Latest Updates:
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Berlin - early 9...h6 (Read 9128 times)
IMJohnCox
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1547
Location: London
Joined: 01/28/06
Gender: Male
Re: Berlin - early 9...h6
Reply #21 - 01/07/09 at 18:33:04
Post Tools
Yes, a sort of buy-my-book and thanks-to-everyone three pager (or so). Email me if you'd like it.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Antillian
God Member
*****
Offline


Brilliance without dazzle!

Posts: 1753
Joined: 01/05/03
Gender: Male
Re: Berlin - early 9...h6
Reply #20 - 01/07/09 at 12:21:12
Post Tools
slates wrote on 12/23/08 at 12:09:41:
John Cox, a quick question for you; my copy of the Berlin Wall book is missing the introduction (I think everyone's is, actually, iirc) - are there any plans to put a .pdf of this on the website, or are you able to reproduce it here/anywhere?  

Many thanks in advance.


Just got my copy. The first chapter in my copy is called "Positional Introduction". Was there supposed to be another introduction preceding that?
  

"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
cma6
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 167
Location: US
Joined: 07/17/04
Re: Berlin - early 9...h6
Reply #19 - 01/03/09 at 19:50:11
Post Tools
IMJohnCox wrote on 01/02/09 at 11:41:17:
Dennis M did say some nice things as well, by the way!


 Dennis gave an overall very positive review. I should have emphasized the positive for the New Year! I posted Dennis' comments on Quality Chess' editing only because they seemed relevant to the thread.

   Dennis M.'s  main point in his review was that your focus on the ending was entirely justified, making this book very valuable for all students of this key ending.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
IMJohnCox
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1547
Location: London
Joined: 01/28/06
Gender: Male
Re: Berlin - early 9...h6
Reply #18 - 01/02/09 at 11:41:17
Post Tools
Dennis M did say some nice things as well, by the way!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
IMJohnCox
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1547
Location: London
Joined: 01/28/06
Gender: Male
Re: Berlin - early 9...h6
Reply #17 - 01/02/09 at 11:40:39
Post Tools
Wang-Yue had a particularly nihilistic approach involving playing 9...Ke8 and ...Be7, and then just allowing Nxe6 and the exchange of all the rooks and the h-pawns, leading to a same-coloured bishop ending with the queen side fluid. He then played ...b5 and defended with just taking everything on f5, claiming that the bishop ending was drawn. It seems that this is true if White is so rash as to play c4, but Jakovenko, showing why he's in the top ten and Mickey A isn't any more (cf Adams-WY, Thessalonika) proved this wrong by playing e6, Bf4 (forcing ...Ba5) and now just c3, threatening b4 and Bd4. Black had to play ...c5, and now he loses the way I showed in the book, because the White king can get into his queenside.

Not the Berlin's Waterloo at all but the death of this particular concept for defending these positions, I predict. Back to what Kritz was doing all along.

Radja-Carlsen was with 9...Ke8 and ...b6; something I predicted in the book would become fashionable.

I would post the games but for some tedious IT reasons it's hard for me to do so without typing them all out.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
cma6
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 167
Location: US
Joined: 07/17/04
Re: Berlin - early 9...h6
Reply #16 - 01/01/09 at 03:09:34
Post Tools
In Chess Today-2976, Mikhail Golubev gives a brief analysis of Jakovenko-Wang Yue (FIDE Grand Prix 12/08)  in the line 9 Nc3, Ke8, 10 h3, Be7; 11 g4, Nh4

and also of Shirov-Karjakin (Spanish Ch. 11/08) in the line 9 Nc3, Ne7; 10 h3, Ng6; 11 Bg5ch, Ke8; 12 Rad1, Bd7 ("a line often seen at top level"); 13 Nd4, h6; 14 Bc1, Be7 N
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
cma6
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 167
Location: US
Joined: 07/17/04
Re: Berlin - early 9...h6
Reply #15 - 12/31/08 at 02:51:13
Post Tools
I have been vaguely meaning to post a thread about the Wang-Yue Berlin meeting its recent Waterloo in Jakovenko-WY, Elista, and also about Radjabov-Carlsen from Thessalonika, but I haven't got round to it. Anyway, if anyone is interested in the Berlin then those were interesting games, and if anyone cares to post a thread discussing them I'll try and contribute (Shirov-Naiditsch from Dresden was also terrific).
[/quote]

