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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games) (Read 37673 times)
aiorla
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Re: Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
Reply #11 - 10/08/10 at 19:36:49
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I don't know if that will help or destroy the discussion about the "soundness" of Riga Variation, but here goes one of my recent correspondece games...

White - Aitor Ortiz de Latierro
Black - Guillem Mut
Place - Email

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Nxe4 6. d4 exd4 7. Re1 d5 8. Bg5 f6 9. Nxd4 Bc5 10. Nxc6 Bxf2+ 11. Kf1 Qd7 12. Nc3 bxc6 13. Nxe4 Bxe1 14. Nxf6+ gxf6 15. Qh5+ Kf8 16. Rxe1 fxg5 17. Kg1!N (I can't find a game with this move and it seems to give white a good endgame! ) Bb7 18. Qxg5 Qg7 19. Qf5+ Qf7 20. Qe5 Rg8 21. Rf1 Qxf1+ 22. Kxf1 Rg7 23. Qc3 Re8 24. Kg1 Re4 25. Bxc6 Bxc6 26. Qxc6 Rf7 27. h4 Re1+ 28. Kh2 Re2 29. Kh3 Rff2 30. Qc5+ Kf7 31. Qxd5+ Ke7 32. g3 Rxc2 33. Qe4+ Kd8 34. Qxh7 Rxb2 35. Qd3+ Ke7 36. a4 Rh2+ 37. Kg4 Rb6 38. Qc4 Kd7 39. Kg5... And we drawed later because I didn't know how to play the endgame...

I'm not sure if white can win in the endgame, but the line is quite forced, and the "final" position of the "combination" seems fine for white...
What do you think about it?

Aitor
  
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NeverGiveUp
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Re: Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
Reply #10 - 10/08/10 at 09:36:32
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Dear Markovich,

In the link you posted the following:

"You really should not dream of winning quickly with this variation unless your opponents are unbooked.  It's mainly an invitation to a particular ending.

12. Qd8+ Qxd8  13. Nxd8 Kxd8  14. Kxh2 Be6 and now, in my view, a very challenging idea is 15. c3, preserving the two bishops.  I believe that this idea is due to Tarrasch. Subsequent play is unforced, but considering that White keeps his bishops and that there is still a great deal of wood on the board, I would much rather have the minor pieces.  I admit it's a game of chess, but White's chances are better than in the initial position.

For example, if 15...f5  16. Bg5+ Kc8  17. Nd2 h6  18. Be3 Rd8 it appears to me that White doesn't even need to prevent ...Rd3 but can just go ahead and play 19. f3. "

I agree that 15.c3 is a critical line, and that it is a good idea for white to preserve the bishops pair.

I suggest that after 18.Be3 black should continue with 18. ... g6(!) 19.f3 ef3: 20.Nf3 b5 20.Bc2 Re8, followed by Kb7, with approximate equality (21.Ne5 Bd5).

So we agree to disagree (I agree) - but who is right then?  Shocked
  
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Göran
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Re: Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
Reply #9 - 10/06/10 at 15:17:32
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"The modern theorists Khalifman, Kortchnoi and Flear have reexamined the Riga Variation of the Ruy Lopez as did many earlier chess greats and all considered it falling short, while Flear in his Open Ruy Lopez treatise considered it sound if controversially complex." - http://kindredspiritks.wordpress.com/2008/03/12/kindreds-special-a-new-riga-vari...
  

What kind of proof is that?
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Re: Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
Reply #8 - 10/06/10 at 15:00:35
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What kind of proof is that?
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Markovich
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Re: Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
Reply #7 - 10/06/10 at 14:22:53
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We'll have to agree to disagree, it seems.  The idea that White can lose that endgame seems a little funny to me.  An excellent way for White to play it is whith c2-c3, saving his two bishops.  This was Tarrasch's idea.  It's been discussed at some length on this forum; see here: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1120352989

But I believe there are even earlier, more extensive discussions that I can't take the trouble to find.
  

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Re: Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
Reply #6 - 10/06/10 at 08:08:22
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Thanks for this Markovich.

In the YB85 the stand was taken that the endgame doesn't promise white much - and Matemax agrees with this. A lot of lines lead to no advantage at all, and in the long run white is in serious risk of losing. There are a few lines where black might get in trouble - but with exact play he's allright. That scenario compares favorably agains almost any major Ruy Lopez line, doesn't it? Especially given the fact that white is thrown into a type of position he's seriously unfamiliar with. I have now played something like 20 games with the endgame (several agai Roll Eyesnst 2200+ players), lost only one, had several draws, and won something like 7. The one loss was a theoretical game where afterwards I found an improvement for black leading to equality.
So I challenge you - to show me with some concrete analyses how white would get the advantage in the endgame? Roll Eyes
My prediction is that this is a very hard task if not near impossible  Sad and that Berger's line (8.Bg5) is the only real test for black. Matemax is right that black is on this ice here - but it looks like the ice is holding!
  
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Re: Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
Reply #5 - 10/06/10 at 00:39:57
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I myself think that the Riga Variation is no good.  The best line for White is very easy to remember, and it produces an advantageous endgame for White.  Computers seem to have trouble with these N+B vs. R positions, but if you look at these particular ones carefully, Black has a hard row to hoe.
  

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Re: Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
Reply #4 - 10/04/10 at 16:34:08
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Don't expect an anser from Drkodos. His last post was on 02/24/09.
  

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Re: Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
Reply #3 - 10/04/10 at 13:20:00
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Dear Drkodos,

Good to see a supporter of this line which I believe is much better than its reputation. Cheesy
The rook ending "refutation" (the Bg5 line) although an absolutely brilliant piece of analysis from Matemax isn't a poper refutation for me since I'm not convinced the rook ending is winning for white - as you are. Some general considerations: the king is well placed on g4 ready to quickly support the advanced g-pawn once it becomes a passed pawn - black only needs to activate his rook and can do this by 26. ...Rf8+(!) (rather than Rb8) 27.Ke2 Re8+ (! - cutting the king off along the e-file) 28.Kd3 Re7 and now if 29.Ra6: then either 29. ... Rf7 threatening Rf3+-h3, or 29. ... h5, in both cases with good and substantial counterplay for black that should probably be sufficient to draw. My conclusion - this long line is not the refutation of the riga and it's therefore alive and kicking! Wink
I find it surprising that any white does actually plays these lines - it goes so deep that no one witt really know the theory?
  
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drkodos
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Re: Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
Reply #2 - 12/08/08 at 15:19:31
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I am surprised (and disappointed   Wink ) that no one of the Riga Brigagde (those that consider it unsound!) have come in here and cut this to ribbons, or on the other hand, admitted that Bg5 may not be the best path for White to gain advantage.

I believe it is not.  I think Bg5 allows Black to hold with accurate play.



I maintain that the Riga is a viable opening choice for Black, the best path to White advantage is detailed by Khalifman in COFWATA, and even in this line, Black can get playable game against all but the highest Masters/IM, GM.


~  Happy Holidaze from drkodoze
« Last Edit: 12/08/08 at 16:58:54 by drkodos »  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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Re: Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
Reply #1 - 12/03/08 at 15:33:16
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drkodos wrote on 12/03/08 at 02:12:56:
GAME 2

White Rating 2387
Black Rating (Provisional) 1800

   1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.O-O Nxe4 6.d4 exd4 7.Re1 d5 8.Bg5 f6 9.Nxd4 Bc5 10.Nxc6 Bxf2+ 11.Kf1 Qd7 12.Nc3 bxc6 13.Nxe4 Bxe1 14.Nxf6+ gxf6 15.Qh5+ Kf8  16 Re1 !  Strongest for white, so far, but perhaps still not the path to a forced win!   16... fxg5 17. Qh6+ Kf7 18. Bxc6 Qd6 19. Qh5+ Qg6 20. Bxd5+ Be6 21. Qf3+ Qf6 22. Qxf6+ Kxf6 23. Rxe6+ Kf5 24. g4+ Kxg4 25. Bxa8 Rxa8 26. Rh6  (This position was given as +/= and sometimes +/- in previous analysis)  Rb8 27. b3 Rf8+ 28. Ke2 Rf7 29. Rxa6 h5 30. a4 Re7+ 31. Kf1 Rf7+ 32. Kg2 Kf4 33. a5 g4 34. Re6 Rd7 35. Rf6+ Ke5 36. Rf8 Rd2+ 37. Kg3 Rxc2 38. a6 Ra2 39. Rh8 Rxa6 40. Rxh5+ Ke4 41. Rc5 Rh6 42. Rxc7 Rh3+ 43. Kxg4 Rxh2 44. b4 Rb2 45. Rb7 Kd5 46. Kf4 Kc4  1/2-1/2


Game 2 is interesting food for thought. I'm a little bit in doubt about the quality of play in the rook ending.

