Latest Updates:
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games) (Read 33085 times)
NeverGiveUp
Full Member
***
Offline


Never despair in a lost
position

Posts: 221
Joined: 11/18/09
Re: Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
Reply #26 - 04/15/12 at 06:54:50
Post Tools
Thanks for your help Stefan.

Your analysis is correct but is white winning here? My computer gives the position as equal. I agree this verdict may be slightly optimistic but black has got the bishop's pair so may be able to defend.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stefan Buecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1386
Location: Germany
Joined: 02/11/09
Gender: Male
Re: Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
Reply #25 - 04/14/12 at 08:22:20
Post Tools
When I looked at this Riga line, my analysis of 9...Qd6 ran 10.Nd2 fxg5 (10...Kf7 11.Bf4 Qxf4 12.Qh5+) 11.Nxc6 Kf7 (11...bxc6 fails to 12.Nxe4) 12.Bb3 Kg6 13.Nd4 +/-. Did you find a rescue for Black?
« Last Edit: 04/14/12 at 14:34:04 by Stefan Buecker »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
NeverGiveUp
Full Member
***
Offline


Never despair in a lost
position

Posts: 221
Joined: 11/18/09
Re: Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
Reply #24 - 04/14/12 at 06:28:37
Post Tools
So the current verdict of the Riga is that it's busted, due to the long and forcing lines arising from 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Ne4: 6.d4 ed4: 7.Re1 d5 8.Bg5! f6 9.Nd4: Bc5 10.Nc6: Bf2:+ 11.Kf1 Qd7 12.Nc3 bc6:13.Ne4: Be1: 14.Nf6:+ gf6: 15.Qh5+ Kf8 16.Re1!! (Matemax)

8. ... Qd6 is also not good enough after 9.c4!

After a long search maybe I've now found a remedy though - the new line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Ne4: 6.d4 ed4: 7.Re1 d5 8.Bg5! f6 9.Nd4: and now 9. ... Qd6!?
Blacks idea is to play the ugly ... Kf7 which is apparently much better than it looks. The king is quite safe on f7 and the Ne4 is unpinned. After both 10. Bh4 and 10.c4 black will go 10. ... Kf7!?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
NeverGiveUp
Full Member
***
Offline


Never despair in a lost
position

Posts: 221
Joined: 11/18/09
Re: Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
Reply #23 - 04/09/12 at 08:31:11
Post Tools
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
George Jempty
Full Member
***
Offline


Participant 1996 US Corres.
Champ. Qualifying Rd.

Posts: 201
Location: Carrollton, TX
Joined: 03/29/09
Gender: Male
Re: Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
Reply #22 - 04/03/12 at 01:34:47
Post Tools
NeverGiveUp wrote on 03/10/12 at 08:31:50:
spagh3tti wrote on 03/02/12 at 11:17:05:
drkodos wrote on 12/03/08 at 02:12:56:
GAME 1

White Rating 2155
Black Rating (Provisional) 1800

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.O-O Nxe4 6.d4 exd4 7.Re1 d5 8.Bg5 f6 9.Nxd4 Bc5 10.Nxc6 Bxf2+ 11.Kf1 Qd7 12.Nc3 bxc6 13.Nxe4 Bxe1 14.Nxf6+ gxf6 15.Qh5+ Kf8 16.Bh6+?! (Stronger is 16.Re1 as seen in GAME 2) Ke7 17.Rxe1+ Kd8 18.Qf3



McDonald following Palkovi's analysis gives 18.Bxc6 Qxc6 19.Bg7 Rg8 20.Qf7 Bf5 21.Qxg8+ Kd7 22.Qf7+ Kc8 23.Bxf6 as better for White. What do you guys think?


This line is not critical, but the brilliant 16.Re1!! of Matemax puts the whole Riga variation back to the drawing board. I've not been able to find anything for black, so I'm afraid is busted. Worse than that, the refutation can be found on the Internet right here in this forum. 


