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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6? (Read 219511 times)
sloughter
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #191 - 02/08/09 at 21:33:51
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AgreedArKheiN wrote on 02/08/09 at 21:25:35:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5 c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Qf3 Be7 9. Bxc6 Nxc6 10. Qxc6 Bd7 11. Qa6 Qc7 12.Nc3 h6 13.Nf3 0-0 14.Qe2 e4 15.Nd4 Bc5 16.Ndb5 Qc6 17.0-0 Bg4

If 18.Qe1, then I play 18..Rfe8.

  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #190 - 02/08/09 at 21:31:08
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I really like your version of nothing: Wilkes Barre (cooked) Berliner Variation (cooked) Fried Liver (cooked). But to you this is nothing. Did you notice how one post member hung the entire fate of the Ng5 variation, just like Berliner did with his gambit, with 8.Ne4 Ne6, never even considering the candidate move 8.Nh3 which completely neutralizes the effectiveness of 8...Ne6.

Now you, like the other post member, think that just because you might demonstrate equality or better, this invalidates everything I have done. So you, like those before you couldn't resist getting in a dig. As I said about you earlier. Never trust a stranger.

ArKheiN wrote on 02/08/09 at 21:22:33:
You remind me of a chess student I had, he was 6 years old, he told me "after 1.e4 e5, f7 is permanently weakened", he always try to win with 2.Qh5 and 3.Bc4 but despite the fact that he thinks he is winning, he never wins.

I prefer to talk at the end when I know what I am talking about. You are the opposite, you talk first "that is refuted that is refuted" and in the end there is nothing.

  
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ArKheiN
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #189 - 02/08/09 at 21:25:35
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1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5 c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Qf3 Be7 9. Bxc6 Nxc6 10. Qxc6 Bd7 11. Qa6 Qc7 12.Nc3 h6 13.Nf3 0-0 14.Qe2 e4 15.Nd4 Bc5 16.Ndb5 Qc6 17.0-0 Bg4

If 18.Qe1, then I play 18..Rfe8.
  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #188 - 02/08/09 at 21:23:13
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8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bxc6ch Nxc6 10.Qxc6ch Bd7 11.Qa6 Qc7 12.Nc3 h6 13.Nf3 O-O 14.Qe2 e4 15.Nd4 Bc5 16.Ndb5 Qc6 17.O-Osloughter wrote on 02/08/09 at 21:16:30:
You remind me of a chess student I had; when he was unsure or losing, he would remain quiet. I notice that just as soon as he felt like he had a chance to win, he started trash talking, just like you.ArKheiN wrote on 02/08/09 at 21:05:32:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5 c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Qf3 Be7 9. Bxc6 Nxc6 10. Qxc6 Bd7 11. Qa6 Qc7 12.Nc3 h6 13.Nf3 0-0 14.Qe2 e4 15.Nd4 Bc5 16.Ndb5 Qc6

If your intuitons is that strong you should play something like Go. Your intuition seems to not help your chess.


  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #187 - 02/08/09 at 21:22:33
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You remind me of a chess student I had, he was 6 years old, he told me "after 1.e4 e5, f7 is permanently weakened", he always try to win with 2.Qh5 and 3.Bc4 but despite the fact that he thinks he is winning, he never wins.

I prefer to talk at the end when I know what I am talking about. You are the opposite, you talk first "that is refuted that is refuted" and in the end there is nothing.
  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #186 - 02/08/09 at 21:16:30
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You remind me of a chess student I had; when he was unsure or losing, he would remain quiet. I notice that just as soon as he felt like he had a chance to win, he started trash talking, just like you.ArKheiN wrote on 02/08/09 at 21:05:32:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5 c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Qf3 Be7 9. Bxc6 Nxc6 10. Qxc6 Bd7 11. Qa6 Qc7 12.Nc3 h6 13.Nf3 0-0 14.Qe2 e4 15.Nd4 Bc5 16.Ndb5 Qc6

If your intuitons is that strong you should play something like Go. Your intuition seems to not help your chess.

  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #185 - 02/08/09 at 21:10:54
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In order to keep the analyzed lines in one place, here is a way to avoid the complicatons of 8.Ne4 Ne6 i.e. 8.Nh3!? Bxh3 (Ne6 9.Bxb5ch Bd7 10.Qa4 & White is better than the 8.Ne4 line because he can oppose Knights when one of them gets to f4) 9.cxd4! Bd7 10.dxe5 +/= (I'll have to check my analysis here; Black may have a draw by repetition in one of the subvariations). So far, not one menber of this post has tried to engage in an analytical battle over even one variation. Since many are controversial e.g. my latest attempt at an advantage against 8.Ne4 Ne6!sloughter wrote on 02/01/09 at 20:00:15:
In order for the post to have any impact on the development of theory, it is necessary to sort the wheat from the chaff. Here is the analysis posted to date, as well as, original analysis not quoted to date. It is up to the members of the post, if they are so inclined, to accept, modify, or ignore this material in the hope of providing the basis for additional theory and practical play. 

