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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski (Read 46929 times)
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #82 - 03/15/10 at 14:16:43
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Schroeder wrote on 03/15/10 at 05:26:06:
I own Ivan Sokolov's "The Ruy Lopez Revisited", which is probably the most recent and most recommendable book on the Schliemann. There is another thread on this book in this forum.

Ah, thanks. I found that thread, and the book looks interesting.

I like the fact that it also covers some other non-mainstream Ruy Lopez lines. I've been trying to play the Chigorin, but at my level (1700's), trying to play against slightly better players, I find that they know more of the theory than I do. Besides, I'm not that good at positional games - I'd rather play something sharper and more tactical for now. This book seems like it would have a few suggestions for fun ways to avoid the main lines.
  

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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #81 - 03/15/10 at 05:26:06
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I own Ivan Sokolov's "The Ruy Lopez Revisited", which is probably the most recent and most recommendable book on the Schliemann. There is another thread on this book in this forum.
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #80 - 03/15/10 at 04:35:48
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realpolitik wrote on 02/18/10 at 22:58:48:
Brunelli has fairly good coverage of the Schliemann but it is true he completely ignores 5...d5 in the Nc3 lines. Maybe he just doesnt have faith in it however after his suggestion of 5...Nf6 its not particularly difficult for black to end up in a line where he cannot hope for more than a draw. I think that if you plan to play the Schliemann against weaker players you are going to need to spend some time looking at 5...d5 and perhaps one of the sidelines there. Its too easy for even a much weaker player to garner a draw against Nf6. Having said that my only outing with this line so far in a game played with classical time controls I reached dead equality out of the opening but managed to win the game in the end partly helped by the amount of time my opponent used in the early stages of the game. I guess there is always some scope to outplay your opponent (unless the position is a trivial forced draw) but I don't think you could play the line advocated by Brunello on a regular basis without coming up against players who will make an early draw and there is little you can do about it as black.

I was thinking of getting this book, because I was curious about the Schliemann, which I really don't know anything about. So would this not be the best book for that? Someone else in this thread mentioned Gambiteer II as another book that covers the Schliemann. For someone who doesn't know the Schliemann at all, what would be the best first reference to buy?
  

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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #79 - 02/18/10 at 22:58:48
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Brunelli has fairly good coverage of the Schliemann but it is true he completely ignores 5...d5 in the Nc3 lines. Maybe he just doesnt have faith in it however after his suggestion of 5...Nf6 its not particularly difficult for black to end up in a line where he cannot hope for more than a draw. I think that if you plan to play the Schliemann against weaker players you are going to need to spend some time looking at 5...d5 and perhaps one of the sidelines there. Its too easy for even a much weaker player to garner a draw against Nf6. Having said that my only outing with this line so far in a game played with classical time controls I reached dead equality out of the opening but managed to win the game in the end partly helped by the amount of time my opponent used in the early stages of the game. I guess there is always some scope to outplay your opponent (unless the position is a trivial forced draw) but I don't think you could play the line advocated by Brunello on a regular basis without coming up against players who will make an early draw and there is little you can do about it as black.
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #78 - 02/18/10 at 01:59:30
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I am mainly interested in the Schliemann, and I do not (yet) have Brunelli's book.
Is it true that he completely ignores the Schliemann main line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 d5 (this is what I exclusively played so far)?
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #77 - 08/06/09 at 14:21:22
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I think there are two reasons for this.
  • With 7... 0-0 Black indicates that he might be playing the Marshall. This immediately makes some white players do something to avoid the main lines and Marshall possibility. Hence 8. a4 for example.
  • After 7... d6 white players don't feel the pressure to avoid main lines. In addition, Black can answer here 8. a4 Bg4 with good counterplay. This is what Marin ("A Spanish Repertoire for Black") recommends to do.
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #76 - 08/06/09 at 11:13:24
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Roger Williamson wrote on 02/10/09 at 22:33:07:
 I too dabbled with the line in blitz, and it proved almost impossible to lose with the opening in the 5 minute pool on ICC, such was the unfamiliarity with a line assumed to be rubbish.  I garnered alot of verbal abuse as a bonus.  Alas, whenever I threatened the Marshall in serious games I was denied a chance to try it, and left wishing I'd played 7... d6 instead of 7... 0-0.

 In blitz I never once reached the critical position examined by Bucker in the double bishop sacrifice line: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. 0-0 Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 0-0 8. c3 d5 9. ed e4 10. dc6 exf3 11. Qxf3 Bg4 12. Qg3 Re8 13. f3 Bd6 14. Qf2 Rxe1+ 15. Qxe1 Bxf3 16. gxf3 Bxh2+ 17. KxB Qd3 18. Qe3 Qf5 19. d4 Re8 20. Kg2 RxQ 21. BxR  which didn't look pleasant for Black either in the Bucker article or on the chessboard at home.

  The much maligned Lalic book on the Marshall, from what I recall, had a spectacularly awful chapter on the Steiner gambit.  A chapter in which satisfactory Black tries were assessed (if they were ever actually analyzed) as losing, and troubling lines as pleasant.  The book has long since departed my collection.  Probably I do it an injustice, but I can't say I miss it.

  I wouldn't be surprised, or particularly disappointed, if this backwater didn't appear in Mr. Brunello's book.  No doubt I'll end my moratorium on purchasing chess books in order to buy both this and Pavlovic's book.  The latter because, unlike most books on the Marshall, which tend to offer a survey, it supposedly offers a repertoire.  I doubt I'd utilize it, but it at least promises to be fresh enough to read.

  As a Quality Chess Book the Brunello volume is an obvious pre-order as well - especially if, like me, the Schliemann is the bane of your chess playing life.


Howcome white never plays 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 d6 8.a4
Why is a4 good against 7...0-0 but not 7...d6?
  
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ANDREW BRETT
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #75 - 07/29/09 at 07:57:05
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Harvey I wouldn't be surprised if you put this book out of business as these lines seem made for computer analysis !!
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #74 - 07/28/09 at 16:50:07
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This months update, for Gold Plus members, on opening trends in Computer Chess features the Gajewski. I bought the Brunello book after writing the update. I am happy to see that he does not mention the winning line I think I have found for White.  Grin
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #73 - 07/27/09 at 09:51:51
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Since last week I studied Brunello's book on the Marshall and examined the main line and the variations starting with 12.d3, Bd6 13.Re1, Bf5.
(Brunello doesnt cover 13...Qh4).

One important position that can arise after 13....Bf5 14.Qf3,Re8
(Brunello and Pavlovic also cover 14...Qh4).
is the following

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

Now play continues:
19....Nf6
And here Brunello uncorks his 'Novelty'
20.Qxc6       (Previously 20.Bd1 was played in Stellwagen-Gustaffson, 2008)

By coincidence I had come to the same conclusion at the beginning of this year when I send my comments on this game to Viktor Mikhalevski (who runs the e4e5 subscribers section) in reaction to his november update. I gave the following analysis:
20....Rd8 21.Qb6,Rd7 22.Bc2,Ng4 23.Rb1,Qe2 24.Bd2,Ne5 25.Qe3
Here my analysis stopped, concluding that white is better.
Viktor Mikhalevski was kind enough to reply to my mail, and confirm my analyses.