Where is Matemax's analysis which I presume carries forward the 16. Re1 and 17. Kg1 line?  This is what I come up with my engine, after the moves from correspondence game supplied above:

16. Rxe1 fxg5 17. Kg1 Bb7 18. Qxg5 Qg7 19.
Qf5+ Qf7 20. Qe5 Rg8 21. Rf1 Qxf1+ 22. Kxf1 Rg7 23. Qc3 Re8 and my engine, outdated as it is, prefers 24. h3 though 24. Kg1 and 24. h4 aren't far behind (maybe I'll let her run all night).

Thanks in advance.  My interest in the Riga arises from the possible transposition from the Centre Attack which I am considering adopting: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. O-O Nxe4 (rather than the "normal" 6...Be7)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
NeverGiveUp
Full Member
***
Offline


Never despair in a lost
position

Posts: 221
Joined: 11/18/09
Re: Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
Reply #21 - 03/10/12 at 08:31:50
Post Tools
spagh3tti wrote on 03/02/12 at 11:17:05:
drkodos wrote on 12/03/08 at 02:12:56:
GAME 1

White Rating 2155
Black Rating (Provisional) 1800

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.O-O Nxe4 6.d4 exd4 7.Re1 d5 8.Bg5 f6 9.Nxd4 Bc5 10.Nxc6 Bxf2+ 11.Kf1 Qd7 12.Nc3 bxc6 13.Nxe4 Bxe1 14.Nxf6+ gxf6 15.Qh5+ Kf8 16.Bh6+?! (Stronger is 16.Re1 as seen in GAME 2) Ke7 17.Rxe1+ Kd8 18.Qf3



McDonald following Palkovi's analysis gives 18.Bxc6 Qxc6 19.Bg7 Rg8 20.Qf7 Bf5 21.Qxg8+ Kd7 22.Qf7+ Kc8 23.Bxf6 as better for White. What do you guys think?


This line is not critical, but the brilliant 16.Re1!! of Matemax puts the whole Riga variation back to the drawing board. I've not been able to find anything for black, so I'm afraid is busted. Worse than that, the refutation can be found on the Internet right here in this forum. 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
spagh3tti
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 50
Joined: 09/27/10
Gender: Male
Re: Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
Reply #20 - 03/02/12 at 11:17:05
Post Tools
drkodos wrote on 12/03/08 at 02:12:56:
GAME 1

White Rating 2155
Black Rating (Provisional) 1800

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.O-O Nxe4 6.d4 exd4 7.Re1 d5 8.Bg5 f6 9.Nxd4 Bc5 10.Nxc6 Bxf2+ 11.Kf1 Qd7 12.Nc3 bxc6 13.Nxe4 Bxe1 14.Nxf6+ gxf6 15.Qh5+ Kf8 16.Bh6+?! (Stronger is 16.Re1 as seen in GAME 2) Ke7 17.Rxe1+ Kd8 18.Qf3



McDonald following Palkovi's analysis gives 18.Bxc6 Qxc6 19.Bg7 Rg8 20.Qf7 Bf5 21.Qxg8+ Kd7 22.Qf7+ Kc8 23.Bxf6 as better for White. What do you guys think?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
tp2205
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 198
Joined: 09/11/11
Re: Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
Reply #19 - 12/05/11 at 02:57:33
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 12/05/11 at 02:40:32:
This, like 8.Qf3 in the Two Knights, comes up frequently in this forum. I think that this reveals more about the chess judgment of some people than anything about chess. But those who would play this should play it, and it will no doubt be an education.


Was that a reply to my post? If so, please explain. Are you suggesting that if you intend to play the Riga variation you should ignore 8.Bg5 and hope it will never show up? So may I ask you to employ your chess judgement and tell me how I should deal with 8.Bg5? Refuse to play against it?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
Reply #18 - 12/05/11 at 02:40:32
Post Tools
This, like 8.Qf3 in the Two Knights, comes up frequently in this forum. I think that this reveals more about the chess judgment of some people than anything about chess. But those who would play this should play it, and it will no doubt be an education.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
tp2205
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 198
Joined: 09/11/11
Re: Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
Reply #17 - 12/05/11 at 01:12:48
Post Tools
NeverGiveUp wrote on 10/11/10 at 08:25:51:
....
When time allows I'l try to do a detailed analysis of this ending.

If you had the time and energy for such an analysis I would be very interested to see it.
Quote:
In the meantime I have been looking at alternatives for black after 8.Bg5 but they're basically all good for white. 8. ...f6 9.Nd4 Bc5 10.Nc6 Bf2+ 11.Kf1 Qd6 looks interesting but is no good after 12.Nb4+! Kf8 13.Nd5 with Bf4 to follow and black can resign.

I am not so sure here. After 12. Nb4 b5 13. Nd5 Be1 14 Bf4 followed by Nc7 and Bb3 I think White is better but after 12. ... Kf8 13. Re4 (instead of 13.Nd5) de 14. Qd6 cd6 15. Kf2 fg5 16 Nd2 looks preferable to me. 12. ... Kf8 13 Nd5 Be1 14. Bf4 Qc5 looks rather unclear. 15. Qe1 Qd5 and after 16. Nc3 Qc4 followed by Bf5 seems to let Black survive

If there is salvation I think it can only be found in the line 8. ... Be7 9. Be7 Ke7 (!). So far I have only looked at 10.Bc6 bc6. Now 11. Nd4 Kf8 (!) returns the pawn for almost equality after 12. Nc6 Qd6. I do not see any advantage for white after 13.Nd4 g6 14.Nd2 Nf6 [Nd2. 15 Qd2 Kg7 16 Qc3 f6 17.Qc6 looks good for white] followed by Kg7. I don't know if White has more than compensation for the pawn after 12. Nd2 Nd2 13. Qd2

That would leave 11. Qd4.  http://kindredspiritks.wordpress.com/2008/03/12/kindreds-special-a-new-riga-vari... offers the following
Quote:
Now, on 8. …Be7  9.Bxe7  Kxe7  10.Bxc6  bxc6  11.Qxd4! Centralization of the Queen ala Chess Praxis! This move gives white the edge because Kf8? 12.Rxe4 wins a piece because of the pin on the d-pawn.  11. …Be6  12.Qxg7  Qd6  13.Nbd2  Rag8  14.Qd4  f5  15.b4! h5.  I leave the game at this point which continued with 16.Nb3 but I think a stronger move might be simply 16.Nxe4 to be rid of that outpost Knight. Black seems to me to have problems after either pawn takes the Knight with Ne5!

Instead of 16.Ne4 (after fe4 17. Ne5 Bh3 seems to be ok for Black) , I prefer 16.Ne5. Deviating earlier is not so easy. Simple attempts I tried failed.
11. Qd4 Be6 [ 11. ...f6? 12. Nc3] 12 Qxg7 Qd6 [12. ...c5 13.Nd2 or even 13.Nc3 look good] 13. Nbd2 Rag8 [13. ... Rhg8 14. Qh7 Nd2 may be best] 14. Qd4 f5 [c5 15. Ne4 cd4 16 Nd6 Kd6 just loses a pawn] 15. b4 h5 (what else?) and now 16. Ne5.

To summarize. Is there anything better for Black than 8.Bg5 Be7 9. Be7 Ke7 10. Bc6 bc and now 11. Nd4 Kf8 12. Nc6 (12. Nd2!?) Qd6 13. Nd4 g6 14.Nd2 Nf6 (with equality) or 11. Qd4 Be6 12. Qg7 Qd6 13 Nd2 Rhg8 (better for White I believe)?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
NeverGiveUp
Full Member
***
Offline


Never despair in a lost
position

Posts: 221
Joined: 11/18/09
Re: Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
Reply #16 - 10/12/10 at 15:16:14
Post Tools
Thanks Markovich.

Even if you are right and 15.c3 would give white an advantage with best play of both sides then I'd still state that the riga is very playable in a practical game - maybe not in a CC, against anything less than a GM.

The advantages are as follows:
-it's not a lot of opening theory. All you need to do is get hold of the NIC YB85 article and you're allright Smiley
-Since it's supposedly refuted, no one plays it, so white will not know what to do against it. Sad
-It throws white off balance by going into types of positions he will be seriously unfamiliar with. Roll Eyes
-Several lines go into complex and interesting endgames, so if you like endgames and/or are good at these then this line may be just the thing for you. Kiss
-Any white who wants to prepare against the line is bound to have a hard time -even if he's an FM or IM- since the lines that might be really difficult to meet for black are hardly mentioned anywhere. Most major RL sources hardly mention the line at all. Lips Sealed
-Although Berger's line might be the refutation then (with the additions given here) no one plays it. I haven't had 8.Bg5 against me ever. And even if they would then I seriously doubt if they will ever come up with the amazing moves 16.Re1!! and 17.Kg1!. My guess is they will probably play something else along the way (like 8.Bg5 f6 9.Nd4 Bc5 10.Be3) when black should be fine.

It still would be brillant if one of you guys would come up with an improvement particularly in the Berger line - since it's not ideal to play an opening line that is refuted. Also you guys probably sympatise with the variation (why else come to this pub?) so it would be good if it can be saved... Any help is much appreciated ... Embarrassed   
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
Reply #15 - 10/11/10 at 17:53:29
Post Tools
Once again, we have to agree to disagree, since I still prefer White after 17...g6.  For one thing, White need not hurry with f3.  There is not much use doing analysis, since the position is so open to interpretation and to different plans.  I myself would not want to play Black's side of it.

This may be moot if 8.Bg5 is all that strong, but from a practical perspective, I think it's nice that White has the option of playing simple chess while still preserving good winning chances.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
NeverGiveUp
Full Member
***
Offline


Never despair in a lost
position

Posts: 221
Joined: 11/18/09
Re: Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
Reply #14 - 10/11/10 at 08:25:51
Post Tools
Thanks guys for these excellent analyses. They do advance the opening theory of this line. Unfortunately not in the direction I'd like to see ...

Markovich I completey agree with your analysis - black is in (serious) trouble here. I suggest black should abstain for playing h6 altogheter since it's very weakening, and go 17. ... g6 straight away and after 18.f3 ef3: 19.Nf3: go 19. ... Bd5!? with the idea 20.Kg3 b5 21.Bc2 Re8 when it looks as if black is OK. Huh

I still maintain the endgame is quite doable for black.

But then there is Aiorla's line - the brillant 17.Kg1! in Berger's line, where white being a whole rook down just plays a quiet attacking move that brings black to the brink of disaster.
Black has no choice but to sac his queen for Rf1 (as per the CC game) after which material is about even but white wins the pawn on c6 and then another one, resulting in an endgame of Q vs two rooks where white is a pawn up and black's king is unsafe so black is really struggling.
Maybe black can just about hold on by the skin of his teeth by trying to get his rooks to the 7th and attacking g2 - but it looks like white is still better since he can create a passed pawn on the queenside and protect g2 with his queen.
When time allows I'l try to do a detailed analysis of this ending. In the meantime I have been looking at alternatives for black after 8.Bg5 but they're basically all good for white. 8. ...f6 9.Nd4 Bc5 10.Nc6 Bf2+ 11.Kf1 Qd6 looks interesting but is no good after 12.Nb4+! Kf8 13.Nd5 with Bf4 to follow and black can resign. 8. ... Qd6 has been whiped off the board with the Berliner correspondence game. And 8. ...f6 9.Nd4 Bc5 10.Nc6 Bf2+ 11.Kf1 Qd7 12.Nc3 0-0!? is interesting and very doable after 13.Nd5: Kh8 14.Re4 fg5: where black has excellent compensation for the piece due to the miserable position of white's king, but falls apart after the simple 13.Re4:! de4: 14.Qd7: Bd7: 15.Bf4 and white is clearly better.
So to me it looks like the riga is now very close to really being busted by Berger's 8.Bg5  Cry  - unless anyone can come up with a rescue operation??  Undecided    

One other thing before I forget - all these analyses end up in complex endings - so it really pays off in the riga (and in chess as a whole, really) to be an endgame expert! People spend too much time at openings (as we do in the pub) and do not take enough time to study the endgame what is not only very useful but also very enjoyable. People who say they never get to the endgame should have another look at their won games. Endgames are not boring at all. I'm just going through Nunn's understanding chess endgames, what is a recent and really excellent book.

Greetings to you all!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
Reply #13 - 10/09/10 at 14:25:53
Post Tools
NeverGiveUp wrote on 10/08/10 at 09:36:32:
12. Qd8+ Qxd8  13. Nxd8 Kxd8  14. Kxh2 Be6 15.c3 f5  16. Bg5+ Kc8  17. Nd2 h6  18. Be3 g6 19.f3 ef3: 20.Nf3 b5


Now 21.Bd1, as advised by silicon, appears quite strong.  Black can hardly play 21...Kb7 22.Ne5, and 21...Re8 22.Nh4 g5 23.Bh5 looks quite good for White as well.   Black has 21...Re8 22.Nh4 Kb7 23.Bxh6 Bd5 but after 24.Bd2 it still looks very good for White.  I don't want to get into a theorem-proof argument about the complicated ending that arises from 15.c3.  But according to my understanding of chess, which is imperfect, it's much better for White.

I have nothing against 8.Bg5, but I maintain my view that this ending is also quite good, and it's simple chess.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stefan Buecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1386
Location: Germany
Joined: 02/11/09
Gender: Male
Re: Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
Reply #12 - 10/09/10 at 08:03:22
Post Tools
A while ago I analyzed the Riga and saw the strong 17. Kg1!. I didn't find a way to repair 8...f6. The main alternative 8...Qd6 seemed to offer faint chances to survive, but it is also +/-, certainly nothing that Black would like to play in a corr. game. 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
aiorla
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


Computers are our friends!

Posts: 4
Location: Barcelona, Catalonia
Joined: 10/08/10
Gender: Male
Re: Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
Reply #11 - 10/08/10 at 19:36:49
Post Tools
I don't know if that will help or destroy the discussion about the "soundness" of Riga Variation, but here goes one of my recent correspondece games...

White - Aitor Ortiz de Latierro
Black - Guillem Mut
Place - Email

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Nxe4 6. d4 exd4 7. Re1 d5 8. Bg5 f6 9. Nxd4 Bc5 10. Nxc6 Bxf2+ 11. Kf1 Qd7 12. Nc3 bxc6 13. Nxe4 Bxe1 14. Nxf6+ gxf6 15. Qh5+ Kf8 16. Rxe1 fxg5 17. Kg1!N (I can't find a game with this move and it seems to give white a good endgame! ) Bb7 18. Qxg5 Qg7 19. Qf5+ Qf7 20. Qe5 Rg8 21. Rf1 Qxf1+ 22. Kxf1 Rg7 23. Qc3 Re8 24. Kg1 Re4 25. Bxc6 Bxc6 26. Qxc6 Rf7 27. h4 Re1+ 28. Kh2 Re2 29. Kh3 Rff2 30. Qc5+ Kf7 31. Qxd5+ Ke7 32. g3 Rxc2 33. Qe4+ Kd8 34. Qxh7 Rxb2 35. Qd3+ Ke7 36. a4 Rh2+ 37. Kg4 Rb6 38. Qc4 Kd7 39. Kg5... And we drawed later because I didn't know how to play the endgame...

I'm not sure if white can win in the endgame, but the line is quite forced, and the "final" position of the "combination" seems fine for white...
What do you think about it?

Aitor
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
NeverGiveUp
Full Member
***
Offline


Never despair in a lost
position

Posts: 221
Joined: 11/18/09
Re: Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
Reply #10 - 10/08/10 at 09:36:32
Post Tools
Dear Markovich,

In the link you posted the following:

"You really should not dream of winning quickly with this variation unless your opponents are unbooked.  It's mainly an invitation to a particular ending.

12. Qd8+ Qxd8  13. Nxd8 Kxd8  14. Kxh2 Be6 and now, in my view, a very challenging idea is 15. c3, preserving the two bishops.  I believe that this idea is due to Tarrasch. Subsequent play is unforced, but considering that White keeps his bishops and that there is still a great deal of wood on the board, I would much rather have the minor pieces.  I admit it's a game of chess, but White's chances are better than in the initial position.

For example, if 15...f5  16. Bg5+ Kc8  17. Nd2 h6  18. Be3 Rd8 it appears to me that White doesn't even need to prevent ...Rd3 but can just go ahead and play 19. f3. "

I agree that 15.c3 is a critical line, and that it is a good idea for white to preserve the bishops pair.

I suggest that after 18.Be3 black should continue with 18. ... g6(!) 19.f3 ef3: 20.Nf3 b5 20.Bc2 Re8, followed by Kb7, with approximate equality (21.Ne5 Bd5).

So we agree to disagree (I agree) - but who is right then?  Shocked
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Göran
Senior Member
****
Offline


ChessPublishing is great!

Posts: 452
Location: Sweden
Joined: 02/13/08
Gender: Male
Re: Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
Reply #9 - 10/06/10 at 15:17:32
Post Tools
"The modern theorists Khalifman, Kortchnoi and Flear have reexamined the Riga Variation of the Ruy Lopez as did many earlier chess greats and all considered it falling short, while Flear in his Open Ruy Lopez treatise considered it sound if controversially complex." - http://kindredspiritks.wordpress.com/2008/03/12/kindreds-special-a-new-riga-vari...
  

What kind of proof is that?
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Göran
Senior Member
****
Offline


ChessPublishing is great!

Posts: 452
Location: Sweden
Joined: 02/13/08
Gender: Male
Re: Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
Reply #8 - 10/06/10 at 15:00:35
Post Tools
  

What kind of proof is that?
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
Reply #7 - 10/06/10 at 14:22:53
Post Tools
We'll have to agree to disagree, it seems.  The idea that White can lose that endgame seems a little funny to me.  An excellent way for White to play it is whith c2-c3, saving his two bishops.  This was Tarrasch's idea.  It's been discussed at some length on this forum; see here: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1120352989

But I believe there are even earlier, more extensive discussions that I can't take the trouble to find.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
NeverGiveUp
Full Member
***
Offline


Never despair in a lost
position

Posts: 221
Joined: 11/18/09
Re: Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
Reply #6 - 10/06/10 at 08:08:22
Post Tools
Thanks for this Markovich.

In the YB85 the stand was taken that the endgame doesn't promise white much - and Matemax agrees with this. A lot of lines lead to no advantage at all, and in the long run white is in serious risk of losing. There are a few lines where black might get in trouble - but with exact play he's allright. That scenario compares favorably agains almost any major Ruy Lopez line, doesn't it? Especially given the fact that white is thrown into a type of position he's seriously unfamiliar with. I have now played something like 20 games with the endgame (several agai Roll Eyesnst 2200+ players), lost only one, had several draws, and won something like 7. The one loss was a theoretical game where afterwards I found an improvement for black leading to equality.
So I challenge you - to show me with some concrete analyses how white would get the advantage in the endgame? Roll Eyes
My prediction is that this is a very hard task if not near impossible  Sad and that Berger's line (8.Bg5) is the only real test for black. Matemax is right that black is on this ice here - but it looks like the ice is holding!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
Reply #5 - 10/06/10 at 00:39:57
Post Tools
I myself think that the Riga Variation is no good.  The best line for White is very easy to remember, and it produces an advantageous endgame for White.  Computers seem to have trouble with these N+B vs. R positions, but if you look at these particular ones carefully, Black has a hard row to hoe.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10640
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
Reply #4 - 10/04/10 at 16:34:08
Post Tools
Don't expect an anser from Drkodos. His last post was on 02/24/09.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
NeverGiveUp
Full Member
***
Offline


