smiley


  

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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #43 - 02/11/09 at 10:44:32
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micawber wrote on 02/11/09 at 08:05:34:
So I think I will go with the other upcoming Marshall book first, and wait for the reviews.


You are refering to http://www.everymanchess.com/chess/books/Fighting_the_Ruy_Lopez

Fighting the Ruy Lopez
by Milos Pavlovic

The Ruy Lopez is incredibly common at all levels of chess, and everyone who plays 1 e4 e5 as Black needs to have a reliable antidote to this powerful opening. In this book, Grandmaster and Lopez expert Milos Pavlovic provides the answer. Drawing upon his many years of experience facing the Lopez, Pavlovic devises a sound and yet ambitious repertoire for Black, the basis of which is provided by the legendary and ever-popular Marshall Attack. The Marshall is a perfect weapon, as it avoids passive positions and the so-called 'Spanish torture'of many other variations. Furthermore, Black's tactical and positional objectives are usually clear-cut, and often involve a plan of direct attack against the white king.

*A complete repertoire against the Ruy Lopez

*Covers the typical plans for both sides

*Emphasizes crucial tactical ideas

*Packed with original analysis.

Published March 2009 EU, April 2009 US | ISBN 9781857445909
Format Paperback, 192 pages


  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #42 - 02/11/09 at 08:05:34
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@RogerWilliamson

I agree with your post, most players will avoid the Marshall in a serious OTB game.
I also fully agree with your assesment of the recent Quality Chess books
(Avrukh 1.d4, Cox The Berlin). Also Marin's books (even though I dont agree with the analysis in several chapters of his e4e5 rep, esp. the KGD). His best is still Learn from the Legends imho (also a Q C publication of course!.
In fact the only Quality Chess book I found slightly dissapointing was Lund's book on Rook vs. 2 Minor pieces. I think the editors should have seen to a sounder balance between general coverage and the extensive analysis of positions of only two opening lines.
As for Lalic Everyman book on the Marshall, this was indeed horrible.

Still I am hesitant about Brunello's book, because in judging compensation experience counts as well. As I posted earlier Brunello's game record (0,5/5) is not terrible convincing. So I think I will go with the other upcoming Marshall book first, and wait for the reviews.


Anyway, Quality Chess will still make a dent in my chess book budget, as the second volume of Avrukh is also on my list.  Undecided

And of course Shaw's yet to be written book on the King's Gambit as well.  Smiley

By the way Mr. Aagaard,
is there any hope of B. Avrukh doing a Grunfeld Black Repertoire for QC?
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #41 - 02/10/09 at 22:33:07
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 I too dabbled with the line in blitz, and it proved almost impossible to lose with the opening in the 5 minute pool on ICC, such was the unfamiliarity with a line assumed to be rubbish.  I garnered alot of verbal abuse as a bonus.  Alas, whenever I threatened the Marshall in serious games I was denied a chance to try it, and left wishing I'd played 7... d6 instead of 7... 0-0.

 In blitz I never once reached the critical position examined by Bucker in the double bishop sacrifice line: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. 0-0 Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 0-0 8. c3 d5 9. ed e4 10. dc6 exf3 11. Qxf3 Bg4 12. Qg3 Re8 13. f3 Bd6 14. Qf2 Rxe1+ 15. Qxe1 Bxf3 16. gxf3 Bxh2+ 17. KxB Qd3 18. Qe3 Qf5 19. d4 Re8 20. Kg2 RxQ 21. BxR  which didn't look pleasant for Black either in the Bucker article or on the chessboard at home.

  The much maligned Lalic book on the Marshall, from what I recall, had a spectacularly awful chapter on the Steiner gambit.  A chapter in which satisfactory Black tries were assessed (if they were ever actually analyzed) as losing, and troubling lines as pleasant.  The book has long since departed my collection.  Probably I do it an injustice, but I can't say I miss it.

  I wouldn't be surprised, or particularly disappointed, if this backwater didn't appear in Mr. Brunello's book.  No doubt I'll end my moratorium on purchasing chess books in order to buy both this and Pavlovic's book.  The latter because, unlike most books on the Marshall, which tend to offer a survey, it supposedly offers a repertoire.  I doubt I'd utilize it, but it at least promises to be fresh enough to read.

  As a Quality Chess Book the Brunello volume is an obvious pre-order as well - especially if, like me, the Schliemann is the bane of your chess playing life.
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #40 - 02/10/09 at 20:51:06
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Roger Williamson wrote on 02/10/09 at 11:43:36:
 What would be the point?  Working ceaselessly for nearly an hour, assisted by fritz8, I have busted all 3 lines.  I invite you all to bicker with me for the next 2 months.

 On a slightly more serious note, will there be coverage of the Steiner line in the Marshall?  Just been going over the relevant Stefan Bucker articles on chesscafe...


You had me going there for a while; I thought we had another sloughter.  "Working ceaselessly for almost an hour" is quite rich!
  

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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #39 - 02/10/09 at 12:04:51
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Roger Williamson wrote on 02/10/09 at 11:43:36:
 What would be the point?  Working ceaselessly for nearly an hour, assisted by fritz8, I have busted all 3 lines.  I invite you all to bicker with me for the next 2 months.

 On a slightly more serious note, will there be coverage of the Steiner line in the Marshall?  Just been going over the relevant Stefan Bucker articles on chesscafe...


I also looked at these articles and was compelled to give them a twirl online. Sharp stuff that can throw your opponent off quite fast. On the downside: in some of the lines I had the feeling the best black could hope for was a perpetual.

One of those variations against which white can claim to be beter but not very easy to play against otb in my opinion. 
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #38 - 02/10/09 at 12:01:30
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Quote:
We have to announce the number of pages long before the books are out. Have none of you ever noticed that the Avrukh book is not 320 pages or Beat the KID not 176?

We will know how big the book is about 3-5 weeks before publication, which will mean in 2-3 weeks from now.


I think Rossia point are understandable taking on account the volume of pages of Chess Explained books and the late Everyman direction 
Undecided   
I have Grandmaster series of B.Avrukh and it is a great book, the best repertoire book I saw, but I was a bit sceptical about this series when I receive Beat the KID (3 systems 194 pages) but my deep love for the KID speak louder.  Roll Eyes  I think Quality Chess have a name to defend as the number one and I hope to see more books in the Grandmaster series like the Avrukh one and one book one system like the great Berlin Wall or Sveshnikov Reloaded.  Smiley
  

It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses.  It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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