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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Mihael Marin's Spanish (Read 9292 times)
Antillian
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Re: Mihael Marin's Spanish
Reply #22 - 12/20/08 at 13:39:19
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Well off the top of my head, after 18...g6 19.bxc5 Bxc5 is illegal! Or did you mean 19...Qxc5. I am at work and don't have a chess board, but 19...Qxc5 looks playable to be. If 20 Ba3, I see nothing wrong with ...Qxc3.  I will look at this later when i can actually see the board. Hopefully, I won't have to retract this statement  Embarrassed
  

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Ametanoitos
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Re: Mihael Marin's Spanish
Reply #21 - 12/20/08 at 11:32:34
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Yes, i'm reffering to the "absolute" main line of the Rubinstein. The one you are giving.

15.Qe2 on the Petrosian variation at the note 13. This is Khalifman's and Emms' recomendation.
  
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Antillian
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Re: Mihael Marin's Spanish
Reply #20 - 12/20/08 at 00:27:05
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Ametanoitos,

Please clarify.

Are you referring to the position after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.c3 0-0 9.h3 Na5 10.Bc2 c5 11.d4 Qc7 12.Nbd2 Nc6 13.d5 Nd8 14.a4 Rb8 15.axb5 axb5 16.b4 Bd7
17.Nf1 Ne8 18.Ne3 ?

Also 15. Qe2 in what position? Page 126 is on the Petrosian not the Rubinstein.
  

"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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Ametanoitos
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Re: Mihael Marin's Spanish
Reply #19 - 12/19/08 at 11:18:22
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I have noticed two potential problems with Marin's book.

1) In the Rubinstein after 16.b4 Bd7 17.Nf1 Ne8 18.Ne3 is a very reasonable move that is not mentioned at all! In a training game with my coach i played 18...g6 (18...f6 19.Nf5 Rf7 may be better but White has to me better, doesn't he?) 19.bxc5 and now Bxc5 loses, so 19...bxc5 and now a combination with the d5 clearence sacrifice with Nd5 to come places Black in a very critical position!

2) The Rubinstein is excellent IMHO! But both Khalifman and Emms reccomend 15.Qe2 (see page 126) Rfe8 16.b3 Nb6 17.c4 and now Marin gives 17...Nh5 with a slight advantage for Black and stops but here Khalifman continues the analysis claiming a big advantage for White? What is going on here? I really think that the move Qe2 is not good because after Black plays the plan Bf8, Bh6 (with g6 of course and not Nh5) white's set up is worse than that Marin analyses in the main games.

These are small mistakes that spoil a really excellent book i think, but they are both in the absolute critical lines! Any ideas please?
  
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Re: Mihael Marin's Spanish
Reply #18 - 12/18/08 at 22:44:49
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Wow, thanks for all your recommendations and comments. I might try the breyer... It just seems perfect to me... A little to perfect...

It sux that there is no new book about the breyer though...


On the topic. Has anyone played the 12.Bd7 and 13.Nc4 system that Marin recommends? The Petrosian line?

I looked at it, and there is much less information on it than in the Rubinstein line, but it does seem really playable. Is there a hidden point behind it why the Super GM's don't play it? Or is nowdays everyone happy to excange the c pawn?
  
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Re: Mihael Marin's Spanish
Reply #17 - 12/18/08 at 16:25:31
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I'm a breyer player and the games I took inspiration from are the ones from Sassikirian. He handles this opening very well. The only problem is to get explanations from the games. Sometimes he plays the plan Qe7, Qf8 and sometimes Nf8 Ne6 depending on white does. If you can understand the subtilities of the Breyer, you will be rewarded.

The good thing about the breyer is that there is no dead positions and you can always play for the win. You just need to be patient.

Against lower rated oppenent (below 2200), they usually handle the opening badly by closing the center too early or by giving easy play.

The dangerous part is the white kingside attack. It's very important to know in which situation white can sacrifice material to get a crushing attack and when not.

I would suggest the breyer to counter attacking style player who can be patient to exploit the the big queen side space advantage with stopping kingside attack at the same time.
  
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John Shaw
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Re: Mihael Marin's Spanish
Reply #16 - 12/18/08 at 16:09:05
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Raoh,

Checking the book, I did remember to qualify my claim. I said defending for 30 moves was "a frequent necessity for success with the Breyer". That still sounds about right to me. It is obviously a good line, but I don't think there are many Breyer games where Black hacks straight through in 25 moves.  
  
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Re: Mihael Marin's Spanish
Reply #15 - 12/18/08 at 09:58:01
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Raoh wrote on 12/17/08 at 20:01:18:
Yeah i believe that i understand what black has to do in the ruy lopez. I actually like all other Marin's sugestions except the Rubinstein system. I gave it a go to the petrosian system, and it seems i handle it quite ok.

I may try the Breyer soon. Is it just me or do people exagerate when they talk about how passive black is? I mean Shaw in his book starting out the Ruy Lopez says that black has to defend for 30+ moves:S... Can anyone comment this statement? Perhaps a Breyer player?

It seems to me that the breyer isn't so passive at all Undecided

I have only a little experience from the white side. I would say that that comment is exaggerated, but true to a certain extent. Black has to be very careful about freeing breaks, often they are are only freeing to the extent that they open the position and free black from a long game as white then usually starts winning. In the Breyer both sides have to manoeuvre a lot, where white tries to force (or tempt) black into "freeing" his game by applying pressure all over the board. Black on the other hand has to play for those freeing moves, but has to make sure that his pieces are in optimal position and all the while respond to the white pressure (and create pressure of his own).

Imo it is a typical classical opening, where black purely aims for equalisation and less for imbalances. Theoretically it is quite highly rated, but it isnt played that often and I think it has to do with Shaw's statement. There are a lot of top players who have played it, but very few who played it more than 2 or 3 times. I can only think of Sokolov, Spassky and Mamedyarov who did. Though there are some nice games by Karpov, Krammers, Kamsky and so on.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Mihael Marin's Spanish
Reply #14 - 12/17/08 at 21:00:31
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What I like about the Breyer is its flexibility.  Black has less space and often has to respond to White's play (maybe this is why they call it passive), but Black has a variety of options.  I like that I can swing my knights to the kingside or the queenside depending on the situation, and Black frequently has time to better situate the light-squared bishop with Rfb8, Bc8, Bd7, when it can play on both sides.  Black needs to be patient, because the break-out can take some time, but Black rarely seems to be in trouble...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Re: Mihael Marin's Spanish
Reply #13 - 12/17/08 at 20:01:18
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Yeah i believe that i understand what black has to do in the ruy lopez. I actually like all other Marin's sugestions except the Rubinstein system. I gave it a go to the petrosian system, and it seems i handle it quite ok.

I may try the Breyer soon. Is it just me or do people exagerate when they talk about how passive black is? I mean Shaw in his book starting out the Ruy Lopez says that black has to defend for 30+ moves:S... Can anyone comment this statement? Perhaps a Breyer player?

It seems to me that the breyer isn't so passive at all Undecided
  
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Re: Mihael Marin's Spanish
Reply #12 - 12/17/08 at 11:49:00
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just my 2cent...but if you like the french defence you should have a look at the Open Ruy. Striving for c5 (sometimes f5/f6) should give you a good feeling. And in addition to the "french-breaks" you also have the  d4 break you can dream of Wink (and your bishop is not that bad)
  
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Re: Mihael Marin's Spanish
Reply #11 - 12/17/08 at 01:06:37
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Raoh wrote on 12/16/08 at 11:56:35:
no definetly not above 2600+.
I'm just competing in a tournament to get my candidate master norm, and i'm doing quite good.

I can see that it would be hard for me to be outprepared, however i'm kinda dissapointed because although i played many games with his rubinstein variation, i won only one, drew about 10 and lost 2 (1 due to a huge blunder). They were all blitz games, but i was dissapointed by the fact that i had to practicly wait the entire game, watching what my oponent would do.

That's why i'm a little afraid to apply this variation in tournaments, since i don't like draws when the opponent actually plays the line i want him to play.
I started to play e5 because in my last tournament i drew 5 games as black playing the exachange french.

Anyways i guess what i'm wondering is does anyone have any recomendation for me? which line to choose in the ruy lopez? possibly a chigorin line, like cxd or the keres variation?

And since i just gave 35 euros for a book which the main part i don't like, does anyone have any internet pages or pdf files covering the variations i'd like to play?

I hope i don't seem to nag and nag, but i really like the ruy as black, just don't like the passivity of the marin's systems


Do you actually understand what Black is trying to accomplish in the Ruy Lopez?  Black sustains considerable pressure (not necessarily passive, even according to Marin) for quite some time before being able to break out.  Marin does a brilliant job of explaining this and how the two closed variations he selected--Rubinstein and Petrosian--achieve this.  If you flick to the variations tables at the end of each chapter, you're cheating yourself and not getting full value for the book.

More importantly, Marin provides valuable instruction on the Ruy Lopez in general.  After playing his recommended lines for awhile, I have expanded to include the Breyer variation, learning from the useful notes on Chesspublishing and by playing through GM games...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Re: Mihael Marin's Spanish
Reply #10 - 12/16/08 at 20:47:25
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I feel your pain.  Rubinstein is too passive, Zaitsev is too sharp.  But there are plenty of closed systems in-between.  This site is a good resource.  Flear's book too.  Would suggest you look at:

12..cxd4 13.cxd4 and now either 13..Rd8 or 13..Bd7.
  
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Re: Mihael Marin's Spanish
Reply #9 - 12/16/08 at 19:02:22
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Well, it seems to me that 12...cd 13. cd Nc6 -- which I would say is pretty different from 12...Nc6 -- has been the most common continuation there at high level for many years.  I'm not sure what you mean by "can't find any sources" -- do you not get ECO or Informants or a good magazine (never mind ChessPub) etc.? 

A possible book to consult is Glenn Flear's Closed Ruy book of a few years ago.
  
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Raoh
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Re: Mihael Marin's Spanish
Reply #8 - 12/16/08 at 18:22:35
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yeah i know about that. However in that case you at least have the satisfaction that white was to afraid of you to play against you for more than a draw...

I'm wondering if there is a huge diference to play Nc6 at move 12 or at move 13, after cxd....

It does give kinda of a livelier game i think to play it later... But i can't find any sources about this. Guess i'll have to play 12 Nc6 for a while... Embarrassed
  
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