Brunello continues:
25....Qh5! 26.Bd1,Qf5 27.Be2,f6

However neither Brunello nor I can claim this novelty.
The honours go to the strong corr. player J.Novak.
The correspondence game Novak-Chopin 2008 reached this position (and the analysis provided above duplicates their moves from move 20 up till move 27). The game ended in a draw after 40 moves.

In this case I really cant blame Brunello for not having noticed this game. It entered my database around april this year, clearly too late to include in the manuscript.

Brunello's analysis of this game illustrates both the strength and the weaknesses of his treatment.
Strength
His treatment is much more comprehensive than Pavlovic. He spends no less than three pages of (reasonably fine printed) analysis on this game. And he makes very few errors i his analysis.
Weakness
The dense analyses trees are void of verbal explanations, which will make it hard for less experienced players to appreciate what is going on.
Also in several end positions of analytic lines I do not agree with his judgement on the endgame positions.
Finally he seems to prefer complicated lines a bit over more simple positional solutions.

Still I can fully recommend his book and his treatment on the Marshall. In general it is excellent, and very much better than I expected.
However for those taking up the Marshall for the first time, with a view to playing this OTB I would recommend Pavlovic, because of the instructional value of his verbal comments, and his better explanation of the anti-Marshall. In OTB it is hardly practical to try to remember tropical forests of variations running far beyond the 30th move

-------------------------------------------------------------------
One example where I dont agree with Brunello's endgame judgement:
* * * * * * * *
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* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

We are allready at move 34 in one of the sidelines of the above mentioned variation:
Brunello stops here and gives 34...Kf8 as equal.
I disagree:
After 35.h6! Black still has to work very hard to reach a draw.
If Black plays 35....gxh 36.b3+=
White can reach a rook endgame with a free b-pawn, where Black has no counter play on the king-side. On top of that his shattered  king-side is suddenly vulnerable to infiltration by white's pieces (using the b-pawn as a decoy)
If Black plays 35...g6 then 36 Rc8+,Ke7 37.Rh8 spells trouble.

The right move is 34...h6 with a typical draw, as now Black threatens to restore material equality picking up the h-pawn.
Then he is ready to commence counter-play with g5/Kg6 etc..

A sample variation:
34...h6! 35.Rh4,Rd2 36.Ra4, Rd5=

  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #72 - 07/27/09 at 07:36:02
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When discussing the new Marshall Books, it seems appropriate to mention that one of the great contributors to the Marshall theory
has died recently.
Janis Vitomskis, has passed away on 25 juni 2009 at the age of 72.
He generously shared his wisdom in many outstanding theoretical surveys on the CD-ROM The Total Marshall (co-authored with Tim Harding). But he allready was there when the basic theory of the Marshall was formed, co-authoring the section together with M.Tal for the first edition of ECO-C.
As a CC-GM he never became a world champion (though he was a finalist in the WC XV) but at least he won the European Championship once.

Some posts up, you can see how his analytic work certainly could compete with that of the new masters and Marshall authors. Both in depth as in originality.

Browsing through his games I also found an excellent defence in a difficult endgame which he drew against Ulf Anderson.
« Last Edit: 07/27/09 at 09:27:21 by micawber »  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #71 - 07/22/09 at 19:55:15
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well it isn't the first time and probably not the last time that strong OTB-players:

(A) do not own nor use every avaible source know to man
(B) Disregard correspondence chess

when writing openingbooks.

I don't really mind actually. Too many books just go: X gives moves ABC and claims U. I think it is more interesting to see what the author himself thinks.

My impression is that most GM's don't really rely on theoretical evaluations but more on their own assessments.

I do agree that sources should be listed and I think that a publisher should demand an author lists them.
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #70 - 07/22/09 at 15:05:24
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I have the book since yesterday. And I must admit the treatment of the Marshall looks reasonable good, although I certainly prefer Pavlovic on the anti-Marshall.

Brunello also does not list his sources, but it seems certain
(A) that he didnt consult Tim Harding's CD The Total Marshall
(B) his databse wasn't complete in respect to correspondence games.

An example:
* * * * * * * *
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* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

Brunello writes
"Amazingly, so far nobody seems to have noticed that Black can win by force with 20...Nxe3"  (page 198 Side variation 20.Bd1)

Well Mr. Brunello, GM Vitomskis certainly noticed it in 2002 in his Survey
on Tim Harding's CD. But the move was played as early as 1966: Callens-Nygyesi, corr.game.
In fact I found no less than 6 different games in my database where 20...Nxe3 was played!

So I would reply: "Amazingly Brunello failed to find any of the references above".
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #69 - 07/17/09 at 04:36:29
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There is a difference however:
Pavlovic devotes more space to the anti-Marshall lines (70 pages) than Brunello (30 pages). This is very sensible because, in practice you will face the anti-Marshall at least as much as the proper Marshall.
As I have mentioned earlier, his explanations are very good.
This is especially true about the anti-Marshall, where each system is preceded by an outline of the typical ideas for both sides.
I think that Pavlovic succeeded to produce a good coverage of the marshall and anti-marshall lines for his repertoire  in 130 pages.
His experience in playing he Marshall himself shows in his treatment.
I think I will buy Brunello's book as well, but I would be surprised if his coverage reaches the same quality level (after all his experience with the (anti)Marshall is limited).

I've played the Marshall both OTB and in correspondence for a long time, and posted several games in this section.

For some additional notes on Pavlovic book see:
www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1233238393/15#15
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #68 - 07/15/09 at 19:41:21
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Yes, I see.
  

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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #67 - 07/15/09 at 18:42:09
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ghenghisclown wrote on 07/15/09 at 18:09:10:
Antillian wrote on 07/15/09 at 17:59:02:
Pavlovic devouted less than  130 pages at max to the Marshall and Antimarshall including the introduction in his recent "Fighting the Ruy Lopez". Coverage in this new book does not appear to be that much different in quantity. (Coverages starts on page 153 and goes to the end, minus indexes presumably of a 288 page book)


I'm not sure what you're saying here.  Is it that it's impossible to cover the Marshall well in 130 pages?



No, I am not saying that.  I was just making an observation that both authors use a similar number of pages. Pavlovic's book might, however be perceived to be offering more substantive coverage when in fact a large part of the book is used to complete the repertiore.
  

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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #66 - 07/15/09 at 18:38:19
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Antillian wrote on 07/15/09 at 17:59:02:
Markovich wrote on 07/15/09 at 17:43:41:
Well I'll be very interested to get ahold of this book.  The material on the Schliemann alone is worth the price, and it'll be interesting to see what he can say about the Marshall in so little space.


