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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6? (Read 219487 times)
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #236 - 02/12/09 at 16:30:50
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Re5 is impossible in the game as quoted.  Rfe8 instead of Rfb8?
  
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ArKheiN
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #235 - 02/12/09 at 13:55:14
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Hey sloughter, are you still alive? Just in the case you did forgot our game: I have played 21..Re5 some days ago.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5 c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Qf3 Be7 9. Bxc6 Nxc6 10. Qxc6 Bd7 11. Qa6 Qc7 12.Nc3 h6 13.Nf3 0-0 14.Qe2 e4 15.Nd4 Bc5 16.Ndb5 Qc6 17.0-0 Bg4 18.Qe1 Rfe8 19.h3 Bd7 20.b4 Bb6 21.Qe2 Re5


« Last Edit: 02/12/09 at 16:40:15 by ArKheiN »  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #234 - 02/10/09 at 12:43:27
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Here is the definitive analysis and practical play in the 8.Nh3 variation. From a book I published in 1999, 

"Theory pretty much ends with the move sequence 5.exd5 Nd4 6.c3 b5 7.Bf1 Nxd5 8.Nh3 although the author and GM Alburt analyzed this variation in detail in EMPIRE CHESS, Winter 1988 p.6. We also recognize the contributions of ICM van der Tak, NM Alon Bochman, FM Craig Mar and the pretty tactical shot pointed out by Pete Tamburro (8...Bg4 9.Qxg4?? (Bb5ch!) Nc2ch 9.Kd1?? Nce3ch! -+), and minor computer-assessed analysis of 8.Nh3 Bxh3 by NM Eric Schiller."

"GM's Alburt's concept, first recognized in the game Alburt-Gulko, USSR Student Cham., Dubna, 1970 is a profound idea that places the onus on Black to equalize. The first point is that White prepares to exhange off a pair of Knights after say Ne6/Nef4. This is obviously not possible in the variation 8.Ne4 Ne6 9.Bxb5ch Bd7 10.Qa4 Nef4 when Black has compensation. We now follow Alburt-Gulko: 8...Ne6 9.Bxb5ch Bd7 10.Bxd7ch; we prefer 10.Qa4 see below: 10...Qd7 11.O-O Be7 12.Qe2 Bf6?! 13.d3 (d4 +/=) O-O 14,Ba3 Rfe8. Black has a variety of alternatives to 8...Ne6 e.g. 8...Nc6 9.Bxb5 +/- or 8...Bg4 9.Bxb5ch Nxb5 10.Qxg4 or 8...Nf5 which leaves the Knight on a peculiar square and, of course, 9.Bxb5ch wins a pawn. This narrows the choices to 8.Nh3 Bxh3!? and 8...Ne6.  If 8...Bxh3 9.cxd4 (gxh3 Qh4! with comp: ICM van der Tak) 9...Bd7 (To defend b5). If now 10.dxe5 +/= GM Alburt. Black only has partial compensation for the pawn, but, NM Eric Schiller maintains that Black is okay after 10...Qh4. This is difficult to accept after 10.Nc3! White hits d5 and bv5; if 11...Nxc3 12.dxc3 Qe4ch 13.Qe2 +/-. and on 11...c6 12.Nxd5 cxd5 13.Be2 Qg5 14.O-O Qxe5? 15.Re1 looks pretty good for White. Other tries like 10...Nb4 or Be7 don't promise Black very much either.

"Thus the stem game, Alburt-Gulko appears to have revealed the main line very early. The key continuation for White appears to be 8.Nh3 Ne6 9.Bxb5ch Bd7 10.Qa4!. White either forces Black to accept an inferior middlegame or an inferior endgame: 10...Nb6 11.Bd7ch Nxd7 12.d4 exd4 13.cxd4 Be7 14.Nc3 O-O 15.d5 +/=. 

"Black avoids an endgame but is not out of the woods yet; with best play, White should win this. There are a host of similar endings Black can achieve a pawn down, with no real compensation for the pawn. Obviously, this is unacceptable to the majority of chess players.

Black can also try 8...Ne6 9.Bxb5ch Bd7 10.Qa4 Nc5 11.Bxd7ch Nxd7 12.O-O Be7 13.d4 +/= Black is shy of equality. The decision to enter an endgame is only marginally better: 8...Ne6 9.Bxb5ch Bd7 10.Qa4 Nc5 11.Bxd7ch Qxd7 12.Qxd7ch Kxd7 13.d4! (Ke2 e4 14.Na3 Nd3 15.Nc2 Nd5f4ch 16.Nxf4 Nxf4ch 17.Ke3 Nd3: and NM Bochman wonders if White can dig out) 13...exd4 14.cxd4 (O-O dxc3 =) 15.Nc3! Nxd4 (Nb4 16.d5 +/- or Nxc3 16.bxc3 +/- Evaluations by GM Alburt) 16.Nxd5 Nc2ch 17.Kd1 Nxa1 18.Bd2! +/= (GM Alburt)

"One final try is 10.Qa4 Bc5 but 11.d3 f5 +/= (GM Alburt)" There doesn't appear to be any simple pathway to equality for Black here.sloughter wrote on 02/08/09 at 21:10:54:
In order to keep the analyzed lines in one place, here is a way to avoid the complicatons of 8.Ne4 Ne6 i.e. 8.Nh3!? Bxh3 (Ne6 9.Bxb5ch Bd7 10.Qa4 & White is better than the 8.Ne4 line because he can oppose Knights when one of them gets to f4) 9.cxd4! Bd7 10.dxe5 +/= (I'll have to check my analysis here; Black may have a draw by repetition in one of the subvariations). So far, not one menber of this post has tried to engage in an analytical battle over even one variation. Since many are controversial e.g. my latest attempt at an advantage against 8.Ne4 Ne6!sloughter wrote on 02/01/09 at 20:00:15:
In order for the post to have any impact on the development of theory, it is necessary to sort the wheat from the chaff. Here is the analysis posted to date, as well as, original analysis not quoted to date. It is up to the members of the post, if they are so inclined, to accept, modify, or ignore this material in the hope of providing the basis for additional theory and practical play. 

Wilkes-Barre/Traxler

    4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7ch Ke7 6.Bd5 Rf8 (or d6 or Qe8) 7.Bxc6 dxc6 (or bxc6) 8.Nf3 Kf7 (Nxe4 9.Qe2 +/-) 9.d3 +/-

Fried Liver from Pincus

    4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.d4 Bb4ch 7.c3 Be7 8.Nxf7 Kxf7 9.Qf3ch Ke6 10.O-O!

A) 10...Na5 11.Bd3 Bf6 12.Re1 Nc6 13.Be4 g5?! 14.c4 Nxd4 15.cxd5ch Kf7 16.Qd3 Kg7 17.Nc3 Bd7 18.Be3 Rc8 19.Rad1 a6 20.Rd2+/-

B) 10...b5 11.Bxb5 Bb7 12.Bxc6 Bxc6 13.c4 Rf8 (Nb4 14.d5ch Nxd5 15.Rd1 +-) 14.cxd5ch Bxd5 15.Qe2 +-

C) 10...g6 11.Qe4 Rf8 12.f4 Rb8 13.Bb3 a5 14.fxe5 Rxf1ch 15.Kxf1 a4 16.Qg4ch Kf7 17.Qf3ch Kg7 18.Bxd5 +-

Berliner Variation (Ulvestad move order)

4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 b5 6.Bf1 h6 7.Nxf7 Kxf7 8.dxc6 Bc5 9.Be2 +/=
                                                           8.dxc6 Qd5 9.Qf3 +/=

5.exd5 b5 6.Bf1 Nd4 7.c3 Nxd5 8.Ne4 Ne6 (Tentative) 9.d4 exd4 10.Bxb5ch Bd7 11.Bxd7ch Qxd7 12.O-O dxc3 13.Nbxc3 Nxc3 14.bxc3 Qxd1 15.Rxd1 f5 16.Ng5 Nxg5 17.Bxg5 Bd6 18.Rd5 O-O 19.Rad1+/=

Berliner Variation:

4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nd4 6.c3 b5 7.Bf1 Nxd5 8.Ne4 Qh4 9.Ng3 Bg4 10.f3 e4 11.cxd4 Bd6 12.Qe2 Be6 (12...O-O 13.fxg4 Bxg3ch 14.Kd1 +-; 12...Bxg3ch 13.hxg3 Qxh1 14.Qxb5ch Bd7 15.Qxd5 +/-) 13.Nc3 (13.Qf2+/-) 13...Nxc3 14.dxc3 Bxg3ch 15.hxg3 Qxh1 16.Qxb5ch Kf8 17.fxe4 +-

The 5...Na5 material will be provided in a separate postMarkovich wrote on 02/01/09 at 17:25:08:
TN wrote on 02/01/09 at 08:48:11:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=dx-J71v3JkU

The video highlights one of several holes in your childish attempt at refutation.


May I suggest that we all remain civil?  Even chilldish, even obnoxious attempts are deserving of respect.  We all love chess.



  
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ArKheiN
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #233 - 02/09/09 at 19:11:11
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Indeed Uruk the c3 pawn will fall and Black has an equal but dull game. But Fritz8 would not have been ouplayed in that line Cheesy
  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #232 - 02/09/09 at 18:27:48
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Interesting, still after 16...Qc7 17.0-0 h6 18.Nf3 Nd5 19.Bb2 Bf6,
the pawn will disappear.

I also like the ...Ng4 idea.

Overall 8.Qf3 does not seem dangerous.
  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #231 - 02/09/09 at 18:06:00
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Yes Uruk but the point is 13.Qe2! anyway, and if you take that pawn on c2 White play 14.d4! where after 14..exd4 15.Qxc2 dxc3 16.bxc3 White has not big problems now, their position is quite safe and White has still a pawn. Not very strong but still alive and can be protected. I didn't want to play that as Black even if that may still be playable.

Against 11.Qf3 there is 11..0-0 12.Nc3 Ng4!? with an attack.
  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #230 - 02/09/09 at 18:01:21
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ArKheiN wrote on 02/09/09 at 17:38:23:
@Uruk, 11..0-0 was indeed one of my candidate move, but what would you have played against 12.Nc3? I want to see if we got the sames ideas.


With the Queen on a6, 12...Bf5 is a problem.
d3 would shut her way back.

Overall, I can't see any advantages of 11.Qa6 over Macieja's 11.Qf3.
Only disadvantages.
  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #229 - 02/09/09 at 18:00:04
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Please stop Sad
  
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drkodos
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #228 - 02/09/09 at 17:58:51
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drkodos wrote on 02/09/09 at 17:58:12:
drkodos wrote on 02/09/09 at 17:57:13:
drkodos wrote on 02/09/09 at 17:56:28:
drkodos wrote on 02/09/09 at 17:55:35:
drkodos wrote on 02/09/09 at 17:55:02:
drkodos wrote on 02/09/09 at 17:53:42:
drkodos wrote on 02/09/09 at 17:52:49:
I'll take it to Cuba if I have to.


Place bets who gets banned first!!  Me or Sloughter.

I'm willing to lose!  In public.

Or pubic!




I bet I do.

Life tends to be somewhat ironic and cruel in these cases.



But that's ok!   Life befor CPub, life after!  The circle (jerk) of life! 

All here in one flame-out thread!

For all you train wreck gawkers.


But first, some more ad-hominem attacks!

Stay tuned!



Goctha!


I won't go there!



The Onion is getting bigger.



Life is like an onion.

You peel away all the layers and stand there with nothing, leaning over the sink, crying.



So long, thanks for all the fish, see you in the funny papers!



Compelling proof that I am indeed my favorite author.
  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #227 - 02/09/09 at 17:58:12
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drkodos wrote on 02/09/09 at 17:57:13:
drkodos wrote on 02/09/09 at 17:56:28:
drkodos wrote on 02/09/09 at 17:55:35:
drkodos wrote on 02/09/09 at 17:55:02:
drkodos wrote on 02/09/09 at 17:53:42:
drkodos wrote on 02/09/09 at 17:52:49:
I'll take it to Cuba if I have to.


Place bets who gets banned first!!  Me or Sloughter.

I'm willing to lose!  In public.

Or pubic!




I bet I do.

Life tends to be somewhat ironic and cruel in these cases.



But that's ok!   Life befor CPub, life after!  The circle (jerk) of life! 

All here in one flame-out thread!

For all you train wreck gawkers.


But first, some more ad-hominem attacks!

Stay tuned!



Goctha!


I won't go there!



The Onion is getting bigger.



Life is like an onion.

You peel away all the layers and stand there with nothing, leaning over the sink, crying.



So long, thanks for all the fish, see you in the funny papers!

  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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drkodos
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #226 - 02/09/09 at 17:57:13
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drkodos wrote on 02/09/09 at 17:56:28:
drkodos wrote on 02/09/09 at 17:55:35:
drkodos wrote on 02/09/09 at 17:55:02:
drkodos wrote on 02/09/09 at 17:53:42:
drkodos wrote on 02/09/09 at 17:52:49:
I'll take it to Cuba if I have to.


Place bets who gets banned first!!  Me or Sloughter.

I'm willing to lose!  In public.

Or pubic!




I bet I do.

Life tends to be somewhat ironic and cruel in these cases.



But that's ok!   Life befor CPub, life after!  The circle (jerk) of life! 

All here in one flame-out thread!

For all you train wreck gawkers.


But first, some more ad-hominem attacks!

Stay tuned!



Goctha!


I won't go there!



The Onion is getting bigger.



Life is like an onion.

You peel away all the layers and stand there with nothing, leaning over the sink, crying.
  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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drkodos
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #225 - 02/09/09 at 17:56:28
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drkodos wrote on 02/09/09 at 17:55:35:
drkodos wrote on 02/09/09 at 17:55:02:
drkodos wrote on 02/09/09 at 17:53:42:
drkodos wrote on 02/09/09 at 17:52:49:
I'll take it to Cuba if I have to.


Place bets who gets banned first!!  Me or Sloughter.

I'm willing to lose!  In public.

Or pubic!




I bet I do.

Life tends to be somewhat ironic and cruel in these cases.



But that's ok!   Life befor CPub, life after!  The circle (jerk) of life! 

All here in one flame-out thread!

For all you train wreck gawkers.


But first, some more ad-hominem attacks!

Stay tuned!



Goctha!


I won't go there!



The Onion is getting bigger.
  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
Back to top
 
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drkodos
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #224 - 02/09/09 at 17:55:35
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drkodos wrote on 02/09/09 at 17:55:02:
drkodos wrote on 02/09/09 at 17:53:42:
drkodos wrote on 02/09/09 at 17:52:49:
I'll take it to Cuba if I have to.


Place bets who gets banned first!!  Me or Sloughter.

I'm willing to lose!  In public.

Or pubic!




I bet I do.

Life tends to be somewhat ironic and cruel in these cases.



But that's ok!   Life befor CPub, life after!  The circle (jerk) of life! 

All here in one flame-out thread!

For all you train wreck gawkers.


But first, some more ad-hominem attacks!

Stay tuned!



Goctha!


I won't go there!
  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
Back to top
 
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drkodos
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #223 - 02/09/09 at 17:55:02
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drkodos wrote on 02/09/09 at 17:53:42:
drkodos wrote on 02/09/09 at 17:52:49:
I'll take it to Cuba if I have to.


Place bets who gets banned first!!  Me or Sloughter.

I'm willing to lose!  In public.

Or pubic!




I bet I do.

Life tends to be somewhat ironic and cruel in these cases.



But that's ok!   Life befor CPub, life after!  The circle (jerk) of life! 

All here in one flame-out thread!

For all you train wreck gawkers.


But first, some more ad-hominem attacks!

Stay tuned!
  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
drkodos
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Posts: 778
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #222 - 02/09/09 at 17:53:42
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drkodos wrote on 02/09/09 at 17:52:49:
I'll take it to Cuba if I have to.


Place bets who gets banned first!!  Me or Sloughter.

I'm willing to lose!  In public.

Or pubic!




I bet I do.

Life tends to be somewhat ironic and cruel in these cases.
  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
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