34. Rc6! might well have been a move that secures the win for white. Comparing to the game, white is driving the black king out of its most active position by means of Rc4+. In addition, white in some lines picks up the black c-pawn or brings his rook behind his a-pawn.

Black however might improve earlier in the game with 30. ... Kh3! using his king as actively as possible.

Regards!
  
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drkodos
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Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
12/03/08 at 02:12:56
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2 Recent Riga Variation games.  First game is not critical, but may be interesting because Black's position is ugly looking and looks impossible to hold, but a nice resource appears!

The second game is more critical as it follows some analysis published in NIC YB 86.  The position looks grim indeed for black after 26 Rh6, but despite being in a pickle barrel, black holds in this game because of superior king position.

GAME 1

White Rating 2155
Black Rating (Provisional) 1800

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.O-O Nxe4 6.d4 exd4 7.Re1 d5 8.Bg5 f6 9.Nxd4 Bc5 10.Nxc6 Bxf2+ 11.Kf1 Qd7 12.Nc3 bxc6 13.Nxe4 Bxe1 14.Nxf6+ gxf6 15.Qh5+ Kf8 16.Bh6+?! (Stronger is 16.Re1 as seen in GAME 2) Ke7 17.Rxe1+ Kd8 18.Qf3 Qf5 19.Qxf5 Bxf5 20.Bxc6 Rb8 21.Bg7 Rg8 22.Bxf6+ Kc8 23.Bxd5 Rf8 24.Bg7 Rd8 25.c4 Kd7 26.Kf2 c6 27.Bf3 Rg8 28.Be5 Rbf8 29.h3 Rg6 30.b3 Re6 31.c5 Kc8 32.Bd6 Rff6 33.Re5 Kb7 34.Ke3 Rxe5+ 35.Bxe5 Re6 36.Kf4 Bc2 37.g4 Re8 38.g5 Rf8+ 39.Bf6 a5 40.h4 Re8 41.h5 Re1 42.Kg3 a4 43.Kf2 Rb1 44.bxa4 Rb4 45.a5 Ra4 46.Bd8 Rxa2 47.Kg3 Ra3 48.Kf4 Rxf3+ 49.Kxf3 Bd1+ 50.Ke4 Bxh5 51.Kd4  1/2- 1/2


This next game is more crtical test of the line, and black is fine!

GAME 2

White Rating 2387
Black Rating (Provisional) 1800

   1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.O-O Nxe4 6.d4 exd4 7.Re1 d5 8.Bg5 f6 9.Nxd4 Bc5 10.Nxc6 Bxf2+ 11.Kf1 Qd7 12.Nc3 bxc6 13.Nxe4 Bxe1 14.Nxf6+ gxf6 15.Qh5+ Kf8  16 Re1 !  Strongest for white, so far, but perhaps still not the path to a forced win!   16... fxg5 17. Qh6+ Kf7 18. Bxc6 Qd6 19. Qh5+ Qg6 20. Bxd5+ Be6 21. Qf3+ Qf6 22. Qxf6+ Kxf6 23. Rxe6+ Kf5 24. g4+ Kxg4 25. Bxa8 Rxa8 26. Rh6  (This position was given as +/= and sometimes +/- in previous analysis)  Rb8 27. b3 Rf8+ 28. Ke2 Rf7 29. Rxa6 h5 30. a4 Re7+ 31. Kf1 Rf7+ 32. Kg2 Kf4 33. a5 g4 34. Re6 Rd7 35. Rf6+ Ke5 36. Rf8 Rd2+ 37. Kg3 Rxc2 38. a6 Ra2 39. Rh8 Rxa6 40. Rxh5+ Ke4 41. Rc5 Rh6 42. Rxc7 Rh3+ 43. Kxg4 Rxh2 44. b4 Rb2 45. Rb7 Kd5 46. Kf4 Kc4  1/2-1/2



Long live the Riga.


I am still checking both games for possible improvements.  Both games played on ICCF 10 moves/50 days.  


Please point out mistakes, improves and even critique format of post !   Smiley

~ drkodos
  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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