Never despair in a lost
position

Posts: 221
Joined: 11/18/09
Re: Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
Reply #3 - 10/04/10 at 13:20:00
Post Tools
Dear Drkodos,

Good to see a supporter of this line which I believe is much better than its reputation. Cheesy
The rook ending "refutation" (the Bg5 line) although an absolutely brilliant piece of analysis from Matemax isn't a poper refutation for me since I'm not convinced the rook ending is winning for white - as you are. Some general considerations: the king is well placed on g4 ready to quickly support the advanced g-pawn once it becomes a passed pawn - black only needs to activate his rook and can do this by 26. ...Rf8+(!) (rather than Rb8) 27.Ke2 Re8+ (! - cutting the king off along the e-file) 28.Kd3 Re7 and now if 29.Ra6: then either 29. ... Rf7 threatening Rf3+-h3, or 29. ... h5, in both cases with good and substantial counterplay for black that should probably be sufficient to draw. My conclusion - this long line is not the refutation of the riga and it's therefore alive and kicking! Wink
I find it surprising that any white does actually plays these lines - it goes so deep that no one witt really know the theory?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
drkodos
God Member
*****
Offline


I see....stars.

Posts: 778
Location: Jupiter, and beyond
Joined: 03/29/07
Re: Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
Reply #2 - 12/08/08 at 15:19:31
Post Tools
I am surprised (and disappointed   Wink ) that no one of the Riga Brigagde (those that consider it unsound!) have come in here and cut this to ribbons, or on the other hand, admitted that Bg5 may not be the best path for White to gain advantage.

I believe it is not.  I think Bg5 allows Black to hold with accurate play.



I maintain that the Riga is a viable opening choice for Black, the best path to White advantage is detailed by Khalifman in COFWATA, and even in this line, Black can get playable game against all but the highest Masters/IM, GM.


~  Happy Holidaze from drkodoze
« Last Edit: 12/08/08 at 16:58:54 by drkodos »  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Papageno
Senior Member
****
Offline


FM

Posts: 299
Location: Germany
Joined: 06/12/08
Gender: Male
Re: Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
Reply #1 - 12/03/08 at 15:33:16
Post Tools
drkodos wrote on 12/03/08 at 02:12:56:
GAME 2

White Rating 2387
Black Rating (Provisional) 1800

   1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.O-O Nxe4 6.d4 exd4 7.Re1 d5 8.Bg5 f6 9.Nxd4 Bc5 10.Nxc6 Bxf2+ 11.Kf1 Qd7 12.Nc3 bxc6 13.Nxe4 Bxe1 14.Nxf6+ gxf6 15.Qh5+ Kf8  16 Re1 !  Strongest for white, so far, but perhaps still not the path to a forced win!   16... fxg5 17. Qh6+ Kf7 18. Bxc6 Qd6 19. Qh5+ Qg6 20. Bxd5+ Be6 21. Qf3+ Qf6 22. Qxf6+ Kxf6 23. Rxe6+ Kf5 24. g4+ Kxg4 25. Bxa8 Rxa8 26. Rh6  (This position was given as +/= and sometimes +/- in previous analysis)  Rb8 27. b3 Rf8+ 28. Ke2 Rf7 29. Rxa6 h5 30. a4 Re7+ 31. Kf1 Rf7+ 32. Kg2 Kf4 33. a5 g4 34. Re6 Rd7 35. Rf6+ Ke5 36. Rf8 Rd2+ 37. Kg3 Rxc2 38. a6 Ra2 39. Rh8 Rxa6 40. Rxh5+ Ke4 41. Rc5 Rh6 42. Rxc7 Rh3+ 43. Kxg4 Rxh2 44. b4 Rb2 45. Rb7 Kd5 46. Kf4 Kc4  1/2-1/2


Game 2 is interesting food for thought. I'm a little bit in doubt about the quality of play in the rook ending.

34. Rc6! might well have been a move that secures the win for white. Comparing to the game, white is driving the black king out of its most active position by means of Rc4+. In addition, white in some lines picks up the black c-pawn or brings his rook behind his a-pawn.

Black however might improve earlier in the game with 30. ... Kh3! using his king as actively as possible.

Regards!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
drkodos
God Member
*****
Offline


I see....stars.

Posts: 778
Location: Jupiter, and beyond
Joined: 03/29/07
Riga Variation - Berger Line 8.Bg5 (Two CC Games)
12/03/08 at 02:12:56
Post Tools
2 Recent Riga Variation games.  First game is not critical, but may be interesting because Black's position is ugly looking and looks impossible to hold, but a nice resource appears!

The second game is more critical as it follows some analysis published in NIC YB 86.  The position looks grim indeed for black after 26 Rh6, but despite being in a pickle barrel, black holds in this game because of superior king position.

GAME 1

White Rating 2155
Black Rating (Provisional) 1800

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.O-O Nxe4 6.d4 exd4 7.Re1 d5 8.Bg5 f6 9.Nxd4 Bc5 10.Nxc6 Bxf2+ 11.Kf1 Qd7 12.Nc3 bxc6 13.Nxe4 Bxe1 14.Nxf6+ gxf6 15.Qh5+ Kf8 16.Bh6+?! (Stronger is 16.Re1 as seen in GAME 2) Ke7 17.Rxe1+ Kd8 18.Qf3 Qf5 19.Qxf5 Bxf5 20.Bxc6 Rb8 21.Bg7 Rg8 22.Bxf6+ Kc8 23.Bxd5 Rf8 24.Bg7 Rd8 25.c4 Kd7 26.Kf2 c6 27.Bf3 Rg8 28.Be5 Rbf8 29.h3 Rg6 30.b3 Re6 31.c5 Kc8 32.Bd6 Rff6 33.Re5 Kb7 34.Ke3 Rxe5+ 35.Bxe5 Re6 36.Kf4 Bc2 37.g4 Re8 38.g5 Rf8+ 39.Bf6 a5 40.h4 Re8 41.h5 Re1 42.Kg3 a4 43.Kf2 Rb1 44.bxa4 Rb4 45.a5 Ra4 46.Bd8 Rxa2 47.Kg3 Ra3 48.Kf4 Rxf3+ 49.Kxf3 Bd1+ 50.Ke4 Bxh5 51.Kd4  1/2- 1/2


This next game is more crtical test of the line, and black is fine!

GAME 2

White Rating 2387
Black Rating (Provisional) 1800

   1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.O-O Nxe4 6.d4 exd4 7.Re1 d5 8.Bg5 f6 9.Nxd4 Bc5 10.Nxc6 Bxf2+ 11.Kf1 Qd7 12.Nc3 bxc6 13.Nxe4 Bxe1 14.Nxf6+ gxf6 15.Qh5+ Kf8  16 Re1 !  Strongest for white, so far, but perhaps still not the path to a forced win!   16... fxg5 17. Qh6+ Kf7 18. Bxc6 Qd6 19. Qh5+ Qg6 20. Bxd5+ Be6 21. Qf3+ Qf6 22. Qxf6+ Kxf6 23. Rxe6+ Kf5 24. g4+ Kxg4 25. Bxa8 Rxa8 26. Rh6  (This position was given as +/= and sometimes +/- in previous analysis)  Rb8 27. b3 Rf8+ 28. Ke2 Rf7 29. Rxa6 h5 30. a4 Re7+ 31. Kf1 Rf7+ 32. Kg2 Kf4 33. a5 g4 34. Re6 Rd7 35. Rf6+ Ke5 36. Rf8 Rd2+ 37. Kg3 Rxc2 38. a6 Ra2 39. Rh8 Rxa6 40. Rxh5+ Ke4 41. Rc5 Rh6 42. Rxc7 Rh3+ 43. Kxg4 Rxh2 44. b4 Rb2 45. Rb7 Kd5 46. Kf4 Kc4  1/2-1/2



Long live the Riga.


I am still checking both games for possible improvements.  Both games played on ICCF 10 moves/50 days.  


Please point out mistakes, improves and even critique format of post !   Smiley

~ drkodos
  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo