Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 6
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski (Read 47047 times)
Fromper
Senior Member
****
Offline


GrandPatzer

Posts: 372
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Joined: 03/12/10
Gender: Male
Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #82 - 03/15/10 at 14:16:43
Post Tools
Schroeder wrote on 03/15/10 at 05:26:06:
I own Ivan Sokolov's "The Ruy Lopez Revisited", which is probably the most recent and most recommendable book on the Schliemann. There is another thread on this book in this forum.

Ah, thanks. I found that thread, and the book looks interesting.

I like the fact that it also covers some other non-mainstream Ruy Lopez lines. I've been trying to play the Chigorin, but at my level (1700's), trying to play against slightly better players, I find that they know more of the theory than I do. Besides, I'm not that good at positional games - I'd rather play something sharper and more tactical for now. This book seems like it would have a few suggestions for fun ways to avoid the main lines.
  

GrandPatzer!!!

1777 peak USCF rating - currently 1620 from coming back rusty
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Schroeder
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 89
Location: Hamburg
Joined: 03/28/08
Gender: Male
Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #81 - 03/15/10 at 05:26:06
Post Tools
I own Ivan Sokolov's "The Ruy Lopez Revisited", which is probably the most recent and most recommendable book on the Schliemann. There is another thread on this book in this forum.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Fromper
Senior Member
****
Offline


GrandPatzer

Posts: 372
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Joined: 03/12/10
Gender: Male
Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #80 - 03/15/10 at 04:35:48
Post Tools
realpolitik wrote on 02/18/10 at 22:58:48:
Brunelli has fairly good coverage of the Schliemann but it is true he completely ignores 5...d5 in the Nc3 lines. Maybe he just doesnt have faith in it however after his suggestion of 5...Nf6 its not particularly difficult for black to end up in a line where he cannot hope for more than a draw. I think that if you plan to play the Schliemann against weaker players you are going to need to spend some time looking at 5...d5 and perhaps one of the sidelines there. Its too easy for even a much weaker player to garner a draw against Nf6. Having said that my only outing with this line so far in a game played with classical time controls I reached dead equality out of the opening but managed to win the game in the end partly helped by the amount of time my opponent used in the early stages of the game. I guess there is always some scope to outplay your opponent (unless the position is a trivial forced draw) but I don't think you could play the line advocated by Brunello on a regular basis without coming up against players who will make an early draw and there is little you can do about it as black.

I was thinking of getting this book, because I was curious about the Schliemann, which I really don't know anything about. So would this not be the best book for that? Someone else in this thread mentioned Gambiteer II as another book that covers the Schliemann. For someone who doesn't know the Schliemann at all, what would be the best first reference to buy?
  

GrandPatzer!!!

1777 peak USCF rating - currently 1620 from coming back rusty
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
realpolitik
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 66
Joined: 01/15/07
Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #79 - 02/18/10 at 22:58:48
Post Tools
Brunelli has fairly good coverage of the Schliemann but it is true he completely ignores 5...d5 in the Nc3 lines. Maybe he just doesnt have faith in it however after his suggestion of 5...Nf6 its not particularly difficult for black to end up in a line where he cannot hope for more than a draw. I think that if you plan to play the Schliemann against weaker players you are going to need to spend some time looking at 5...d5 and perhaps one of the sidelines there. Its too easy for even a much weaker player to garner a draw against Nf6. Having said that my only outing with this line so far in a game played with classical time controls I reached dead equality out of the opening but managed to win the game in the end partly helped by the amount of time my opponent used in the early stages of the game. I guess there is always some scope to outplay your opponent (unless the position is a trivial forced draw) but I don't think you could play the line advocated by Brunello on a regular basis without coming up against players who will make an early draw and there is little you can do about it as black.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schroeder
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 89
Location: Hamburg
Joined: 03/28/08
Gender: Male
Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #78 - 02/18/10 at 01:59:30
Post Tools
I am mainly interested in the Schliemann, and I do not (yet) have Brunelli's book.
Is it true that he completely ignores the Schliemann main line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 d5 (this is what I exclusively played so far)?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Papageno
Senior Member
****
Offline


FM

Posts: 299
Location: Germany
Joined: 06/12/08
Gender: Male
Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #77 - 08/06/09 at 14:21:22
Post Tools
I think there are two reasons for this.
  • With 7... 0-0 Black indicates that he might be playing the Marshall. This immediately makes some white players do something to avoid the main lines and Marshall possibility. Hence 8. a4 for example.
  • After 7... d6 white players don't feel the pressure to avoid main lines. In addition, Black can answer here 8. a4 Bg4 with good counterplay. This is what Marin ("A Spanish Repertoire for Black") recommends to do.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BobbyDigital80
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 333
Joined: 05/15/08
Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #76 - 08/06/09 at 11:13:24
Post Tools
Roger Williamson wrote on 02/10/09 at 22:33:07:
 I too dabbled with the line in blitz, and it proved almost impossible to lose with the opening in the 5 minute pool on ICC, such was the unfamiliarity with a line assumed to be rubbish.  I garnered alot of verbal abuse as a bonus.  Alas, whenever I threatened the Marshall in serious games I was denied a chance to try it, and left wishing I'd played 7... d6 instead of 7... 0-0.

 In blitz I never once reached the critical position examined by Bucker in the double bishop sacrifice line: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. 0-0 Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 0-0 8. c3 d5 9. ed e4 10. dc6 exf3 11. Qxf3 Bg4 12. Qg3 Re8 13. f3 Bd6 14. Qf2 Rxe1+ 15. Qxe1 Bxf3 16. gxf3 Bxh2+ 17. KxB Qd3 18. Qe3 Qf5 19. d4 Re8 20. Kg2 RxQ 21. BxR  which didn't look pleasant for Black either in the Bucker article or on the chessboard at home.

  The much maligned Lalic book on the Marshall, from what I recall, had a spectacularly awful chapter on the Steiner gambit.  A chapter in which satisfactory Black tries were assessed (if they were ever actually analyzed) as losing, and troubling lines as pleasant.  The book has long since departed my collection.  Probably I do it an injustice, but I can't say I miss it.

  I wouldn't be surprised, or particularly disappointed, if this backwater didn't appear in Mr. Brunello's book.  No doubt I'll end my moratorium on purchasing chess books in order to buy both this and Pavlovic's book.  The latter because, unlike most books on the Marshall, which tend to offer a survey, it supposedly offers a repertoire.  I doubt I'd utilize it, but it at least promises to be fresh enough to read.

  As a Quality Chess Book the Brunello volume is an obvious pre-order as well - especially if, like me, the Schliemann is the bane of your chess playing life.


Howcome white never plays 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 d6 8.a4
Why is a4 good against 7...0-0 but not 7...d6?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ANDREW BRETT
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 622
Joined: 07/07/06
Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #75 - 07/29/09 at 07:57:05
Post Tools
Harvey I wouldn't be surprised if you put this book out of business as these lines seem made for computer analysis !!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Harvey Williamson
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 193
Location: Media City, UK
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #74 - 07/28/09 at 16:50:07
Post Tools
This months update, for Gold Plus members, on opening trends in Computer Chess features the Gajewski. I bought the Brunello book after writing the update. I am happy to see that he does not mention the winning line I think I have found for White.  Grin
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
micawber
God Member
*****
Offline


like many sneaks and skunks
in history he's a poet

Posts: 852
Location: Netherlands
Joined: 09/07/05
Gender: Male
Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #73 - 07/27/09 at 09:51:51
Post Tools
Since last week I studied Brunello's book on the Marshall and examined the main line and the variations starting with 12.d3, Bd6 13.Re1, Bf5.
(Brunello doesnt cover 13...Qh4).

One important position that can arise after 13....Bf5 14.Qf3,Re8
(Brunello and Pavlovic also cover 14...Qh4).
is the following

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

Now play continues:
19....Nf6
And here Brunello uncorks his 'Novelty'
20.Qxc6       (Previously 20.Bd1 was played in Stellwagen-Gustaffson, 2008)

By coincidence I had come to the same conclusion at the beginning of this year when I send my comments on this game to Viktor Mikhalevski (who runs the e4e5 subscribers section) in reaction to his november update. I gave the following analysis:
20....Rd8 21.Qb6,Rd7 22.Bc2,Ng4 23.Rb1,Qe2 24.Bd2,Ne5 25.Qe3
Here my analysis stopped, concluding that white is better.
Viktor Mikhalevski was kind enough to reply to my mail, and confirm my analyses.

Brunello continues:
25....Qh5! 26.Bd1,Qf5 27.Be2,f6

However neither Brunello nor I can claim this novelty.
The honours go to the strong corr. player J.Novak.
The correspondence game Novak-Chopin 2008 reached this position (and the analysis provided above duplicates their moves from move 20 up till move 27). The game ended in a draw after 40 moves.

In this case I really cant blame Brunello for not having noticed this game. It entered my database around april this year, clearly too late to include in the manuscript.

Brunello's analysis of this game illustrates both the strength and the weaknesses of his treatment.
Strength
His treatment is much more comprehensive than Pavlovic. He spends no less than three pages of (reasonably fine printed) analysis on this game. And he makes very few errors i his analysis.
Weakness
The dense analyses trees are void of verbal explanations, which will make it hard for less experienced players to appreciate what is going on.
Also in several end positions of analytic lines I do not agree with his judgement on the endgame positions.
Finally he seems to prefer complicated lines a bit over more simple positional solutions.