       John, can you post these games so we can get started on analyzing them. Your language "Waterloo" sound quite catastrophic for us Berlin devotees? Is it all over for the Berlin?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
cma6
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 167
Location: US
Joined: 07/17/04
Re: Berlin - early 9...h6
Reply #14 - 12/30/08 at 20:02:00
Post Tools
From Dennis Monokroussos' review in CT-2975:
"there are
quite a few run-ons that look more
like typographical goof-ups than
illiteracy from Cox. (My guess is that
he typed his work on a word
processing program, and when he
accidentally failed to enter a period
the subsequent capital letter was
"corrected" by the program.)"
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ender
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 408
Joined: 05/22/06
Re: Berlin - early 9...h6
Reply #13 - 12/29/08 at 10:22:49
Post Tools
emary can You check your inbox? Smiley
  

2200. Amateur!
Back to top
ICQ  
IP Logged
 
cma6
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 167
Location: US
Joined: 07/17/04
Re: Berlin - early 9...h6
Reply #12 - 12/29/08 at 04:22:15
Post Tools
Papageno wrote on 12/17/08 at 18:04:27:
Just browsing through Cox: Berlin Wall, I realize that he deals with lots of 9th move alternative for Black, just to mention 9...Ne7 (with and without Ng6 in the next move) , 9...Bd7, 9...Be7 and 9...Ke8 (followed by a7-a5-a4!?). Even  9...Be6 is dealt with, amongst the more dubious continuations

However, 9... h6 seems not to be discussed at all, as far as I unterstand. Nor is explained why this move is irrelevant... After all, 9...h6 is among the most popular moves in the position. (In fact, it is the move I have seen most often, when I play the Berlin with the white pieces.) Admittedly, there are a few remarks by Cox scattered over the book: On the side, the move ...h6 is often played soon and quite useful. On the other side, he remarks that late Tony Miles almost never employed it, seeing it as a loss of tempo. Black might need to play h5-h7 in one move, etc.

So, what's the current verdict on this move 9...h6? Which reason (or maybe a concrete line) put it out of use? Did perhaps Khalifman refute it?

IMHO, Black could well consider playing 9...h6 10.h3 and then continue with his usual plans like 10... Bd7 or Ne7 or even 10... Be6. Any opinions?

(Edit: It's all about 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nf6 4. O-O Nxe4 5. d4 Nd6 6. Bxc6 dxc6 7. dxe5 Nf5 8. Qxd8+ Kxd8 9. Nc3)


  Speaking strictly as a player of the 9...Bd7 line, I would say that you have answered your own question, at least in that line.  If Black plays ...h6 before White plays h3, then Blask often has wasted a tempo, since he may have to play ...h5 to slow down the h3/g4/f4-f5 steamroller.  
 Larry Kaufman's book on "The Chess Advantage in Black and White" deals a bit with this ...h6 issue.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
cma6
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 167
Location: US
Joined: 07/17/04
Re: Berlin - early 9...h6
Reply #11 - 12/29/08 at 04:18:32
Post Tools
IMJohnCox wrote on 12/23/08 at 12:45:21:
Slates, it's being reprinted just now with the introduction in. I don't know about plans to put it anywhere. I think Quality feel a bit burned by the reception of their last efforts in that field. In all honesty too no-one's missing that much, just a few thanks to various people and usual buy-my-book stuff. If you (or anyone else really) care to email me - johncox@dewarhogan.co.uk - I can email you a copy of the intro, unless Jacob objects.


 John, I do think a .pdf needs to be posted for missing sections.  My copy had "Understanding the Berlin Wall", pp. 9-15, but no other introduction. Should there have been an additional introduction?