Wilkes-Barre/Traxler

    4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7ch Ke7 6.Bd5 Rf8 (or d6 or Qe8) 7.Bxc6 dxc6 (or bxc6) 8.Nf3 Kf7 (Nxe4 9.Qe2 +/-) 9.d3 +/-

Fried Liver from Pincus

    4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.d4 Bb4ch 7.c3 Be7 8.Nxf7 Kxf7 9.Qf3ch Ke6 10.O-O!

A) 10...Na5 11.Bd3 Bf6 12.Re1 Nc6 13.Be4 g5?! 14.c4 Nxd4 15.cxd5ch Kf7 16.Qd3 Kg7 17.Nc3 Bd7 18.Be3 Rc8 19.Rad1 a6 20.Rd2+/-

B) 10...b5 11.Bxb5 Bb7 12.Bxc6 Bxc6 13.c4 Rf8 (Nb4 14.d5ch Nxd5 15.Rd1 +-) 14.cxd5ch Bxd5 15.Qe2 +-

C) 10...g6 11.Qe4 Rf8 12.f4 Rb8 13.Bb3 a5 14.fxe5 Rxf1ch 15.Kxf1 a4 16.Qg4ch Kf7 17.Qf3ch Kg7 18.Bxd5 +-

Berliner Variation (Ulvestad move order)

4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 b5 6.Bf1 h6 7.Nxf7 Kxf7 8.dxc6 Bc5 9.Be2 +/=
                                                           8.dxc6 Qd5 9.Qf3 +/=

5.exd5 b5 6.Bf1 Nd4 7.c3 Nxd5 8.Ne4 Ne6 (Tentative) 9.d4 exd4 10.Bxb5ch Bd7 11.Bxd7ch Qxd7 12.O-O dxc3 13.Nbxc3 Nxc3 14.bxc3 Qxd1 15.Rxd1 f5 16.Ng5 Nxg5 17.Bxg5 Bd6 18.Rd5 O-O 19.Rad1+/=

Berliner Variation:

4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nd4 6.c3 b5 7.Bf1 Nxd5 8.Ne4 Qh4 9.Ng3 Bg4 10.f3 e4 11.cxd4 Bd6 12.Qe2 Be6 (12...O-O 13.fxg4 Bxg3ch 14.Kd1 +-; 12...Bxg3ch 13.hxg3 Qxh1 14.Qxb5ch Bd7 15.Qxd5 +/-) 13.Nc3 (13.Qf2+/-) 13...Nxc3 14.dxc3 Bxg3ch 15.hxg3 Qxh1 16.Qxb5ch Kf8 17.fxe4 +-

The 5...Na5 material will be provided in a separate postMarkovich wrote on 02/01/09 at 17:25:08:
TN wrote on 02/01/09 at 08:48:11:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=dx-J71v3JkU

The video highlights one of several holes in your childish attempt at refutation.


May I suggest that we all remain civil?  Even chilldish, even obnoxious attempts are deserving of respect.  We all love chess.


  
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ArKheiN
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #184 - 02/08/09 at 21:05:32
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1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5 c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Qf3 Be7 9. Bxc6 Nxc6 10. Qxc6 Bd7 11. Qa6 Qc7 12.Nc3 h6 13.Nf3 0-0 14.Qe2 e4 15.Nd4 Bc5 16.Ndb5 Qc6

If your intuitons is that strong you should play something like Go. Your intuition seems to not help your chess.
  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #183 - 02/08/09 at 21:01:19
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This may be a bust for White either kicking it backwards to 8.Be2 or I'll have to find some other way to get the advantage. 8...Be7 appears to be the critical test of 8.Qf3.

8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bxc6ch Nxc6 10.Qxc6ch Bd7 11.Qa6 Qc7 12.Nc3 h6 13.Nf3 O-O 14.Qe2 e4 15.Nd4 Bc5 16.Ndb5 (I'll start looking at the other 8...Be7 lines again. As I indicated long ago, sometimes it takes months for my intuition to kick in)ArKheiN wrote on 02/08/09 at 20:12:54:
Quote:
Do you really want to continue the game? Pay attention Luke, the Jedi Master, Yoda is about to give you a chess lesson. 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5ch c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bxc6ch Nxc6 10.Qxc6ch Bd7 11.Qa6 Qc7 12.Nc3 +-


Quote:
May the farce be with you!

4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5ch c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bxc6ch Nxc6 10.Qxc6ch Bd7 11.Qa6 Qc7 12.Nc3 h6 13.Nf3 Mate in 62!


Etc Etc. All that and 3 moves later you seems to begin to understand my compensations, you come with a "now doubt are aware, 8...Be7 is closer to equality rather than a clear win for White" etc. 8..Rb8 is probably fine too, your victory against Fritz doesn't means nothing about the fact that the line may be equal. Interesting that you did not eat the pawn with 15.Nxe4, telling me that you will win with 3 pawns up.

Now the game.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5 c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Qf3 Be7 9. Bxc6 Nxc6 10. Qxc6 Bd7 11. Qa6 Qc7 12.Nc3 h6 13.Nf3 0-0 14.Qe2 e4 15.Nd4 Bc5

  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #182 - 02/08/09 at 20:12:54
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Quote:
Do you really want to continue the game? Pay attention Luke, the Jedi Master, Yoda is about to give you a chess lesson. 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5ch c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bxc6ch Nxc6 10.Qxc6ch Bd7 11.Qa6 Qc7 12.Nc3 +-


Quote:
May the farce be with you!

4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5ch c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bxc6ch Nxc6 10.Qxc6ch Bd7 11.Qa6 Qc7 12.Nc3 h6 13.Nf3 Mate in 62!


Etc Etc. All that and 3 moves later you seems to begin to understand my compensations, you come with a "now doubt are aware, 8...Be7 is closer to equality rather than a clear win for White" etc. 8..Rb8 is probably fine too, your victory against Fritz doesn't means nothing about the fact that the line may be equal. Interesting that you did not eat the pawn with 15.Nxe4, telling me that you will win with 3 pawns up.

Now the game.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5 c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Qf3 Be7 9. Bxc6 Nxc6 10. Qxc6 Bd7 11. Qa6 Qc7 12.Nc3 h6 13.Nf3 0-0 14.Qe2 e4 15.Nd4 Bc5
  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #181 - 02/08/09 at 19:43:50
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sloughter wrote on 02/08/09 at 18:44:02:
The real question is White's c-pawn; if it is still there and passed in 10 moves, Black has a problem. If you get enough counterplay to stifle it, you will have good chances to equalize. I'm not so sure that 14...e4 equalizes, though. I'll try 15.Nd4


Seems like you're misjudging the position. Black is not trying to equalize. He's playing for a win, and in your game I'd say black is already much better. You'll see soon.
  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #180 - 02/08/09 at 18:45:12
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Clever reparte; no substance.The Hand wrote on 02/08/09 at 18:37:35:
Hire attorney for your "failure to perform" lawsuit against GM Alburt.

  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #179 - 02/08/09 at 18:44:02
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As you now doubt are aware, 8...Be7 is closer to equality rather than a clear win for White---it was an exaggeration just to make a point. 8...Be7 may be +/= but 8...Rb8 is closer to +/- (I have beaten Fritz 8 in this variation). The real question is White's c-pawn; if it is still there and passed in 10 moves, Black has a problem. If you get enough counterplay to stifle it, you will have good chances to equalize. I'm not so sure that 14...e4 equalizes, though. I'll try 15.Nd4

4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5ch c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bxc6ch Nxc6 10.Qxc6ch Bd7 11.Qa6 Qc7 12.Nc3 h6 13.Nf3 O-O 14.Qe2 e4ArKheiN wrote on 02/08/09 at 12:35:30:
It would take too much time to me to play 13..e4 too, because there is a lot of ideas here. I will stay with 13..0-0 alone yet because I believe it's good enough to "keep" equality.

[quoteHere are the seven moves that it takes to cook 8...Be7: 1.Bxc6ch, 2.Qxc6ch, 3.Qa6 4.Qe2, 5.Nc3, 6.d3, 7.O-O The order depends on what responses Black makes. This position is +- Why? Because White has a four to one pawn majority on the Queenside, a protected passed pawn and Black has no compensation for either one.
]


You played 5 of your "key moves for win", but I won't let the time to play d3 now, I play 14..e4! now.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5 c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Qf3 Be7 9. Bxc6 Nxc6 10. Qxc6 Bd7 11. Qa6 Qc7 12.Nc3 h6 13.Nf3 0-0 14.Qe2 e4



[/quote]
  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #178 - 02/08/09 at 18:37:35
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Hire attorney for your "failure to perform" lawsuit against GM Alburt.
  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #177 - 02/08/09 at 18:07:30
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Clever reparte, no substance. Please be more specific. What analysis are you contesting? Just one or two examples would suffice. I published an entire summary of my theories and the contributions of the other post members, yet you do not cite a single example of faulty analysis. Keep flapping your arms; you may start flying, too.MUBAs Opponent wrote on 02/08/09 at 13:29:57:
sloughter wrote on 02/08/09 at 02:38:29:
There is a standard adage in the law. When you don't have the facts on your side, argue the law. When you don't have the law on your side, argue the facts. When you don't have either on your side, wave your arms.

And when you don't have the chess analysis on your side, argue the adages.....

  
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