Still I can fully recommend his book and his treatment on the Marshall. In general it is excellent, and very much better than I expected.
However for those taking up the Marshall for the first time, with a view to playing this OTB I would recommend Pavlovic, because of the instructional value of his verbal comments, and his better explanation of the anti-Marshall. In OTB it is hardly practical to try to remember tropical forests of variations running far beyond the 30th move

-------------------------------------------------------------------
One example where I dont agree with Brunello's endgame judgement:
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

We are allready at move 34 in one of the sidelines of the above mentioned variation:
Brunello stops here and gives 34...Kf8 as equal.
I disagree:
After 35.h6! Black still has to work very hard to reach a draw.
If Black plays 35....gxh 36.b3+=
White can reach a rook endgame with a free b-pawn, where Black has no counter play on the king-side. On top of that his shattered  king-side is suddenly vulnerable to infiltration by white's pieces (using the b-pawn as a decoy)
If Black plays 35...g6 then 36 Rc8+,Ke7 37.Rh8 spells trouble.

The right move is 34...h6 with a typical draw, as now Black threatens to restore material equality picking up the h-pawn.
Then he is ready to commence counter-play with g5/Kg6 etc..

A sample variation:
34...h6! 35.Rh4,Rd2 36.Ra4, Rd5=

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
micawber
God Member
*****
Offline


like many sneaks and skunks
in history he's a poet

Posts: 852
Location: Netherlands
Joined: 09/07/05
Gender: Male
Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #72 - 07/27/09 at 07:36:02
Post Tools
When discussing the new Marshall Books, it seems appropriate to mention that one of the great contributors to the Marshall theory
has died recently.
Janis Vitomskis, has passed away on 25 juni 2009 at the age of 72.
He generously shared his wisdom in many outstanding theoretical surveys on the CD-ROM The Total Marshall (co-authored with Tim Harding). But he allready was there when the basic theory of the Marshall was formed, co-authoring the section together with M.Tal for the first edition of ECO-C.
As a CC-GM he never became a world champion (though he was a finalist in the WC XV) but at least he won the European Championship once.

Some posts up, you can see how his analytic work certainly could compete with that of the new masters and Marshall authors. Both in depth as in originality.

Browsing through his games I also found an excellent defence in a difficult endgame which he drew against Ulf Anderson.
« Last Edit: 07/27/09 at 09:27:21 by micawber »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schaakhamster
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 650
Joined: 05/13/08
Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #71 - 07/22/09 at 19:55:15
Post Tools
well it isn't the first time and probably not the last time that strong OTB-players:

(A) do not own nor use every avaible source know to man
(B) Disregard correspondence chess

when writing openingbooks.

I don't really mind actually. Too many books just go: X gives moves ABC and claims U. I think it is more interesting to see what the author himself thinks.

My impression is that most GM's don't really rely on theoretical evaluations but more on their own assessments.

I do agree that sources should be listed and I think that a publisher should demand an author lists them.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
micawber
God Member
*****
Offline


like many sneaks and skunks
in history he's a poet

Posts: 852
Location: Netherlands
Joined: 09/07/05
Gender: Male
Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #70 - 07/22/09 at 15:05:24
Post Tools
I have the book since yesterday. And I must admit the treatment of the Marshall looks reasonable good, although I certainly prefer Pavlovic on the anti-Marshall.

Brunello also does not list his sources, but it seems certain
(A) that he didnt consult Tim Harding's CD The Total Marshall
(B) his databse wasn't complete in respect to correspondence games.

An example:
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

Brunello writes
"Amazingly, so far nobody seems to have noticed that Black can win by force with 20...Nxe3"  (page 198 Side variation 20.Bd1)

Well Mr. Brunello, GM Vitomskis certainly noticed it in 2002 in his Survey
on Tim Harding's CD. But the move was played as early as 1966: Callens-Nygyesi, corr.game.
In fact I found no less than 6 different games in my database where 20...Nxe3 was played!

So I would reply: "Amazingly Brunello failed to find any of the references above".
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
micawber
God Member
*****
Offline


like many sneaks and skunks
in history he's a poet

Posts: 852
Location: Netherlands
Joined: 09/07/05
Gender: Male
Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #69 - 07/17/09 at 04:36:29
Post Tools
There is a difference however:
Pavlovic devotes more space to the anti-Marshall lines (70 pages) than Brunello (30 pages). This is very sensible because, in practice you will face the anti-Marshall at least as much as the proper Marshall.
As I have mentioned earlier, his explanations are very good.
This is especially true about the anti-Marshall, where each system is preceded by an outline of the typical ideas for both sides.
I think that Pavlovic succeeded to produce a good coverage of the marshall and anti-marshall lines for his repertoire  in 130 pages.
His experience in playing he Marshall himself shows in his treatment.
I think I will buy Brunello's book as well, but I would be surprised if his coverage reaches the same quality level (after all his experience with the (anti)Marshall is limited).

I've played the Marshall both OTB and in correspondence for a long time, and posted several games in this section.

For some additional notes on Pavlovic book see:
www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1233238393/15#15
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ghenghisclown
God Member
*****
Offline


Pedicare Vestri Latin

Posts: 1022
Location: HollyWeird
Joined: 07/19/06
Gender: Male
Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #68 - 07/15/09 at 19:41:21
Post Tools
Yes, I see.
  

"Experience is a dim lamp, which only lights the one who bears it."
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 6
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo