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Normal Topic PIRC for Black - I need a suggestion (Read 5511 times)
MNb
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Re: PIRC for Black - I need a suggestion
Reply #9 - 12/30/08 at 14:14:03
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JEH wrote on 12/30/08 at 11:56:16:
Anyone have any more info yet, e.g. authours?

Good chance James Vigus will contribute an article on 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2. Alas for you guys I have promised to keep my mouth shut about further details.

Holbox wrote on 12/30/08 at 10:38:26:
In case of 5.h3, as recomended by MNb you can play, 5...Nbd7 and if  6.f4 why not 6...e5 (if everything is exchanged you can play against the isolated e4 pawn). If 7.Nf3 then 7...Qe7 with idea of ...Bg7 and 0-0.


The little experience there has been on this line favoured White. There is also 7.Qf3 in this move order. Alas for Black 5...Bg7 6.f4 Nbd7 7.Nf3 e5 is less precise, as 8.fxe5 is stronger now.

Edit: there is another snag. 5...Nbd7 6.a4 c6 7.g3 Bg7 8.Bg2 0-0 9.Nge2 e5 10.0-0 is a favourable line of the Fianchetto. Black rathers wants to play Nb8-a6-b4 with the idea ...d5. To make things worse, The Archbishop Attack 7.g4 is a dangerous attempt to win a tempo compared to the Fianchetto.
« Last Edit: 12/30/08 at 23:27:52 by MNb »  

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Bibs
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Re: PIRC for Black - I need a suggestion
Reply #8 - 12/30/08 at 13:38:25
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Don't worry, everyone has problems versus 4Be3. Been putting folks in a mither the last 20 years or so.

Particularly as the Archbishop wields his scepter menacingly. Do they have scepters? Not a godbotherer, so not sure.

Go the Modern route and fear ye not.
  
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JEH
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Re: PIRC for Black - I need a suggestion
Reply #7 - 12/30/08 at 12:57:56
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Antillian wrote on 12/30/08 at 12:28:57:


Yep that's the one. I see two authors are proponents of the Black side, so I hope they don't give anything away to the bad guys, leaving presumably Richard the unsurmountable task of finding anything useful for White against the Pirc   Cheesy
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Antillian
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Re: PIRC for Black - I need a suggestion
Reply #6 - 12/30/08 at 12:28:57
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"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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JEH
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Re: PIRC for Black - I need a suggestion
Reply #5 - 12/30/08 at 11:56:16
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Bibs wrote on 12/30/08 at 11:51:18:
There is a Secret Weapons Pirc jobbie coming soon, which if you are lucky, and pray to the appropriate supreme beings, may perhaps look at some of this.


Yep, roll on 2009  Cheesy

Anyone have any more info yet, e.g. authours?
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Bibs
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Re: PIRC for Black - I need a suggestion
Reply #4 - 12/30/08 at 11:51:18
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There is a Secret Weapons Pirc jobbie coming soon, which if you are lucky, and pray to the appropriate supreme beings, may perhaps look at some of this.

  
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JEH
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Re: PIRC for Black - I need a suggestion
Reply #3 - 12/30/08 at 11:39:59
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Well you've got a copy of Vigus's Pirc in Black and Blue, err i mean White  Wink. I've not thought other Pirc books even start to cover 4. Be3 properly.

There isn't really such a thing as a "quick" repetoire anymore, but my simple Pirc philosophy is meet f4 plans with c5, f3 plans with c6 and Nf3 plans with Nc6, i.e. a counter symmetry between White's f and Black's c file.

Of course that means waiting until White has committed. but 4. Be3 doesn't commit, and neither does 5. Qd2. To avoid committing, Black can play 4. ...Bg7, and 5. ...0-0, but then you're castled "into it"
This is a plan I wouldn't even have contemplated until the Vigus book and the Jabova game (Game 60). It might be theoretically viable, however after a year of some interesting and complicated games I found my results in practice to be very poor in the line, except in Blitz (which we're very good  Huh).

So what else? Often touted is delaying castling and Bg7 with an early c6 and b5 to deter White from 0-0-0. But White can now go 0-0 and exploit the Q-side weaknesses.

So if Bg7/0-0 presents a target, and c6/b5 presents a target, what is left? Well there is the Narcisso Dublan plan of waiting with 4. ...c6, 5. ...Nbd7 and e5/Qe7  before Bg7/0-0 (covered in the Vigus book). I've only tried this in a couple of tournament games so far, but equalised comfortably in both. You're committed to a c6 plan, breaking my little philospophy, but you can't have everything.
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: PIRC for Black - I need a suggestion
Reply #2 - 12/30/08 at 10:38:26
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Well 4.Be3 is one of the critical variations because of its flexibility. The line i have played in OTB games is 4...c6.

In case of 5.f3 then 5...Qb6 (Bronstein's idea) risky but direct. If you can grab the b2 pawn, you must. If 6.Rb1 then ok there is not long castle by white. Everyting is about who commits first. The best move seems to be 6.Qc1 and then you should continue with your development and prepare c5 (Bg7, Nbd7, Qc7) but you should control the movements of the white's king.

In case of 5.h3, as recomended by MNb you can play, 5...Nbd7 and if  6.f4 why not 6...e5 (if everything is exchanged you can play against the isolated e4 pawn). If 7.Nf3 then 7...Qe7 with idea of ...Bg7 and 0-0. When white plays x.f4 then you can castle short.

In case of 5.Qd2, many works recomend here 5...b5, I prefer 5...Nbd7 (you can look at L. Ftacnik games).

Of course I'm not a Pirc expert. I play it mostly by feeling, experience and because I was scaried about the theory of the open games.

My 2ct







  

"Ladran, luego cabalgamos", NN
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MNb
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Re: PIRC for Black - I need a suggestion
Reply #1 - 12/29/08 at 23:32:05
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I am not an expert on the Pirc, but I have played 4.f3 and 4.Be3 for more than 25 years, so I should know a little about it. The nicest thing of 4.Be3 is its flexibility. It can transpose to the Classical (if White continues with Be2 and 0-0), the 4.h3 and 5.a4 system, the Austrian Attack (if White continues with h3 and f4), the 150-Attack (Qd2 and Nf3) and finally the Argentinian Attack (Qd2 and f3). Moreover there are options like 5.Qd2 and 6.Bh6 and the Archbishop Attack (5.h3 and 6.g4). So it's a bit bewildering indeed. I'll give you an overview; my main line represents best play for both sides imo.

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6
-If you also have the KID on your repertoire there is good reason to play 2...g6 as 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.Be3 c6 gives Black a wider choice, eg 5.Qd2 Nbd7 and 6...b5.

3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7
-4...Ng4 5.Bg5 h6 6.Bh4 is not as good as the similar idea in the Najdorf (5...a6 6.Be3 Ng4) because Black has lesser control over e5.
-4...c6 5.h3 Bg7 6.f4 and White argues that he has an improved version of the Austrian Attack. If Black does not beware he's gonna get creamed in the style of the Sicilian Grand Prix Attack. After 4...Bg7 5.h3 0-0 Black still has the options of ...Nc6 and ...Bg4, so White usually plays

5.Qd2 c6
-5...0-0 6.0-0-0 c6 (Nc6) 7.f3 with the idea h2-h4-h5, Bh6, sac, sac, mate is for those who enjoy rope-walking.

6.Bh6
-6.f3 b5 from the famous game Kasparov-Topalov, Wijk aan Zee 1998 or 1999 deserves serious attention, but then should be OK for Black. The general opinion the last five decades has been that in the Argentinian Attack Black's King is safer in the centre than on the kingside.
-6.Nf3 (150-Attack) Bg4 7.Be2 Nbd7 8.h3 Bxf3 9.Bxf3 Qc7 seems to be OK for Black as well as long as he bewares of early castling again.
-6.h3 Nbd7 7.Nf3 0-0 8.Bd3 (8.Bh6 and 8.0-0-0 now have less effect, as h2-h3 might be a loss of tempo) e5 followed by ...Qe7 and Black is very solid. 8.a4 is answered with ...b6, an idea from the Classical. Note that the early e4-e5 is less dangerous in this move-order, because the Queen's Bishop is already on e3 (in the Classical it might go to f4).
-After 6.h3 Nbd7 7.f4 b5 or ...0-0 Black argues that Qd2 is misplaced. You see, in the GPA White usually plays Qd1-e1-h4. How serious the loss of tempo is is something I haven't been able to figure out last few years.

6...Bxh6
-6...0-0 is still very risky.

7.Qxh6 Qa5
-7...b5; 7...e5; and 7...Nbd7; have been played regularly as well, but 7...Qa5 might be soundest. A game Chiburdanidze-Piket seems to be critical. White played 8.0-0-0. I don't like the alternative 8.Bd3 as this bishop blocks the d-file.

OK, now let the real experts rise and butcher my comments. Wink
« Last Edit: 12/30/08 at 01:10:14 by MNb »  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Templare2
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PIRC for Black - I need a suggestion
12/29/08 at 21:27:19
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I'd like to ask to Pirc experts to solve a problem for me.

I have some problems to understand the line 4. Be3. I have "The Pirc in Black and White", "Pirc Alert!" and the DVD of Davies but I can't understand the proper sequence of moves.

Black can plays 4.., Bg7 4.., c6 , Withe plays f3 or Nf3 ( The 150 Attack).

I'd like to use your experience in this opening to make a "Quick Repertoire"  against 4. Be3

Tnx
  

"Forza e onore!"
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