  Here is another misprint: in "Endings with 3 minor pieces each", the first example, starting on p. 70, is Chandler-Jonkman, which continues on the right-hand column of p. 71.  On p.71, the right- and left-hand columns were reversed.
  Since I'm only up to p.71, there may be other such printing mishaps later on. As a player of the ...Bd7 Berlin for years, I can say that the analysis is first rate. But Quality Chess owes the purchasers an internet .pdf to correct the printing errors. The pdf file would be of no use if one does not have the book.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Antillian
God Member
*****
Offline


Brilliance without dazzle!

Posts: 1753
Joined: 01/05/03
Gender: Male
Re: Berlin - early 9...h6
Reply #10 - 12/23/08 at 15:20:26
Post Tools
IMJohnCox wrote on 12/23/08 at 12:45:21:
Slates, it's being reprinted just now with the introduction in. I don't know about plans to put it anywhere. I think Quality feel a bit burned by the reception of their last efforts in that field. In all honesty too no-one's missing that much, just a few thanks to various people and usual buy-my-book stuff. If you (or anyone else really) care to email me - johncox@dewarhogan.co.uk - I can email you a copy of the intro, unless Jacob objects.


Aagard did mention he might do a pdf update to address a few missing lines in Avrukh's  Grandmaster Repertoire 1 - 1.d4 Vol 1. So surely, he would be open to this??

In any case, I can't imagine why Quality Chess should feel burnt? Surely not because a few people on this forum criticized the update to Marin's "Beating the Open Games"  Shocked Hard to believe that the typically more vocal minority should be interpreted as the will of the majority.
  

"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
slates
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 507
Location: England
Joined: 01/27/05
Gender: Male
Re: Berlin - early 9...h6
Reply #9 - 12/23/08 at 12:47:35
Post Tools
Thanks John, will email you. I understand Jacob's frustrations - I bought the Marin book and have a few of the other Quality titles and have followed the threads here.  Great content in the books but occasionally it seems gremlins get into them at printing stage  Sad
Thanks
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
IMJohnCox
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1547
Location: London
Joined: 01/28/06
Gender: Male
Re: Berlin - early 9...h6
Reply #8 - 12/23/08 at 12:45:21
Post Tools
Slates, it's being reprinted just now with the introduction in. I don't know about plans to put it anywhere. I think Quality feel a bit burned by the reception of their last efforts in that field. In all honesty too no-one's missing that much, just a few thanks to various people and usual buy-my-book stuff. If you (or anyone else really) care to email me - johncox@dewarhogan.co.uk - I can email you a copy of the intro, unless Jacob objects.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
slates
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 507
Location: England
Joined: 01/27/05
Gender: Male
Re: Berlin - early 9...h6
Reply #7 - 12/23/08 at 12:09:41
Post Tools
John Cox, a quick question for you; my copy of the Berlin Wall book is missing the introduction (I think everyone's is, actually, iirc) - are there any plans to put a .pdf of this on the website, or are you able to reproduce it here/anywhere?  

Many thanks in advance.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
IMJohnCox
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1547
Location: London
Joined: 01/28/06
Gender: Male
Re: Berlin - early 9...h6
Reply #6 - 12/23/08 at 11:35:24
Post Tools
My first thought is that today an early ...Be6 is mainly played with the idea of meeting Ng5 with ...Ke7. I would expect the drawback of 9 ...h6 10 h3 Be6 to be that you are not in time to stop Ne2-f4xe6, and normally this is something you don't want to happen. But if a German IM has been playing it regularly (I hadn't noticed this) then he must have some idea, of course.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Papageno
Senior Member
****
Offline


FM

Posts: 299
Location: Germany
Joined: 06/12/08
Gender: Male
Re: Berlin - early 9...h6
Reply #5 - 12/22/08 at 23:29:17
Post Tools
Thanks for your replies, especially the clarifications by book author John Cox.

I noticed that German GM Naiditsch regularly uses the Berlin Wall, and in his games he seems to put either 9.... h6 10. h3 Ld7 or 9... Ne7 10. h3 h6 (usually in this order) out of the bag. Just mentioning this because emery opined that the added pair of moves h3/h6 is more useful to white. However, Mr. Naiditsch doesn't seem to think so, nor do I. Ng5 or Bg5 is just too unpleasant a move/threat in many lines.

As to the question, whether ... h6 introduces some really independent line, there is a little bit I want to add: 9... h6 10. h3 Be6 seems to have been played every now and then in the past century, but it enjoys very little popularity today.

Games of interest might be: Wedberg-Benjamin 1990, Geller-Romanishin, 1977 and Ehlvest-Kortschnoi, 1988. In addition perhaps some games of GM Art Bisguier, and more recently IM(?) Richard Biolek in 2002 to 2004. (Except of the last player, all this material is quite dated. Results are mixed, as always.) Interesting stuff, nevertheless. Black obviously wants to provoke g2-g4 before retreating his Nf5-e7 and Be6-d7, both only if necessary. Sometimes, white gets a free g2-g4 compared to what we see after 9... Ld7 10.h3 h6. (That could very well explain why the system is not used at top level today.) Apart from that, motifs and manoevers are very similar, I observed.

Regards, papageno.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
IMJohnCox
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1547
Location: London
Joined: 01/28/06
Gender: Male
Re: Berlin - early 9...h6
Reply #4 - 12/19/08 at 08:52:36
Post Tools
Papageno, thanks for your interest in my book.

I did mean to say somewhere why I didn't talk about 9...h6 much; perhaps I didn't.

You're right that it's one of the most popular moves, but so far as I could see it doesn't lead to independent positions. The Berlin is very difficult to classify by moves because both sides have such a wide choice at every turn, but as you know I divided it into ...Be7 plans, ...Bd7 plans or ...Ne7 plans (or some other specific plans with ...b6, ...early ...a5 or 9..Be6). As far as I can see there is no worthwhile plan starting with 9...h6 that doesn't lead into one of the other plans. That's why I didn't treat it independently.

As emary says, most often it's a way of reachng the 9...Ne7 set-up, which has good and bad points. You prevent 9...Ne7 10 Nd4 (games 1-3) or Bg5 (games 8 and 9, I think). But you prevent yourself playing 10...Bg4 or ..Bf5, which is a popular option after 10 b3, for example.

If you want to play ...Bd7 systems then people still sometimes play 9....h6. It stops the Hungarian line which Khalifman recommends (10 Rd1 Kc8 11 Ng5). On the other hand if White plays 10 Rd1+ you can't go 10...Bd7 because of g4 and e6, so you have to go 10...Ke8, and now you have to play ...Ne7 systems, albeit a nice version of them since Rd1 restricts White's choices. I don't know what drawbacks the early ...h6 might have if White plays other systems; I'm afraid I haven't considered that. I deliberately didn't get into transpositional move orders because they are subtle, difficult and personal to the likes and dislikes of the player, and because once you start you never stop.

If you're going to play ...Be7 then ...h6 is usually a waste of time because you don't need to cover g5 anyway. I suppose if you were particularly terrified of Bg5 systems and particularly confident against other setups you might want to try it, but no strong ..Be7 expert does it that way.

It's definitely not a question of a concrete line throwing 9...h6 into doubt, at least as far as I know. Just my decision on how to present the material.

Hope that helps.

I have been vaguely meaning to post a thread about the Wang-Yue Berlin meeting its recent Waterloo in Jakovenko-WY, Elista, and also about Radjabov-Carlsen from Thessalonika, but I haven't got round to it. Anyway, if anyone is interested in the Berlin then those were interesting games, and if anyone cares to post a thread discussing them I'll try and contribute (Shirov-Naiditsch from Dresden was also terrific).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
emary
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 114
Joined: 07/26/08
Re: Berlin - early 9...h6
Reply #3 - 12/18/08 at 16:23:53
Post Tools
Quote:
Edit: It's all about 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nf6 4. O-O Nxe4 5. d4 Nd6 6. Bxc6 dxc6 7. dxe5 Nf5 8. Qxd8+ Kxd8 9. Nc3)


Hello Papageno!

Maybe you should change the name of the thread into something like this:

John Cox: Berlin Wall: Why is  9...h6  not covered ?!


to have a better chance that John Cox  answers your question   

My point of view: 
As a waiting move 9...h6 makes little sense 
because of White's counter waiting move 10.h3
which is more constructive then 9...h6,
because  there is the danger that black has to play h5 later with a loss of tempo,
while 10.h3 prepares  g4 at least.

I decided to study the Ne7-system first and in this system
9...h6 is at least less flexible than 9...Ne7:   
1) It keeps black's control of d4, but according to Cox black only prevents the white mistake 10.Nd4? this way.
2) 9...h6  prevents 10.Bg5 too. Cox treated the Bg5 idea under the move order
9.Nc3 Ne7 10.h3 Ng6 11.Bg5+ Ke8 and
suggests to play 10...h6 first if you are afraid of 11.Bg5.
I think 9...Ne7 10.Bg5 can be countered by h6
but I have not yet found something about 10.Bg5  in the notes of Cox.

After studying Cox' treatment of your pet system in detail  you certainly can decide if it makes sense for you to play 9...h6.   

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Papageno
Senior Member
****
Offline


FM

Posts: 299
Location: Germany
Joined: 06/12/08
Gender: Male
Re: Berlin - early 9...h6
Reply #2 - 12/17/08 at 22:40:33
Post Tools
Sure, no doubt that Black can do without 9... h6. (E.g. with ...Ne7. I mentioned a couple of other moves.) But that was not my point.

Instead, is there any refutation of this move, so that Cox has any reason not to treat it? Of course, there is some decline in popularity recently for 9...h6 since say Kramnik himself played it more that once e.g. in 2002 and 2005. But why? Still interested in some concrete line.

Regards, papageno.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
emary
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 114
Joined: 07/26/08
Re: Berlin - early 9...h6
Reply #1 - 12/17/08 at 20:17:35
Post Tools
After 9...Ne7 10.Nd4 was thought to be dangerous  and this is Khalifman's recommendation.
An important idea of 9...h6 is to control d4 one more move.
Cox tells us that 9...Ne7 10.Nd4 is nothing for white, therefore he prefers 9...Ne7 often followed by Ng6 and maybe later  by h6. See games 1-3 in chapter 4.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Papageno
Senior Member
****
Offline


FM

Posts: 299
Location: Germany
Joined: 06/12/08
Gender: Male
Berlin - early 9...h6
12/17/08 at 18:04:27
Post Tools
Just browsing through Cox: Berlin Wall, I realize that he deals with lots of 9th move alternative for Black, just to mention 9...Ne7 (with and without Ng6 in the next move) , 9...Bd7, 9...Be7 and 9...Ke8 (followed by a7-a5-a4!?). Even  9...Be6 is dealt with, amongst the more dubious continuations

However, 9... h6 seems not to be discussed at all, as far as I unterstand. Nor is explained why this move is irrelevant... After all, 9...h6 is among the most popular moves in the position. (In fact, it is the move I have seen most often, when I play the Berlin with the white pieces.) Admittedly, there are a few remarks by Cox scattered over the book: On the side, the move ...h6 is often played soon and quite useful. On the other side, he remarks that late Tony Miles almost never employed it, seeing it as a loss of tempo. Black might need to play h5-h7 in one move, etc.

So, what's the current verdict on this move 9...h6? Which reason (or maybe a concrete line) put it out of use? Did perhaps Khalifman refute it?

IMHO, Black could well consider playing 9...h6 10.h3 and then continue with his usual plans like 10... Bd7 or Ne7 or even 10... Be6. Any opinions?

(Edit: It's all about 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nf6 4. O-O Nxe4 5. d4 Nd6 6. Bxc6 dxc6 7. dxe5 Nf5 8. Qxd8+ Kxd8 9. Nc3)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo