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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6? (Read 128317 times)
micawber
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #11 - 01/02/09 at 09:02:17
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Just had a quick look. Havent found Berliner's analysis yet.
But I was right about Walter Muir:

Muir-Svensson correspondence game 1971/1973 continued:
12.Qe2, 0-0 13.fxg4, Bxg3+ 14.Kd1,Nf6

So much for 12.Qe2 being a novelty!
  
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Markovich
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #10 - 01/02/09 at 01:13:02
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In any case, the soundness of the Two Knights hardly depends on the Fritz Variation.
  

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micawber
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #9 - 01/01/09 at 23:49:07
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(1) I agree with MNB that 8....Ne6! is correct. Actually NMB is too modest. On the forumn - in a previous thread - he gave variations up till move 19, showing Black can reach approximate equality.
(2) 12.Qe2 is by no means a new move. If my memory is correct, this move was invented and played by the corr. player Walter Muir.
The variation was also discussed in Correspondence Chess Mail.
I think that Berliner has reacted, and proposed some variations, but I will have to look that up.
(3) I can agree that 12.Qe2 poses severe difficulties for Black But I dont agree with the variations presented above.
For instance after 12.Qe2,0-0 13.Qf2,exf 14.gxf,Bh5 I think Black has sufficient compensation (If white wants to refute this line he must risk 13.fxg4.)
(4) There is an even nastier problem for Black in the Fritz, also discussed on this Forum. Topnotch made a good case that
8.cxd4,Qxg5 9.Bxb5+,Kd8 10.0-0!, Rb8 11.Bc6!,exd4 12.d3,Nf4 13.Na3 (Pirrot-Daeubler, Bad Worrishofen, 2008) leaves white with an advantage.
(5) The question who is the strongest Correspondence World Champion is as meaningfull as the question who is the strongest World Champion of all time.
(6) That being said Hans Berliner certainly is one of the great correspondence champions. At least we can say that he had an original style to which his variation in the Fritz - correct or not- testistifies. If you replay his games, you will see his expert handling of endgames.
  
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MNb
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #8 - 01/01/09 at 22:25:15
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HgMan wrote on 01/01/09 at 22:03:57:
A book, apparently.   Roll Eyes

Am I the only one getting riddled with messages?  Maybe Sloughter and Zukertort could open their own section on Chesspub...


Do you have a suspicious mind. I hadn't thought that far yet. Still you might be right. Sloughter, say it's not true. One Zukertort is enough.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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HgMan
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #7 - 01/01/09 at 22:03:57
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HgMan wrote on 12/30/08 at 18:28:23:
You're in the wrong section.  Please post under 1.e4 e5.

And what makes Hans Berliner the strongest cc world champion?  His book is absolute lunacy.

HITECH was a very impressive piece of machinery, but it wasn't that strong by today's standards.

Bibs was bang on re. writing style, though.  What are you selling?


A book, apparently.   Roll Eyes

Am I the only one getting riddled with messages?  Maybe Sloughter and Zukertort could open their own section on Chesspub...
  

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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #6 - 01/01/09 at 20:11:22
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sloughter wrote on 12/30/08 at 10:51:13:
Is the Two Knights' Defense, Ng5 variation, the first opening that is winning for White?

Let's start with the Berliner Variation (Gambit) 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nd4 6.c3 b5 7.Bf1 Nxd5 8.Ne4 Qh4 9.Ng3 Bg4 10.f3 e4 11.cxd4 Bd6 12.Qe2 Be6? (12...O-O 13.Qf2 +-

What's wrong with the obvious 13...exf3 here? White may be a piece up but Black certainly has an enormous lead in development, and I wouldn't fancy having White in an OTB game.
  
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MNb
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #5 - 01/01/09 at 18:07:05
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sloughter wrote on 12/30/08 at 15:06:16:
Dr. Hans Berliner, the strongest Correspondence World Champion who ever lived.


This is nonsense. In the first place I think higher of Estrin's play and in the second place ICCF has produced some excellent WCh's since Berliner: Baumbach, a few Russians whose name I can't remember and some Dutchies.

Anyhow, according to my analysis and practice 8...Ne6 9.Bxb5+ Bd7 offers enough compensation to maintain equality. After 10.Bxd7 Qxd7 White is slightly behind in development and suffers from a vulnerable d-pawn. After both 10.Qa4+ and 10.Qe2 Black gets excellent play with ...Ndf4!
According to most GM's Black also gets sufficiently play after 5...Na5, but I will leave it to others to defend this variation.
Btw 5...b5 and 6...Nd4 is considered more precise since many years. This makes me suspect that you don't have done enough book research. My well meant advise is to book up before making daring claims. Emms has excellent stuff on 5...Na5. For the Fritz-Ulvestadt you will probably have to turn to older soucres. In fact I think Estrin's old work on the Two Knights Game still the best on 8...Ne6. It inspired me to find Black's most precise play in the only line that is thought to end with +=, ie 8...Ne6 9.Bxb5+ Bd7 10.Bxd7+ Qxd7.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #4 - 12/30/08 at 18:44:55
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Subsequent editions of BCO may not be forthcoming, since the last one was about 20 years ago ...
  
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HgMan
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #3 - 12/30/08 at 18:28:23
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You're in the wrong section.  Please post under 1.e4 e5.

And what makes Hans Berliner the strongest cc world champion?  His book is absolute lunacy.

HITECH was a very impressive piece of machinery, but it wasn't that strong by today's standards.

Bibs was bang on re. writing style, though.  What are you selling?
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #2 - 12/30/08 at 15:06:16
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My innovation in the Berliner Variation (Gambit) replaces an entire page of BCO 2. The move 12...Be6 has been recommended by Dr. Hans Berliner, the strongest Correspondence World Champion who ever lived, analyzed by HITECH, the strongest computer at the time, and Garry Kasparov the strongest over-the-board World Champion.

12...Be6 is so bad that IM Jeremy Silman couldn't believe that it was book. After 12...O-O, 13.Qf2 is +- and after 12...Be6, 13.Nc3 or 13.Qf2 +-.

The Berliner Variation was viewed by Dr. Berliner and endorsed by Garry Kasparov as the definitive refutation of 4.Ng5. Now it turns out that Dr. Berliner and Garry Kasparov both missed two winning plans for White after 12...Be6. Both 13.Qf2 and 13.Nc3 refute the Berliner Gambit.

The Berliner Gambit leads to the fastest win by White of any major opening in chess, the direct opposite of What Berliner and Kasparov claim.The entire variation will be condensed  in subsequent editions of BCO, MCO and ECO as 12.Qe2 +/-. Once this analysis is well known, the Berliner Variation will never again be played in serious competition.

Is this what you mean by spam?
  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #1 - 12/30/08 at 11:41:47
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Commendable enthusiasm, but spamming all sections until you get attention may not make you too many friends. Sure a reply will come if you wait in the e4 e5 section.

Love the writing style btw - very Raymond Keene. Same English teacher?

festive wishes,

Bibs
  
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refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
12/30/08 at 10:51:13
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Is the Two Knights' Defense, Ng5 variation, the first opening that is winning for White?

Let's start with the Berliner Variation (Gambit) 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nd4 6.c3 b5 7.Bf1 Nxd5 8.Ne4 Qh4 9.Ng3 Bg4 10.f3 e4 11.cxd4 Bd6 12.Qe2 Be6? (12...O-O 13.Qf2 +- or 12...Bxg3ch 13.hxg3 Qxh1 14.Qxb5ch +/-)

13.Qf2 +- or 13.Nc3!! +-

Both of these continuations were missed by World Champions Berliner and Kasparov.

Can anyone find a way for Black to equalize in the Fritz?

Richard -(my home email address is slmrea@aol.com)

  
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