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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) The Black Lion 2nd edition (Read 17004 times)
MNb
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Re: The Black Lion 2nd edition
Reply #20 - 01/23/09 at 00:29:43
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Thanks.
I wouldn't castle, giving Black an object for attack, but play Nge2. If Black plays ...Qa5 or ...b5 then I play Nc1 as this knight will delay Black's attack on the Queen's wing. My plan is grabbing space with g4, h4, transferring the other knight to g3.
After 3...e5 White may play 4.Nge2 and chose the same setup.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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motörhead
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Re: The Black Lion 2nd edition
Reply #19 - 01/22/09 at 23:22:06
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MNb wrote on 12/29/08 at 02:22:12:
motörhead wrote on 12/28/08 at 21:26:50:
Once again I ask the critics: Show the most "dangerous lines" to the public. So that we can learn from it.


I did after reading the first (Dutch) edition and send the authors a letter. I got a very friendly response with a lot of lines; I may hope they have included them in the newer editions.

But you may answer my question: have my two compatriots spend some pages at 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nbd7 4.Be3 e5 5.Nge2 idea f2-f3 and Qd1-d2 ? This is quite dangerous, you know.



I' ve been off the track for a while. The line you give poses Black sprecial problems, no doubt. That sämisch-like set-up has to be taken serious. But it should be possible to cope with it.
Someone inthis thread has given the review on ChessVibes (http://www.chessvibes.com/reviews/review-the-black-lion/#more-5402), which deals a little with that line you give, MNb. I take out the most important facts:
"1. e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nbd7 4.Be3 e5 5.f3 Be7 6.Qd2 c6 7.0-0-0 Qa5 8.g4 b5 9.Kb1 This line has been played by two very strong White players, Judit Polgar and Lazaro Bruzon Bautista, so it can definitely be considered critical." (sic!) "Black normally plays 9…Nb6
The authors note:
'This move is intended to create extra pressure on the queenside, but it also serves to vacate the d7-square for the Nf6, in case White advances his g-pawn.'
Polgar now played 10.b3 to prevent Na4 and start an attack of her own, but as the authors show, after the correct reply 10…b4 11.Ne2 c5 (they even claim Black is better after 11…0-0) 12.dxc5 dxc5 as played in the correspondence game Carroll-Vanhamme, 2004, Black has a lot of counter chances. This seems one of those typical cases where Black suddenly is fine after White pushes too hard. However, the authors are completely silent about what Bruzon played:
10.a3! (Ignoring the threat of Nc4, this is also the computer’s suggestion) 10…Nc4 11.Bxc4 bxc4 12.g5 Nd7 13.d5! This positional approach (White intends to play f3-f4 and expansion the king’s side) definitely looks (slightly) more pleasant for White (Bruzon-Miles, 2001)."
So far. Miles drew that game, but was severely under pressure, to admit it.
Btw. The one who doesn't like that strangulation can take his way via 1. e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 and now 3...e5. The endgame after 4.dxe5 dxe5 5.Qxd8+ Kxd8 is dealt with in some greater depth in the book. Yes, sure, White can play 4.Be3 anyway, but that exerts no pressure on the center, so Black isn't forced to cover e5. He can commence with c6, Be7, Qa5 or c7, b5 being a valid tempo up to the line mentioned. Or he hits the center himself with Nc6 or exd4 first. But that are only reflections, I haven't checked it, to be honest.

But more important to me: Is there any dangerous White line in the main line, that is the normal Philidor-setup with e4, d4, Nc3 and f3, Bc4 and 0-0 facing the Lion-setup with Nd7/f6 d6, e5, h6 and g5?
Has anybody dramatic experiences with that? Ideas to kill Black right away? The Lion is quite often jugded to be dubios in this thread. So what about something concrete?
So far, so good, so what...
cheese
  

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MNb
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Re: The Black Lion 2nd edition
Reply #18 - 12/29/08 at 02:22:12
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motörhead wrote on 12/28/08 at 21:26:50:
Once again I ask the critics: Show the most "dangerous lines" to the public. So that we can learn from it.


I did after reading the first (Dutch) edition and send the authors a letter. I got a very friendly response with a lot of lines; I may hope they have included them in the newer editions.

But you may answer my question: have my two compatriots spend some pages at 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nbd7 4.Be3 e5 5.Nge2 idea f2-f3 and Qd1-d2 ? This is quite dangerous, you know.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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Re: The Black Lion 2nd edition
Reply #17 - 12/28/08 at 21:26:50
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MNb wrote on 12/23/08 at 02:32:17:
It's worse; I doubt their integrity. The two authors are so enthusiastic about their pet system that they forget to look for White's most dangerous lines; at least that was the case with the Dutch edition I borrowed from the library. And that's not a matter of quality, insight or ability, it's a matter of attitude. We might call it the BDG-syndrome, as all books I have seen about this interesting but dubious gambit are plagued by it.


I have to agree to the "BDG-syndrome" but, come on dudes, show the most "dangerous lines" to the public. It is one thing to critisize on the whole but another to point out the weak points exactly. So show up your cards: What is this most dangerous line? The other side of the BDG-syndrome-coin is that people simply condem it without going concrete.
I only browsed through the book and just can say that it is better than the previous editions. My feeling is that it is +/= or even more for White. But he has to make his way correctly. There are Lions in the Savannah.
Once again I ask the critics: Show the most "dangerous lines" to the public. So that we can learn from it.
  

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Re: The Black Lion 2nd edition
Reply #16 - 12/23/08 at 13:03:28
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One of the players in our club who does not own the books plays it in correspondence with good results. He relies on articles on the internet
  

I am hopelessly addicted to the King's Gambit
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MNb
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Re: The Black Lion 2nd edition
Reply #15 - 12/23/08 at 02:32:17
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It's worse; I doubt their integrity. The two authors are so enthusiastic about their pet system that they forget to look for White's most dangerous lines; at least that was the case with the Dutch edition I borrowed from the library. And that's not a matter of quality, insight or ability, it's a matter of attitude. We might call it the BDG-syndrome, as all books I have seen about this interesting but dubious gambit are plagued by it.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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drkodos
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Re: The Black Lion 2nd edition
Reply #14 - 12/22/08 at 22:45:24
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akita wrote on 12/22/08 at 18:49:46:
Many fine books have been written by so called amateur players recently which have been excellent in my opinion. I think you will find that these so called weaker players really put their heart and soul into the project they undertake and I really encourage more people to write chess books.
 

Heart and soul have nothing to do with quality, insight, and actual ability.  I have had plenty of students plead their case for a better grade by extolling how hard they worked. However, inferior work is inferior work, regardless of how much love and attention something is given.   A lot of the time I have to explain them had they cobbled it together at the last minute I would have graded them better but the fact that they worked so hard to produce such drek makes their final product even more disappointing, and worthless.


akita wrote on 12/22/08 at 18:49:46:
Just because you are a strong player does not atomatically mean that you can write a decent book.


Very true.  But, I have never claimed a book was good because its author was a strong player.



I sense that there is a wide gulf in between your two statements. I believe it is worthy of exploration and could yield interesting insight should you decide to look beneath the initial layers of your statements.


Here is another condemning review quote highlighting THE major problem with this book.  I believe the reviewer logically refutes the very notion of the book itself.

"More importantly, I am greatly puzzled by the following paradox: if the Black Lion is such an appealing system to club players because it’s so simple and easy to learn (as claimed on the back cover), then why would you buy a 250-page book about it - filled with countless variation branches (numbered 1.3.1.1.2 etc.) and complicated analysis of dangerous-looking piece sacrifices?"

I would be most interested in hearing the authors (or their sycophantic defenders) explain away this paradox.


Also: what is the point at about trying to avoid theory?  Chess theory is about making the best moves.  It's that simple a concept!  Why would anyone play a game that is all about making good moves yet they not be interested in making good moves, or not learning what those good moves are and why they are made?  

The Samuel Clemens quote regadring masturbation in a brothel seems most compatible with the concept of chess without theory; especially on website devoted to theory where so many people are actively looking for help in avoiding said theory.


There.  Much more than my two cents.  I kicked in a whole dollar.


#30
  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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Re: The Black Lion 2nd edition
Reply #13 - 12/22/08 at 18:49:46
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Hi All

I have the 1st Edition of the book and I am not quite sure how many changes have been made to update the original version. Does anybody know?

My view is that I applaud any person willing to write a chess book. I do not believe that you have to be a strong player to write one because it depends very much on your target audience.

Many fine books have been written by so called amateur players recently which have been excellent in my opinion. I think you will find that these so called weaker players really put their heart and soul into the project they undertake and I really encourage more people to write chess books.

Just because you are a strong player does not atomatically mean that you can write a decent book. It's a bit like saying oh I am a GM therefore I must be able to coach teach, write etc. Not so in many cases I think and I believe we can all probably give an example of a GM writing a poor boo. Incidently no matter how bad the book I think you can get soething out of it!

So what can I say about this book. Well I would say that it is a good effort but there are many holes within (the 1st edition) the repertoire that has been pointed out elsewhere. I think the biggest problem that Amateurs have is not analysing certain positions because Fritz or Rybka can do that for you but assessing certain positions and this is I think still the strong players domain. The authors are very enthusiastic about their opening and so they should be. Can you think if they were not!!         

I enjoyed the first edition and hope the 2nd edition is well received even if they are not strong players.

Merry Xmas to all

Akita
  
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drkodos
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Re: The Black Lion 2nd edition
Reply #12 - 12/22/08 at 16:18:40
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ChessVibes Review Click Here!

Some excerpts:

"It’s clear that the New in Chess publishers are experimenting."

"In general, reading this book has taught me two things:
1. The Black Lion is not such a bad opening as many White players think.
2. The Black Lion is not such a good opening as the authors think. "


"To be honest, I find it hard to become enthusiastic about Black’s position. Yes, the ‘weakness’ on d6 is gone, but what about e6? According to my database, White has scored tremendously in this position, winning 9 games against just 2 losses, with 6 draws. Surely a rather meager result for one of the ‘most important variations’ of the Black Lion, but, of course, results don’t mean everything. Let’s see what the authors have in store for Black players:"


"And finally, if the opening has such surprise value, then why does the book feature so many dull endgames, where even the simplest moves by White guarantee him a completely sound position, if not a pleasant edge?"



Ouch.  
  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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Re: The Black Lion 2nd edition
Reply #11 - 12/14/08 at 17:19:00
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New In Chess gives the following description at http://www.mattenschaakverhalen.nl/The_Black_Lion-p-923.html:

Quote:
More than 85% of all chess games start with either 1.e4 or 1.d4. The Black Lion presents a flexible, logical and sensible way for Black to meet both of these moves.

This robust, multipurpose opening system (in which Black plays d6, Nf6, Nbd7 and e5) looks quiet, like a sleeping lion - hence the name. But when this predator is provoked, and the game heats up, Black eats its prey in an extremely swift and efficient way.

The opening moves are easy to learn, Black has a good choice of middlegame plans, the positions are fresh and interesting, and White will often struggle to counter Black's ideas.

The story of The Black Lion is remarkable: Jerry van Rekom and Leo Jansen are two strong Dutch club players who developed the system and wrote a book about it in 1997.

Their work attracted a lot of attention and had to be reprinted many times. This is a fully revised and updated edition.

Extensive explanations, clear summaries and concise conclusions make The Black Lion an accessible and easy-to-navigate opening manual for chess amateurs. The book is unique in that its many diagrams are all seen from Black's point of view!

Sean Marsh, Chess Magazine:
"The highly original analysis inspired me to make The Lion my main weapon for Black"

Stefan Bücker, Kaissiber Magazine:
"In many respects a brilliant piece of work"

British Chess Magazine:
"This flexible system will appeal to club and correspondence players who are looking for an all-purpose answer to both 1.e4 and 1.d4"


I'd still really like to see a table of contents showing the Black defense to 1.d4 and to see if the variation MNb mentions is covered.
  
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Re: The Black Lion 2nd edition
Reply #10 - 12/13/08 at 17:25:22
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About the "debate" between books written by GM's or Amateurs: I think that the better are the books where the writer love that what he preaches. To illustrate what I mean a little list.

Samples: Gallagher KID books, Sadler Slav and QGD books, Alburt Pirc Alert!, Rudel Zuke'em (what a piece of love!), De la Villa "Ataque Trompowsky".

Samples or, even better, Antisamples: Plaskett Scandinavian.

    




  

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MNb
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Re: The Black Lion 2nd edition
Reply #9 - 12/13/08 at 15:41:00
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drkodos wrote on 12/12/08 at 22:52:14:
MNb wrote on 12/12/08 at 21:35:47:
.... the authors should do their best to find best play by the virtual opponent. Everybody can do that, unregarding playing strength, especially when aided by some strong chess machine. I feel that the authors fail in this respect, but maybe it's better in the latest edition.



I disagree only with regard that "everbody can do that."  Everybody cannot, I opine.


I meant everybody can do his/her best. It's obvious that it's hard work even for topplayers, or chess would be dead! Like Stigma's example shows I doubt if Van Rekom and Janssen really have done their best to find out White's best play. Johansson clearly did in his three books (finding Black's best play).
Format, layout and navigation are other problems. My, have you seen Danish Dynamite? Layout is so complicated that the two authors forgot a whole chapter (1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.c3 dxc3 4.Bc4 deviations from cxb2).
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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Re: The Black Lion 2nd edition
Reply #8 - 12/12/08 at 22:52:14
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MNb wrote on 12/12/08 at 21:35:47:
.... the authors should do their best to find best play by the virtual opponent. Everybody can do that, unregarding playing strength, especially when aided by some strong chess machine. I feel that the authors fail in this respect, but maybe it's better in the latest edition.



I disagree only with regard that "everbody can do that."  Everybody cannot, I opine.    I think it is often hard for even the very best to find best play for the opposition.  I wish I could.  I cannot.  Believe me, if I could, I would, and I wager so would you!    Wink

1.  I think "strong chess machine" is not so wise as many chess players think it is.
2.  Human judgement is still behind "strong chess machine," often in the form of mathematical expertise versus Chess expertise.


I believe that a skilled and highly functional chess technician can produce servicable books, maybe even seminal ones, regardless of rated playing strength as I do not see any evidence that rating and chess book authorship share a corollary relationship, BUT, and it is a big but (bigger than JLo's), without serious chess wisdom, any author will have far too many blind spots to be considered a "skilled and highly functional chess technician."

Living up to one's reputaion places tremendous burden to actually produce good work.  What do lessors have to lose?  Very little.  So, instead they usually take the road of trying to hard to convince people of their validity.  And the work itself suffers.  And this, when it cannot hope to be all that good to begin with.


For example, I do not think Johannson's King Gambit books are all that good.  They are poorly formatted, edited, full of superfluous lines, and difficult to navigate.   This seems to be the albatross around the neck of every one of these efforts by the "lessors," as I shall call them.  Even though these KG books may have some worthwhile tidbits in them, they are far too tedious to use, have too strong an agenda, and don't even fit on the bookshelf properly.  I wager a stronger player, backed by a better publisher could do beter work.  

(Then again, maybe not.  Where is that anticipated Shaw KG tome?   Grin)


I do not spend money or time purchasing and then reading a book about Cardio-vascular surgery penned by the guy that almost went to med school but couldn't crack the entrance exams.  Too many books written by guys that have actually done the surgery.  Why would it be any different for chess?

Depsite the excellent PR that says it could be, it isn't.   Smiley
  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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Re: The Black Lion 2nd edition
Reply #7 - 12/12/08 at 22:40:00
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I had the 2002 english edition, but in the end I sold it second-hand. The original retail price was ridiculously high too, sure it was hardcover but it was not one of mye best purchases.

What finally made me give up the book was when I saw an early diagram in a line recommended as fine for Black, and immediately thought "Hey, doesn't Bxf7+ just win here?" Win it did, and the authors didn't even consider it (can't remember the precise line now, sorry, but yes there was a Ng5+ follow-up and probably trapping a queen on d8). Anyone writing a book on the Philidor and not considering all possible sacrifices on f7 has lost most of their authority in my eyes.
« Last Edit: 12/13/08 at 18:00:14 by Stigma »  

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Re: The Black Lion 2nd edition
Reply #6 - 12/12/08 at 21:35:47
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The Dutch rating of both Van Rekom and Jansen is higher than 1900. I know, because I am in that 1800/1900 range. Anyhow, I find this whole GM/amateur writing books debate nonsense. Yes, there are some bad books written by GM's. Yes, there are some excellent books written by amateurs. It's stupid to derive definite conclusions from these examples, except one: all books should examined by the same standards, no matter who the author is.
I must say that I only know the first Dutch edition (in my previous post I suggested that I knew the first English one, which isn't the case). My problem with it was a certain bias, the feeling that some challenging white lines were neglected and it's incompleteness. So my judgment was not bad, but certainly not good either (compare Johansson's KG for the creative aggressor, which was much better) and I would not be surprised if the latest editions suffer from the same flaws.
In short: when advocating an opening and certainly an opening like the Lion the authors should do their best to find best play by the virtual opponent. Everybody can do that, unregarding playing strength, especially when aided by some strong chess machine. I feel that the authors fail in this respect, but maybe it's better in the latest edition.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: The Black Lion 2nd edition
Reply #5 - 12/12/08 at 19:51:24
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Ah, the old "GMs are also capable of making oversights (as an aside, do we know that the example cited wasn't a typo?)/writing bad books" trope.  I would submit that that is not a reason not to be wary of books written by, say, players in the 1800s-1900s (as these authors apparently are, by Dutch rating).
  
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Re: The Black Lion 2nd edition
Reply #4 - 12/12/08 at 19:20:33
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I have both the revised 2. or 3. dutch version and now the 2. english version.
I too was astonished to see the Lion named a weapon against 1.e4 and 1.d4 as there is nothing covered that deals with the closed setup d4/c4.
There have been flaws in the dutch version that are corrected now in the 2.english version. This is my first impression.
True, both authors are amateurs but they are enthusiastic and try their best. When I think of some grandmasters typing opening books in a row that directly fail (Look at Soltis' book on 1...d6, where he advocates a variation that looses the queen in ONE move) then there is no reason to joke on amateurs.
What's most important: You have to check the variations yourself to become confident. To me the Lion looks playable but somehow stereotyped. The key is the bayonnet-attack with the g-pawn (h7-h6 and g7-g5) heading for the attack with behind the lines manovres like Qc7/Nd7-f8-g6-f4/Rg8/Bd7/Qc8. That may well work if White isn't aware. I have used the Attack once in correspondence play and won a real nice game with it.
Yes, Van Rekom/Jansen often are to optimistic and give Black a slight plus if only the starting position of the Lion is reached without accident. But that's by far not the whole story.
What strikes on the other hand is that this attacking setup emerges out of the seemingly passive Black setup and that it was once advocated by Aljechine (who, to be honest, hasn't ever played it...). And the book was published by New in Chess. A publisher not known to print rubbish...
  

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Re: The Black Lion 2nd edition
Reply #3 - 12/12/08 at 08:42:30
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Janssen and Van Rekom are both enthusiastic amateurs, although neither of them are FIDE-rated.

The first edition in 2002 was trashed by Flear in an old Yearbook, and with good reason: The English was completely incomprehensible, their exclamation and question marks were completely illogical, they left out a huge number of key variations and their diagrams from black's point of view were found very confusing by many.

I personally wouldn't recommend the book (mainly because of the strength of the authors), but hopefully NIC have fixed up most of the holes to turn out a decent book. However, I don't have either the first or second edition, so it would be better to trust someone who has actually read the second edition.
« Last Edit: 12/12/08 at 19:59:31 by TN »  

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Re: The Black Lion 2nd edition
Reply #2 - 12/12/08 at 06:51:01
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MNb wrote on 12/12/08 at 00:41:00:
The first edition had no coverage of the Old-Indian and I would be surprised if the second edition had. I wonder if this treats 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nbd7 4.Be3 e5 5.Nge2, which was completely ignored.


Agree with mnb that that is a challenging system for the unprepared. (I was online)
Perhaps this will be in the f3, g4 section. Forgive the inconsistent caps in headings. Lots of (sic) reqd.

Look forward to any reviews.
Much overlap with Bauer's book?

Who are they btw? No disrespect, but never heard of them. Perhaps one of our Dutch compadres could enlighten. Enthusiastic amateurs? 2200? below?

TOC:

v Introduction

vi Preface

001 1 The cub

007 2 The Lion´s Den; Variation after 4.f4 e5

059 3 The Lion´s Claw; Attacking through h6 and g5

107 4 The Lion´s head; Double castling on the King side

207 5 The Lion´s roar; Sacrifices on f7

263 6 The Lion´s yawn; The advanced e7-e5

289 7 The Lion´s mouth; White advance with f3 and / or g4

309 8 Illustrative Games

  
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Re: The Black Lion 2nd edition
Reply #1 - 12/12/08 at 00:41:00
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The first edition had no coverage of the Old-Indian and I would be surprised if the second edition had. I wonder if this treats 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nbd7 4.Be3 e5 5.Nge2, which was completely ignored.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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The Black Lion 2nd edition
12/11/08 at 18:52:52
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Dear all,

can anyone give his opinion to this book ?
I had a look at the first edition and did nt found enough ideas against the most critical lines of the philidor, for instance
(1.e4 d6 2. d4 Sf6 3. Sc3 Sbd7 4. Sf3 e5 5.Lc4 Le7 6. 0-0 0-0 7. Te1 c6 8. a4 b6 9. d5)

Furthermore: in the advertisment it is mentioned to be a weapon against 1. e4 and 1.d4. This would mean, that the old-indian had to be covered, but on the website of schach niggemann, there is no mentioning in the overview

Regards
e4d6
  
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