Pavlovic devouted less than  130 pages at max to the Marshall and Antimarshall including the introduction in his recent "Fighting the Ruy Lopez". Coverage in this new book does not appear to be that much different in quantity. (Coverages starts on page 153 and goes to the end, minus indexes presumably of a 288 page book)


Fair enough.
  

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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #65 - 07/15/09 at 18:21:25
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I really want this one as well. Anyone know of a place in the states to get it at a normal price?
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #64 - 07/15/09 at 18:09:10
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Antillian wrote on 07/15/09 at 17:59:02:
Pavlovic devouted less than  130 pages at max to the Marshall and Antimarshall including the introduction in his recent "Fighting the Ruy Lopez". Coverage in this new book does not appear to be that much different in quantity. (Coverages starts on page 153 and goes to the end, minus indexes presumably of a 288 page book)


I'm not sure what you're saying here.  Is it that it's impossible to cover the Marshall well in 130 pages?
  

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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #63 - 07/15/09 at 17:59:02
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Markovich wrote on 07/15/09 at 17:43:41:
Well I'll be very interested to get ahold of this book.  The material on the Schliemann alone is worth the price, and it'll be interesting to see what he can say about the Marshall in so little space.


Pavlovic devouted less than  130 pages at max to the Marshall and Antimarshall including the introduction in his recent "Fighting the Ruy Lopez". Coverage in this new book does not appear to be that much different in quantity. (Coverages starts on page 153 and goes to the end, minus indexes presumably of a 288 page book)
  

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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #62 - 07/15/09 at 17:43:41
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Well I'll be very interested to get ahold of this book.  The material on the Schliemann alone is worth the price, and it'll be interesting to see what he can say about the Marshall in so little space.  I'm less interested in the Gajevski, but who knows, maybe I'll learn something.

Too bad the online sample doesn't include the forward, which would've been quite illuminating.

What is that typeface that Quality always uses?  Book Antiqua?  I don't like it very much.  But that's a quibble.
  

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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #61 - 07/15/09 at 15:16:35
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The book is published. I will get it propably only in august, so any opinions about the proposed variations?

Wink
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #60 - 06/22/09 at 19:42:57
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #59 - 06/06/09 at 19:18:23
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pavlovic "Fighting the Ruy Lopez" has probably been published.
Everymann Chess has posted a pdf with the contents and an excerpt on it's site. The excerpt shows that the analysis is not very deep digging, but the explanations and examples seem OK.
This book, containing a black repertoire based on the Marshall Attack is a direct competitor to "Attacking the Spanish".
Of course this last book still remains of interest because of the Schliemann and Gajewski. But as more than one poster has observed, treating all three in a single volume is a rather daunting task.
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #58 - 06/03/09 at 01:26:51
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Roger Williamson wrote on 02/10/09 at 22:33:07:
 I too dabbled with the line in blitz, and it proved almost impossible to lose with the opening in the 5 minute pool on ICC, such was the unfamiliarity with a line assumed to be rubbish.  I garnered alot of verbal abuse as a bonus.  Alas, whenever I threatened the Marshall in serious games I was denied a chance to try it, and left wishing I'd played 7... d6 instead of 7... 0-0.

 In blitz I never once reached the critical position examined by Bucker in the double bishop sacrifice line: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. 0-0 Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 0-0 8. c3 d5 9. ed e4 10. dc6 exf3 11. Qxf3 Bg4 12. Qg3 Re8 13. f3 Bd6 14. Qf2 Rxe1+ 15. Qxe1 Bxf3 16. gxf3 Bxh2+ 17. KxB Qd3 18. Qe3 Qf5 19. d4 Re8 20. Kg2 RxQ 21. BxR  which didn't look pleasant for Black either in the Bucker article or on the chessboard at home.

My lines after 21...Qg6+ 22.Kf1 a5 were long, hard to memorise. Now I think that he could simply play 22...h5 and push the h-pawn. This is =, easy to play and offers even better practical chances than 22...a5.
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #57 - 06/02/09 at 22:20:53
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@Schakkhamster

The answer to your question was just posted on Quality Chess's blog, which I quote here:

Quote:
But most importantly, his book Attacking the Spanish, is set to be out early in July. The editing is basically at an end and typesetting has begun. With the three weeks of turnover at the printer, we hope that the book will be out five weeks from now. We think it is really really good, but this will of course be for the critiques and readers to decide.


Some more good news is that Brunello looks set to become Italy's no.2 player after Caruana in the near future, based on his latest results.
  

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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #56 - 06/02/09 at 07:55:49
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shouldn't this be surfacing around now? Looking forward to see the "first" book on the Gajewski. The hype has stopped but there still interesting games being played in this line.
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #55 - 02/21/09 at 14:49:23
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Quote:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3  Nc6 3.Bb5  f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4  Nf6 6.Nxf6+ Qxf6  7.Qe2 Be7  8.Bxc6 bxc6! 9.Qxe5 now here's the shocker, rather than 9...c5, I actually think that 9...Qf7!? could be black's most challenging response. The great oracle, Khalifman, in his by now fabled OFWATA series, does not think highly of 9...Qf7 and suggests that White simply grab another pawn with 10.Qxc7(!) however things are not so clear after 10...0-0 11.d3 Bb4+!? [Unmentioned in OFWATA] the key idea being to meet the obvious 12.c3 with 12...Qg6! after which its game on.


Maybe 11.0-0 Qg6 12.Ne1 instead. I have not found any convincing continuation for black after this.  
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #54 - 02/18/09 at 22:57:07
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Sorry.
Qc4 Bd7 is ok for black.
  

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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #53 - 02/18/09 at 22:19:29
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Odd Gunnar Malin wrote on 02/18/09 at 00:03:51:
After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3  Nc6 3.Bb5  f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4  Nf6 6.Nxf6+ Qxf6  7.Qe2 Be7  8.Bxc6 bxc6 the Sweedish GM Emanuel Berg tried 9.d4 in Gibraltar this month. Something went wrong with his preparation and he had to fight for a draw. When looking at the game that went 9...Qg6 10.O-O d6 11.dxe5 the move 11.Qc4 looked like a good alternative.

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I analyzed this a bit but are new to this opening so there is probably something wrong in my analysis but for me it looks like Black have problem getting any play.
The best line I found (with computer help, 11.Qc4 haven't been played as far as I know) was 11...d5 12.Qc3 e4 13.Ne5 Qe6 14.Qxc6 Qxc6 15.Nxc6 and White is a healthy pawn up. I tried many other lines for Black but all seems to be even worse to me, then I have never played the Black side of the Schliemann and have no idea how he expect to counterattack.


Interesting stuff, I will take a look at this and get back to you.

To Ender, reQx4  Bd7: Kindly take the time to read through your post carefully and edit as needed before hitting the post button, in that way you will greatly reduce the likelihood of uploading gibberish.

Toppy Smiley
  

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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #52 - 02/18/09 at 11:02:15
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After Qx4  Bd7 looks good for black, since dxe5 d5 gives black good game
  

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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #51 - 02/18/09 at 00:03:51
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After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3  Nc6 3.Bb5  f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4  Nf6 6.Nxf6+ Qxf6  7.Qe2 Be7  8.Bxc6 bxc6 the Sweedish GM Emanuel Berg tried 9.d4 in Gibraltar this month. Something went wrong with his preparation and he had to fight for a draw. When looking at the game that went 9...Qg6 10.O-O d6 11.dxe5 the move 11.Qc4 looked like a good alternative.

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I analyzed this a bit but are new to this opening so there is probably something wrong in my analysis but for me it looks like Black have problem getting any play.
The best line I found (with computer help, 11.Qc4 haven't been played as far as I know) was 11...d5 12.Qc3 e4 13.Ne5 Qe6 14.Qxc6 Qxc6 15.Nxc6 and White is a healthy pawn up. I tried many other lines for Black but all seems to be even worse to me, then I have never played the Black side of the Schliemann and have no idea how he expect to counterattack.
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #50 - 02/17/09 at 22:34:59
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Ender wrote on 02/17/09 at 09:34:46:
TopNotch wrote on 02/17/09 at 02:01:14:
All of this brings me back to the mainline of this post: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3  Nc6 3.Bb5  f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4  Nf6 6.Nxf6+ Qxf6  7.Qe2 Be7  8.Bxc6 bxc6! 9.Qxe5 now here's the shocker, rather than 9...c5, I actually think that 9...Qf7!? could be black's most challenging response. The great oracle, Khalifman, in his by now fabled OFWATA series, does not think highly of 9...Qf7 and suggests that White simply grab another pawn with 10.Qxc7(!) however things are not so clear after 10...0-0 11.d3 Bb4+!? [Unmentioned in OFWATA] the key idea being to meet the obvious 12.c3 with 12...Qg6! after which its game on.





Hi!
The line You advocating is mentioned in Gambiteer 2 (quite ood book) but better is 10.d3 0-0 11.Qxc7 Qe6 12 Qe5 (Niemi-Aulaskari corr 1975) and 17.Kd2 is improvement over the actual game. Black is lost there. But I think bxc6!? line is more playable than dxc6.


So isn't 11...Bb4+ just a transposition to the line I mentioned?

Toppy Smiley
  

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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #49 - 02/17/09 at 16:33:08
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2nd norm for Sabino
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #48 - 02/17/09 at 09:34:46
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TopNotch wrote on 02/17/09 at 02:01:14:
All of this brings me back to the mainline of this post: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3  Nc6 3.Bb5  f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4  Nf6 6.Nxf6+ Qxf6  7.Qe2 Be7  8.Bxc6 bxc6! 9.Qxe5 now here's the shocker, rather than 9...c5, I actually think that 9...Qf7!? could be black's most challenging response. The great oracle, Khalifman, in his by now fabled OFWATA series, does not think highly of 9...Qf7 and suggests that White simply grab another pawn with 10.Qxc7(!) however things are not so clear after 10...0-0 11.d3 Bb4+!? [Unmentioned in OFWATA] the key idea being to meet the obvious 12.c3 with 12...Qg6! after which its game on.





Hi!
The line You advocating is mentioned in Gambiteer 2 (quite ood book) but better is 10.d3 0-0 11.Qxc7 Qe6 12 Qe5 (Niemi-Aulaskari corr 1975) and 17.Kd2 is improvement over the actual game. Black is lost there. But I think bxc6!? line is more playable than dxc6.
  

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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #47 - 02/17/09 at 06:10:59
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Will it add confidence to potential buyers with this piece of news:
http://tournaments.chessdom.com/cannes-chess-festival-2009

IM Sabino Brunello achieves GM norm (1st? 2nd? 3rd?)
  

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A Year With Nessie ...... aka GM John Shaw's The King's Gambit (http://thekinggambit.blogspot.com.au/)
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #46 - 02/17/09 at 03:25:36
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Yep, I bore witness to that Greet-Lyell game, and White's choice of 4. Nc3 ahead of his own recommended 4. d3, followed by discussions involving various people as to why Nc3 isn't perhaps as strong as generally thought. It left me wearied.

It's a bit of a pain not to be able to sit down and face the Schliemann with confidence, especially as there are at least two strong opponents I usually face in a season who play it regularly.

It'll be nice to see what might be coming my way soon, in Mr Brunello's book.
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #45 - 02/17/09 at 02:51:20
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Thanks Toppy for those insights, though it'll be a strange day for chess when 3...f5 is held to be adequate against 3.Bb5.  If it's anywhere near as challenging as you say, 1...e5 and 3...f5 should be in everyone's repertoire, just to threaten the occasional rip-off.
  

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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #44 - 02/17/09 at 02:01:14
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Ender wrote on 02/06/09 at 15:26:40:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3  Nc6 3.Bb5  f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4  Nf6 6.Nxf6+ Qxf6  7.Qe2 Be7  8.Bxc6 bxc6! (8..dc6?! looks like a play for a draw, and you must be strong player just to hold a draw... it's unpractical) 9.Qxe5 c5 10.O-O Bb7 11.Re1 ! as sugested by Khalifman is better for white.


I agree with Ender that 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3  Nc6 3.Bb5  f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4  Nf6 6.Nxf6+ Qxf6  7.Qe2 Be7  8.Bxc6 bxc6! may well be Black's best chance in the Schliemann, and although it is still early days yet I have been unable to find a line for White that I am totally satisfied with. But more about that later.

Funny how life imitates art, a recent unpleasant experience in the 4.d3 Schliemann variation forced me to take a long hard look at these 4.Nc3 lines. I noticed that another 4.d3 advocate, Andrew Greet, has also been forced to do the same recently .

I'm still examining the 4.Nc3 lines but my findings are disturbing, that is if your'e White. Many positions have not been assessed properly in the theory books, resulting in Black's resources being completely underestimated.

All of this brings me back to the mainline of this post: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3  Nc6 3.Bb5  f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4  Nf6 6.Nxf6+ Qxf6  7.Qe2 Be7  8.Bxc6 bxc6! 9.Qxe5 now here's the shocker, rather than 9...c5, I actually think that 9...Qf7!? could be black's most challenging response. The great oracle, Khalifman, in his by now fabled OFWATA series, does not think highly of 9...Qf7 and suggests that White simply grab another pawn with 10.Qxc7(!) however things are not so clear after 10...0-0 11.d3 Bb4+!? [Unmentioned in OFWATA] the key idea being to meet the obvious 12.c3 with 12...Qg6! after which its game on.

All this makes me speculate on just how deep does Radjabov's Schliemann prep go, and whether its time for me to abandon the Ruy in favor of the Four Knights Game.  Cry  

And they say chess is played out.  Roll Eyes

Toppy Smiley


  

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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #43 - 02/11/09 at 10:44:32
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micawber wrote on 02/11/09 at 08:05:34:
So I think I will go with the other upcoming Marshall book first, and wait for the reviews.


You are refering to http://www.everymanchess.com/chess/books/Fighting_the_Ruy_Lopez

Fighting the Ruy Lopez
by Milos Pavlovic

The Ruy Lopez is incredibly common at all levels of chess, and everyone who plays 1 e4 e5 as Black needs to have a reliable antidote to this powerful opening. In this book, Grandmaster and Lopez expert Milos Pavlovic provides the answer. Drawing upon his many years of experience facing the Lopez, Pavlovic devises a sound and yet ambitious repertoire for Black, the basis of which is provided by the legendary and ever-popular Marshall Attack. The Marshall is a perfect weapon, as it avoids passive positions and the so-called 'Spanish torture'of many other variations. Furthermore, Black's tactical and positional objectives are usually clear-cut, and often involve a plan of direct attack against the white king.

*A complete repertoire against the Ruy Lopez

*Covers the typical plans for both sides

*Emphasizes crucial tactical ideas

*Packed with original analysis.

Published March 2009 EU, April 2009 US | ISBN 9781857445909
Format Paperback, 192 pages


  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #42 - 02/11/09 at 08:05:34
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@RogerWilliamson

I agree with your post, most players will avoid the Marshall in a serious OTB game.
I also fully agree with your assesment of the recent Quality Chess books
(Avrukh 1.d4, Cox The Berlin). Also Marin's books (even though I dont agree with the analysis in several chapters of his e4e5 rep, esp. the KGD). His best is still Learn from the Legends imho (also a Q C publication of course!.
In fact the only Quality Chess book I found slightly dissapointing was Lund's book on Rook vs. 2 Minor pieces. I think the editors should have seen to a sounder balance between general coverage and the extensive analysis of positions of only two opening lines.
As for Lalic Everyman book on the Marshall, this was indeed horrible.

Still I am hesitant about Brunello's book, because in judging compensation experience counts as well. As I posted earlier Brunello's game record (0,5/5) is not terrible convincing. So I think I will go with the other upcoming Marshall book first, and wait for the reviews.


Anyway, Quality Chess will still make a dent in my chess book budget, as the second volume of Avrukh is also on my list.  Undecided

And of course Shaw's yet to be written book on the King's Gambit as well.  Smiley

By the way Mr. Aagaard,
is there any hope of B. Avrukh doing a Grunfeld Black Repertoire for QC?
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #41 - 02/10/09 at 22:33:07
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 I too dabbled with the line in blitz, and it proved almost impossible to lose with the opening in the 5 minute pool on ICC, such was the unfamiliarity with a line assumed to be rubbish.  I garnered alot of verbal abuse as a bonus.  Alas, whenever I threatened the Marshall in serious games I was denied a chance to try it, and left wishing I'd played 7... d6 instead of 7... 0-0.

 In blitz I never once reached the critical position examined by Bucker in the double bishop sacrifice line: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. 0-0 Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 0-0 8. c3 d5 9. ed e4 10. dc6 exf3 11. Qxf3 Bg4 12. Qg3 Re8 13. f3 Bd6 14. Qf2 Rxe1+ 15. Qxe1 Bxf3 16. gxf3 Bxh2+ 17. KxB Qd3 18. Qe3 Qf5 19. d4 Re8 20. Kg2 RxQ 21. BxR  which didn't look pleasant for Black either in the Bucker article or on the chessboard at home.

  The much maligned Lalic book on the Marshall, from what I recall, had a spectacularly awful chapter on the Steiner gambit.  A chapter in which satisfactory Black tries were assessed (if they were ever actually analyzed) as losing, and troubling lines as pleasant.  The book has long since departed my collection.  Probably I do it an injustice, but I can't say I miss it.

  I wouldn't be surprised, or particularly disappointed, if this backwater didn't appear in Mr. Brunello's book.  No doubt I'll end my moratorium on purchasing chess books in order to buy both this and Pavlovic's book.  The latter because, unlike most books on the Marshall, which tend to offer a survey, it supposedly offers a repertoire.  I doubt I'd utilize it, but it at least promises to be fresh enough to read.

  As a Quality Chess Book the Brunello volume is an obvious pre-order as well - especially if, like me, the Schliemann is the bane of your chess playing life.
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #40 - 02/10/09 at 20:51:06
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Roger Williamson wrote on 02/10/09 at 11:43:36:
 What would be the point?  Working ceaselessly for nearly an hour, assisted by fritz8, I have busted all 3 lines.  I invite you all to bicker with me for the next 2 months.

 On a slightly more serious note, will there be coverage of the Steiner line in the Marshall?  Just been going over the relevant Stefan Bucker articles on chesscafe...


You had me going there for a while; I thought we had another sloughter.  "Working ceaselessly for almost an hour" is quite rich!
  

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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #39 - 02/10/09 at 12:04:51
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Roger Williamson wrote on 02/10/09 at 11:43:36:
 What would be the point?  Working ceaselessly for nearly an hour, assisted by fritz8, I have busted all 3 lines.  I invite you all to bicker with me for the next 2 months.

 On a slightly more serious note, will there be coverage of the Steiner line in the Marshall?  Just been going over the relevant Stefan Bucker articles on chesscafe...


I also looked at these articles and was compelled to give them a twirl online. Sharp stuff that can throw your opponent off quite fast. On the downside: in some of the lines I had the feeling the best black could hope for was a perpetual.

One of those variations against which white can claim to be beter but not very easy to play against otb in my opinion. 
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #38 - 02/10/09 at 12:01:30
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Quote:
We have to announce the number of pages long before the books are out. Have none of you ever noticed that the Avrukh book is not 320 pages or Beat the KID not 176?

We will know how big the book is about 3-5 weeks before publication, which will mean in 2-3 weeks from now.


I think Rossia point are understandable taking on account the volume of pages of Chess Explained books and the late Everyman direction 
Undecided   
I have Grandmaster series of B.Avrukh and it is a great book, the best repertoire book I saw, but I was a bit sceptical about this series when I receive Beat the KID (3 systems 194 pages) but my deep love for the KID speak louder.  Roll Eyes  I think Quality Chess have a name to defend as the number one and I hope to see more books in the Grandmaster series like the Avrukh one and one book one system like the great Berlin Wall or Sveshnikov Reloaded.  Smiley
  

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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #37 - 02/10/09 at 11:43:36
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 What would be the point?  Working ceaselessly for nearly an hour, assisted by fritz8, I have busted all 3 lines.  I invite you all to bicker with me for the next 2 months.

  On a slightly more serious note, will there be coverage of the Steiner line in the Marshall?  Just been going over the relevant Stefan Bucker articles on chesscafe...
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #36 - 02/10/09 at 11:25:04
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It would be interesting to see what the author has to say about the Gajewski variation.

About the 2 other variations: I guess that the author probably will limit himself to either the most interesting, promising or popular lines because about either of them you could fill a few books.
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #35 - 02/07/09 at 10:04:50
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I am not sure I would say main line, but we have ideas there.

Obviously I am not the author, but I have seen one game from that position that did not go well for White at all. The assessment of an advantage might be simply wrong, but I will leave that for the author.

Jacob
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #34 - 02/06/09 at 16:25:41
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Jacob Aagaard wrote on 02/06/09 at 16:17:34:
Well, we know that one, of course. But we have some points to make about it Smiley.


So the main line in new book is 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3  Nc6 3.Bb5  f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4  Nf6 6.Nxf6+ Qxf6  7.Qe2 Be7  8.Bxc6 bxc6!     ?
  

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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #33 - 02/06/09 at 16:17:34
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Well, we know that one, of course. But we have some points to make about it Smiley.
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #32 - 02/06/09 at 15:26:40
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1.e4 e5 2.Nf3  Nc6 3.Bb5  f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4  Nf6 6.Nxf6+ Qxf6  7.Qe2 Be7  8.Bxc6 bxc6! (8..dc6?! looks like a play for a draw, and you must be strong player just to hold a draw... it's unpractical) 9.Qxe5 c5 10.O-O Bb7 11.Re1 ! as sugested by Khalifman is better for white.
  

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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #31 - 02/06/09 at 11:30:12
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We have to announce the number of pages long before the books are out. Have none of you ever noticed that the Avrukh book is not 320 pages or Beat the KID not 176?

We will know how big the book is about 3-5 weeks before publication, which will mean in 2-3 weeks from now.
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #30 - 02/05/09 at 11:05:22
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Hello Mr. Aagaard,

Do you know what the relative coverage will be for each variation given the space constraints? Will the most coverage be given for the most frequently played of the three variations, or the ones that are currently the most fashionable? Will the coverage be presented in the form of complete games, theoretical surveys or a combination of the two?

Looking forward to the publication of the book,

TN
  

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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #29 - 02/05/09 at 10:30:48
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As a publisher we would love to see how Black is worse BEFORE we finish the book, so we can answer, whether or not we can or not. WE would like to try  Cool.

Jacob Aagaard
jacob@qualitychess.co.uk
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #28 - 02/04/09 at 13:47:26
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Jacob Aagaard wrote on 02/04/09 at 10:02:43:
Sabino and I have been laughing our tits off reading the comments in here.

Sabino is busy writing, so I will answer with one simple question:

Can you wait slamming the book until it is out, please?


It seems a fair request... .
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #27 - 02/04/09 at 13:25:25
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I think black is worse in some Schlieman lines. Can i post them?
  

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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #26 - 02/04/09 at 13:05:22
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ANDREW BRETT wrote on 01/03/09 at 11:04:41:
Gajewski- I'll be interested to see what is made of this - some good stuff on Chess pub and still relatively unknown .

Yes, one of my Austrian teammates beat a 2400+ player incredibly easily with this just over a week ago. The guy had obviously never seen it before, so it will obviously be even more effective at lower levels.  Wink
Changing the subject slightly, someone showed me a sort of 'delayed Gajewski' the other day - will this become another weapon in Black's arsenal?
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #25 - 02/04/09 at 10:02:43
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Sabino and I have been laughing our tits off reading the comments in here.

Sabino is busy writing, so I will answer with one simple question:

Can you wait slamming the book until it is out, please?
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #24 - 01/03/09 at 11:04:41
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Just a few random thoughts.

The Marshall is well known  as a drawing weapon at top level - although I have noticed a trend for 17...qh5 and follow up with re7 rather than re6 - see leko and a couple of others rather than the pure Spassky re6 which seems to be under attack - Bacrot played a nice game although Kramnik was the man who played a collosal novelty original against Aronian.

In relation to 15 qe2- Hebden played a pretty interesting Nf4 sac at hastings a couple of days ago- but he seemed to lose the thread and lost.

12 d3 still looks like white has the sunny side of the draw even though black seems to be holding these opposite bishop endings a pawn down. in the qh4 lines take a look at Wells v Hebden Southend 2008 for an unusual rook position.

8 a4 b4 still seems very easy equaliser.

8 d4 nd4 - Ivanchuk seemed to have a slight edge against this but 8..d6 10 be3 is worth a look - see Gawain Jones losing horribly v Chinese at the Olympiad.

8 h3 bb7 9 d3 d5 still seems pretty easy equality

Schliemann a la Radjabov and Carlsen - seems drawish again opposite bishops a pawn down in the main 4 nc3 line. 4 d3 doesn't seem that threatening although topalov has tried it.

Gajewski- I'll be interested to see what is made of this - some good stuff on Chess pub and still relatively unknown . Question is if you go 7 ... 0-0 will you get your Gajewski or Marshall.

  
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Reply #23 - 01/02/09 at 18:54:12
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Greetings,

flaviddude wrote on 12/09/08 at 23:21:24:
What no-one has mentioned is that the choice of opening and variation is a matter of style. If you are a super solid technician then the main lines of the Spanish are a great choice. You will blunt white's initiative and then have chances to outplay him.

On the other hand if you prefer to play in a dynamic style then the Marshall still stacks up well. I have the Harding CD on the Marshall which is exellent especially in demonstrating what works and what does not work.  

This is certainly true in my case.

Generally, most players fall into either those who are prepared to wait until the opponent loses interest/heart, whereupon the former takes over the initiative OR those who want to take the game to the opponent.

As a teenager, back in the '70s, I fell firmly into the latter category.

I learned the Marshall through the Batsford book by Wade and Harding (1974 - all 256 pages of it!) expecting to use it against anyone playing the Ruy Lopez as white.

The only problem was that it doesn't start until Black's eighth move.

Everyone played liquorice all-sorts except the Ruy Lopez against me - and even when they did, they deviated earlier. When someone finally did allow me to nonchalantly play 7..., 0-0 ("...I'm just transposing, don't you know..."), they played 8. a4. Angry Cry

Roll Eyes

So I gave up 1...,e5 and switched to 1..., c5 - at least, that way I knew I could take the game to White instead of playing a waiting game.

When you're young, you don't have any sort of technique - except "KILL!!!"  Grin

When you've learned enough to realise that you can out-play opponents without behaving like the proverbial caveman, then other, "quieter" variations may appeal.

Although I still haven't played 1..., e5 in a OTB game, I've played "quieter" versions of the Sicilian.

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #22 - 12/12/08 at 10:42:58
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Mr. Aagaard, this book will have, as mentioned on amazon and other sites, ONLY 176 PAGES! Embarrassed

How can this possibly be true.

I hope that you won't start milking money with series like "Starting out..." or "Chess Explained".

This would be rather disappointing.

We all believe that the name QUALITY CHESS really stands for quality chess books only. Please keep this in mind.
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #21 - 12/11/08 at 13:29:39
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micawber wrote on 12/10/08 at 14:21:28:
Unfortunately no updates.
On the bright side, you can  pick up this CD at a bargain price by now.
It is still the best source available on many classic Marshall lines.

The best up to date source (with some holes) will not surprise you:
Chess Publishing, subsciber area 1.e4,e5~ Smiley
See for instance Mikhalevski's recent update.

A word of warning on Lalic's book on the Marshall, this is of little use and contains far too many errors, and far to less original analysis.



Thanks.
  

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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #20 - 12/10/08 at 14:27:03
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Everyman Chess also has a book coming out early next year on the Marshall:

http://www.amazon.com/Fighting-Ruy-Lopez-Milos-Pavlovic/dp/1857445902/ref=sr_1_1...
  

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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #19 - 12/10/08 at 14:21:28
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Unfortunately no updates.
On the bright side, you can  pick up this CD at a bargain price by now.
It is still the best source available on many classic Marshall lines.

The best up to date source (with some holes) will not surprise you:
Chess Publishing, subsciber area 1.e4,e5~ Smiley
See for instance Mikhalevski's recent update.

A word of warning on Lalic's book on the Marshall, this is of little use and contains far too many errors, and far to less original analysis.

  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #18 - 12/10/08 at 14:13:37
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flaviddude wrote on 12/09/08 at 23:21:24:
What no-one has mentioned is that the choice of opening and variation is a matter of style. If you are a super solid technician then the main lines of the Spanish are a great choice. You will blunt white's initiative and then have chances to outplay him.

On the other hand if you prefer to play in a dynamic style then the Marshall still stacks up well. I have the Harding CD on the Marshall which is exellent especially in demonstrating what works and what does not work.  


Does Harding offer a reasonably current edition of his CD?  What are the best sources for preparing the Marshall?
  

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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #17 - 12/09/08 at 23:21:24
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What no-one has mentioned is that the choice of opening and variation is a matter of style. If you are a super solid technician then the main lines of the Spanish are a great choice. You will blunt white's initiative and then have chances to outplay him.

On the other hand if you prefer to play in a dynamic style then the Marshall still stacks up well. I have the Harding CD on the Marshall which is exellent especially in demonstrating what works and what does not work.
  

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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #16 - 11/27/08 at 13:59:16
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Quote:
Quote:
  I think the best winning chances gives the Schliemann even though its very probably a bad opening.
At least against opponents that are not too good in openings (the big majoritiy).
The strongest chessplayer I ever beated in OTB chess was acutually in the Schliemann with black, despite I played the Schliemann only two times in my life (the other game was a horrible loss, but that shouldn't suprise Smiley After this loss I went home full of shame and forgot about the Schliemann Wink )


I dont understand, but it makes me feel between Huh -  Shocked -  Undecided and even  Angry


The second sentence was related to the first part of the first sentence, maybe some misunderstanding was possible.
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #15 - 11/22/08 at 14:42:26
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Bibs wrote on 11/22/08 at 13:31:29:
Suggest the Breyer. Recently games of Indian top board in Dresden Sashikiran, previously van der Sterren, earlier e.g. Karpov, Spassky. Some decent stuff in chesspub this month and in archives.

In good theoretical shape.
Strategically challenging.


I was about to say the same thing.  We seem to be witnessing a real resurgence here, too.  I'd add Kamsky to the list above...
  

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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #14 - 11/22/08 at 13:31:29
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What is with all the emoticons earlier? Is this primary school? Now, where did I leave my crayons....

Suggest the Breyer. Recently games of Indian top board in Dresden Sashikiran, previously van der Sterren, earlier e.g. Karpov, Spassky. Some decent stuff in chesspub this month and in archives.

In good theoretical shape.
Strategically challenging.

Sabino Brunello - a great porn star name. If the book doesnt sell well, there are other avenues open.

  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #13 - 11/21/08 at 14:03:58
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Quote:
I dont know. I think the best winning chances gives the Schliemann even though its very probably a bad opening.
At least against opponents that are not too good in openings (the big majoritiy).
The strongest chessplayer I ever beated in OTB chess was acutually in the Schliemann with black, despite I played the Schliemann only two times in my life (the other game was a horrible loss, but that shouldn't suprise Smiley After this loss I went home full of shame and forgot about the Schliemann Wink )

I dont understand, but it makes me feel between Huh -  Shocked -  Undecided and even  Angry
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #12 - 11/21/08 at 13:29:45
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Maybe I should write a counter book now  Smiley
I would call it: Crushing the Schliemann & Gajewski & avoiding the Marshall  Smiley Smiley

Quote:
Within the Ruy I think the best chances to win as Black are strategical variations


I dont know. I think the best winning chances gives the Schliemann even though its very probably a bad opening.
At least against opponents that are not too good in openings (the big majoritiy).
The strongest chessplayer I ever beated in OTB chess was acutually in the Schliemann with black, despite I played the Schliemann only two times in my life (the other game was a horrible loss, but that shouldn't suprise Smiley After this loss I went home full of shame and forgot about the Schliemann Wink )

  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #11 - 11/21/08 at 06:37:43
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Quote:
As they said on Monty Python, "I fart in your general direction." 

Sorry for that rudeness, but seriously, we have very different conceptions of what 1...e5 is all about.   I was going to write more, but I think we should just agree to disagree.


As they said on Monty Python:

"Our galaxy itself contains a hundred million stars,
it's a hundred thousand light-years side to side,
it bulges in the middle, sixty thousand light-years thick,
but out by us it's just three thousand light-years wide.
We're thiry thousand light-years from galactic central point
We go 'round every two hundred million years,
and our galaxy itself is one of millions of billions in this
Amazing and Expanding Universe!"

To be e5 or not to be - who cares  Grin
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #10 - 11/21/08 at 02:20:11
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Matemax wrote on 11/19/08 at 22:13:12:
Quote:
But seriously, what systems against the Spanish would you uphold as winning tries?


Maybe I go to far but playing 1...e5 is perhaps the first step away from trying to win. As Black you have the advantage of reaction - White has to show his cards first and you can unstable the position - therefore 1...c5 is probably the best way to try to win. Some White players try to use this the other way round by playing "innocent" moves like h3 or a3 somewhere - and in my opinion the whole Catalan System is nothing else but a try to make useful moves until Black has problems to hold the balance (but thats another story so lets go back to 1.e4 e5).

Within the Ruy I think the best chances to win as Black are strategical variations - especially the Chigorin System. At some point of the game Black has equalized (oh yes you get tortured 35 moves, but 25 are theory, so what) and may even benefit from the arising structure - which can be a queenside advantage or an open c-file in the Chigorin. I think you cant just hold as White in the Chigorin, you have to continue playing for weaknesses (eg. b5) and a kingside attack - otherwise Black takes over, often very fast. This means a lot of responsibility and psychological pressure for the White player - he has to act, Black only needs to react which is much simpler in chess (you always see threats and only moves and it doesnt matter what you want to do now, but what you have to do now - hmm, probably very human: most just follow others, very few have their own way - why should it be different in chess?).

Tactical answers (like Schliemann, Marshall) in the Ruy produce an immediate crisis of the game - if White finds the right way through this crisis the result is alway += and mostly no winning chances for Black. On the other hand Black's "gamble" may lead to a quick win if White goes wrong but he needs at least one serious mistake. In the strategical variations mistakes are more hidden and subtile which raises the winning chances for the stronger player.

What it means? I choose risky, counterattacking and gambit variations against (much) strong(er) opponents and the strategical ones against all the others with Black. With White I take my 1.e4-gun and try to kill.


As they said on Monty Python, "I fart in your general direction."  

Sorry for that rudeness, but seriously, we have very different conceptions of what 1...e5 is all about.   I was going to write more, but I think we should just agree to disagree.
  

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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #9 - 11/19/08 at 22:13:12
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Quote:
But seriously, what systems against the Spanish would you uphold as winning tries?


Maybe I go to far but playing 1...e5 is perhaps the first step away from trying to win. As Black you have the advantage of reaction - White has to show his cards first and you can unstable the position - therefore 1...c5 is probably the best way to try to win. Some White players try to use this the other way round by playing "innocent" moves like h3 or a3 somewhere - and in my opinion the whole Catalan System is nothing else but a try to make useful moves until Black has problems to hold the balance (but thats another story so lets go back to 1.e4 e5).

Within the Ruy I think the best chances to win as Black are strategical variations - especially the Chigorin System. At some point of the game Black has equalized (oh yes you get tortured 35 moves, but 25 are theory, so what) and may even benefit from the arising structure - which can be a queenside advantage or an open c-file in the Chigorin. I think you cant just hold as White in the Chigorin, you have to continue playing for weaknesses (eg. b5) and a kingside attack - otherwise Black takes over, often very fast. This means a lot of responsibility and psychological pressure for the White player - he has to act, Black only needs to react which is much simpler in chess (you always see threats and only moves and it doesnt matter what you want to do now, but what you have to do now - hmm, probably very human: most just follow others, very few have their own way - why should it be different in chess?).

Tactical answers (like Schliemann, Marshall) in the Ruy produce an immediate crisis of the game - if White finds the right way through this crisis the result is alway += and mostly no winning chances for Black. On the other hand Black's "gamble" may lead to a quick win if White goes wrong but he needs at least one serious mistake. In the strategical variations mistakes are more hidden and subtile which raises the winning chances for the stronger player.

What it means? I choose risky, counterattacking and gambit variations against (much) strong(er) opponents and the strategical ones against all the others with Black. With White I take my 1.e4-gun and try to kill.
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #8 - 11/19/08 at 19:49:34
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TonyRo wrote on 11/19/08 at 18:53:30:
How can you even cover the entire Marshall and Anti-Marshall's in that many pages? Where's Aagaard when you need him?  Grin

I welcome a new book on the Schliemann for sure, but if the coverage sucks or is unimpressive, then it's just a disappointment. I'd like to give Quality Chess the benefit of the doubt for now, as the vast majority of their books are quite good.


In Dresden  Grin
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #7 - 11/19/08 at 19:18:42
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Markovich wrote on 11/19/08 at 19:09:43:
But seriously, what systems against the Spanish would you uphold as winning tries?  


Duh, Berlin.  Grin
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #6 - 11/19/08 at 19:09:43
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Matemax wrote on 11/19/08 at 15:58:58:
Perhaps you will all crucify me but I dare to say that these variations are simply "Drawing Weapons". Their aim is to dig a tunnel to a position where Black, although slightly worse, has very good chances for a draw. This "tunnel approach" was in my opinion the reason Radjabov went for the Schliemann and lot of players go for the Marshall. Concerning Gajewski I somehow have the feeling that the right strategy for White is close to be found and then Black just is a pawn down which puts the whole variation back into an unpromising sideline.


"Tunneling for a draw" describes many of my games, even as White!  Which (considered from the viewpoint of my opponents) shows that unless you play chess among the gods, anything sound can be played for a win.  What, if you sat down against an IM and he played the Petroff, would you be very confident of the draw?

But seriously, what systems against the Spanish would you uphold as winning tries?  And further, granting for that White has to err before he can lose, why is White's error more likely in the Najdorf than in the Marshall?

P.S. Since Brunello plays better chess than I do, I'm willing to hear what he says about the Marshall.
  

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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
Reply #5 - 11/19/08 at 18:53:30
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How can you even cover the entire Marshall and Anti-Marshall's in that many pages? Where's Aagaard when you need him?  Grin

I welcome a new book on the Schliemann for sure, but if the coverage sucks or is unimpressive, then it's just a disappointment. I'd like to give Quality Chess the benefit of the doubt for now, as the vast majority of their books are quite good.
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #4 - 11/19/08 at 17:16:09
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If I am right, S.Brunello is an Italian IM, 19 years old.
His results in the Marshall (as black) are not terrible convincing.
From 2005 till 2008 I was able to trace 5 games where he scored
a dismall 0,5/5=10%

Concerning the Marshall, it's just how you look at it. As Markovich pointed out, the Marshall is quite nice, if you get the chance to play it.
Most white players nowadays avoid it.Black can instill enough poison in the proper Marshall positions to get some winning chances too, as I have demonstrated by publishing several correspondence games on this forum.
But for the 2700+ players the Marshall is indeed a drawing weapon,
although now and then even 2700+ white players have been known, to suffer some accidents.
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #3 - 11/19/08 at 16:04:46
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Matemax wrote on 11/19/08 at 15:58:58:
Perhaps you will all crucify me but I dare to say that these variations are simply "Drawing Weapons". Their aim is to dig a tunnel to a position where Black, although slightly worse, has very good chances for a draw. This "tunnel approach" was in my opinion the reason Radjabov went for the Schliemann and lot of players go for the Marshall. Concerning Gajewski I somehow have the feeling that the right strategy for White is close to be found and then Black just is a pawn down which puts the whole variation back into an unpromising sideline.



I'm drinkin' the same flavor Kool-aid.*






*I agree.
  

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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #2 - 11/19/08 at 15:58:58
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Perhaps you will all crucify me but I dare to say that these variations are simply "Drawing Weapons". Their aim is to dig a tunnel to a position where Black, although slightly worse, has very good chances for a draw. This "tunnel approach" was in my opinion the reason Radjabov went for the Schliemann and lot of players go for the Marshall. Concerning Gajewski I somehow have the feeling that the right strategy for White is close to be found and then Black just is a pawn down which puts the whole variation back into an unpromising sideline.
  
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Re: Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gaje
Reply #1 - 11/19/08 at 15:13:08
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176 whole pages!  I'm surprised he didn't have room for the Archangel as well.

But seriously, one must assume that Brunello's treatment of these systems will be rather cursory.
  

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Attacking Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski
11/19/08 at 14:13:03
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Hello,

New book is upcoming:

Attacking the Spanish: Marshall, Schliemann & Gajewski

Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Author: Sabino Brunello

Publisher: Quality Chess (May 2009)
Paperback: 176 pages

Language: English

http://www.amazon.com/Attacking-Spanish-Marshall-Schliemann-Gajewski/dp/19065521...
  
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