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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6? (Read 128420 times)
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #26 - 01/05/09 at 23:25:12
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sloughter wrote on 01/03/09 at 15:04:09:
GMTonyKosten wrote on 01/01/09 at 20:11:22:
sloughter wrote on 12/30/08 at 10:51:13:
Is the Two Knights' Defense, Ng5 variation, the first opening that is winning for White?

Let's start with the Berliner Variation (Gambit) 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nd4 6.c3 b5 7.Bf1 Nxd5 8.Ne4 Qh4 9.Ng3 Bg4 10.f3 e4 11.cxd4 Bd6 12.Qe2 Be6? (12...O-O 13.Qf2 +-

What's wrong with the obvious 13...exf3 here? White may be a piece up but Black certainly has an enormous lead in development, and I wouldn't fancy having White in an OTB game.
Black has an enormous lead in development.

Not the way I define development. There is a certain internal harmony in chess. To the average chess player, there is no difference in terms of time between the move sequence. Qe2/Qf3 and Qe2/Qe3. The way I define time, Qe2/Qf3 only gains one tempo because the Queen has access to f3 in one move, but took two moves to get there. By contrast, the White Queen takes two moves to get to e3 and thus the maneuver Qe2/Qe3 gains a tempo compared to Qe2/Qf3, because White cannot access the e3 square with his Queen in less than two moves. What this means as a practical matter is that, usually, except in certain endgames, gaining time without effort is usually good, so, if one has a choice in two moves of playing Qe2/Qe3 or Qe2/Qf3, all other factors being equal, Qe2/Qe3 is the superior choice because it gains a tempo.

As far as the position in question, here is how I define time. Black has freed both Bishops, that is two tempos (If you think this is trivial and obvious, consider that Nimzovich regards the following move sequence as giving Black a lead in development: 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 Nf6, whereas I look at freeing the Bishops as developing moves. Thus, unlike Nimzovich, I maintain that White still has his first move advantage.), he has played Bg4 (one tempo) Qh4 (one tempo) O-O (one tempo). (Bd6 (one tempo) The Knight has gained two tempos for a grand total of 8 tempos.

White's Knight can access the g3 square in two moves, so the path in this case doesn't count;  it only matters how many tempos it takes for the Knight to get to the g3 square from g1. White has made two developing moves with his Queen and freed the King Bishop for a grand total of five moves of development, but after exf3, it is White on move.

Without analyzing anything ( I don't have a chess board here), my immediate reaction is to reject gxf3 because it loses a tempo to Bh5 i.e. Black cannot access h5 in less than two moves. The way I look at the position, I am going to try to give back the piece advantageously with something like 13.Bxb5 with a four to two pawn majority on the Queenside i.e. if this position ever goes into an endgame, White should have an advantage because of his Queenside pawn majority. Unless White is mated here or loses a lot more than a piece, my immediate reaction is to play 13.Bxb5; this gains a tempo and chops up the Queenside for a big plus in the endgame.

Don't get me wrong---If Muir is right, it is because Black has to waste too much time to regain the material. It's just that as I define time 13.fxg4 is a pawn move that doesn't gain or lose time i.e. he swaps a pawn move for a developed piece, but 13.Qf2 gains a tempo. My idea is not to worry about the material here, but force Black to justify the attack by gaining back enough material to justify his Queenside situation. If he just regains the piece but loses the initiative, then the White Queenside pawn majority should be decisive. In the subject position, when I get home, I will just look for ways to give back the piece advantageously.

By the way, I am well aware that 12.Qe2 is not a Novelty. I never said it was. All I said is that Berliner, a World Champion and Kasparov, a World Champion both give 12...Be6 as best and favorable to Black whereas I am the first person to say it leads to the fastest win by White of any major opening in chess. (By the way, When IM Jeremy Silman looked at the position after 12...Be6, Book, he couldn't believe it was book because it was so bad!)

Obviously, the way I define time, 12...O-O is vastly superior to 12...Be6; I was just under the impression that if two World Champions thought that if 12...Be6 was best, it was best.


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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #25 - 01/05/09 at 22:49:17
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sloughter wrote on 01/05/09 at 20:47:26:
MNb wrote on 01/05/09 at 12:34:27:
sloughter wrote on 01/05/09 at 12:00:48:
In the move sequence 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nd4 6.c3 b5 7.Bf1 Nxd5 8.Ne4 Ne6? (Contrary to other posts about the excellent analysis by a member out to move 19), White is simply better here i.e. 9.Bxb5ch Bd7 10.Qa4 is a no brainer; even 10.Qe2 is better than 10.Bxd7ch.

Are we in agreement that 8...Ne6 is a win for White?




Not as long as you fail to consult the right sources and don't read the posts of that member.

MNb wrote on 01/01/09 at 18:07:05:
After both 10.Qa4+ and 10.Qe2 Black gets excellent play with ...Ndf4!

With this easy save the ball is back in your court again. As a warning I tell you that I have done some work on both 10.Qa4+ and 10.Qe2. Smiley


10.Qa4 Ndf4 11.d4 exd4 12.g3 Nd3ch 13.Ke2 Nxc1ch 14.Rxc1 dxc3 15.Nxc3 & You will note that I have the better pawn structure, I can double with Rc2, and, if you now play Nc5, this is met with 16.Bxd7ch Nxd7 17.Kf1 +- Now you've lost the option of 16.Bxd7ch Qxd7? 17.Qxd7ch Kxd7 18.Kf3, because White has the superior pawn structure,  threatens to double on a central file, and has a lead in development. +-

Let's count the Two Knights' Tango: 1...Nc6, 2...Nf6, 3...Nd4, 4...Nxd5 5...Ne6, 6...Ndf4, 7...Nd3, 8...Nxc1, 9...Nc5, 10...Nxd7.

The way I count development, you have made ten moves with your Knights in this opening and made one useful move, Nxd7 with your Knights. With the other 9 moves, you have won the minor exchange.

The way to meet any gambit is to give back just enough material to squelch the initiative and emerge with a positional plus and a lead in development as we see here.

8...Ne6 +- 12...Be6 +- So far no one seems interested in contesting the fact that I pruned a major branch with 12...Be6 13.Nc3 on my way to my desired goal, 3...Nf6 4.Ng5+-

Anyone care to try to equalize after either 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7ch Ke7 6.Bd5 Rf8 (Qe8 or d6, Bxc6) 7.Bxc6! dxc6 8.Nf3!! N (Qe2 Ng4 9.f3 Bf2ch 10.Kf1 Bb6 =)e.g. 8...Nxe4 9.Qe2 +- or 8...Kf7 9.d3 +-?

Or Black can try 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.d4 Bb4ch 7.c3 Be7 8.Nxf7 Kxf7 9.Qf3ch Ke6 10.O-O +- This is an idea of Pincus. If you think that Black can survive, just plug it into any 2700+ computer.




1. You make too many moves for your opponent and seem to refuse to consider one may not play the moves you choose for them.

2. You are all over the map with your Tango! rant.  I'm not sure how that fits into any concrete analysis being offered.

3. I sense that arguing any further is like living with a broken pencil:  pointless.

Good luck in your pursuits!   Smiley

  

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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #24 - 01/05/09 at 22:32:01
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@Sloughter,

First let me tell you that I think you would do well to moderate your language a bit. Your not writing for newbies, and your big words dont impress.
Now to your variation:
Although I am certainly interested in what MNb has to say, just two remarks:

10.Qa4, Ndf4 (Besides this black has another proven option 10...f5)
11.d4........
11....., Nxg2+!  

(11...exd4 is weaker, although black is by no means lost after
for instance 12.g3,Nd3 13.Ke2,Nxc1 14.Rxc1,f5 15.Ned2,Rb8! and it would surprise me very much if you could win this endgame from me)

12.Kf1, Ng4 =
This is a well known variation:
Kopylov- Ravinsky, USSR ch 1949 (0,5-0,5)
Laglan - Samarian, ICCF corr., 1962 (0-1)


Sloughter, you might take MNb's advice and study some sources and games, before making rather wild claims.

  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #23 - 01/05/09 at 22:25:44
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Is it forbidden to do good moves with black??
14..dxc3??
After 14...Rb8 black is very happy for instance. Also 13..Ne5 is perfectly playable, another tango  Smiley
Talkin bout white's tango: Bf1-c4-f1-b5, Ng1-f3-g5-e4
After 13 moves white has Ra1-Nb1-Bc1 undeveloped, king in the centre.

You may have your desired goal but your not objective by any standards.
So far we are not convinced in any way.
It looks like "Anonymous" is back... Cry
  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #22 - 01/05/09 at 20:47:26
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MNb wrote on 01/05/09 at 12:34:27:
sloughter wrote on 01/05/09 at 12:00:48:
In the move sequence 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nd4 6.c3 b5 7.Bf1 Nxd5 8.Ne4 Ne6? (Contrary to other posts about the excellent analysis by a member out to move 19), White is simply better here i.e. 9.Bxb5ch Bd7 10.Qa4 is a no brainer; even 10.Qe2 is better than 10.Bxd7ch.

Are we in agreement that 8...Ne6 is a win for White?




Not as long as you fail to consult the right sources and don't read the posts of that member.

MNb wrote on 01/01/09 at 18:07:05:
After both 10.Qa4+ and 10.Qe2 Black gets excellent play with ...Ndf4!

With this easy save the ball is back in your court again. As a warning I tell you that I have done some work on both 10.Qa4+ and 10.Qe2. Smiley


10.Qa4 Ndf4 11.d4 exd4 12.g3 Nd3ch 13.Ke2 Nxc1ch 14.Rxc1 dxc3 15.Nxc3 & You will note that I have the better pawn structure, I can double with Rc2, and, if you now play Nc5, this is met with 16.Bxd7ch Nxd7 17.Kf1 +- Now you've lost the option of 16.Bxd7ch Qxd7? 17.Qxd7ch Kxd7 18.Kf3, because White has the superior pawn structure,  threatens to double on a central file, and has a lead in development. +-

Let's count the Two Knights' Tango: 1...Nc6, 2...Nf6, 3...Nd4, 4...Nxd5 5...Ne6, 6...Ndf4, 7...Nd3, 8...Nxc1, 9...Nc5, 10...Nxd7.

The way I count development, you have made ten moves with your Knights in this opening and made one useful move, Nxd7 with your Knights. With the other 9 moves, you have won the minor exchange.

The way to meet any gambit is to give back just enough material to squelch the initiative and emerge with a positional plus and a lead in development as we see here.

8...Ne6 +- 12...Be6 +- So far no one seems interested in contesting the fact that I pruned a major branch with 12...Be6 13.Nc3 on my way to my desired goal, 3...Nf6 4.Ng5+-

Anyone care to try to equalize after either 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7ch Ke7 6.Bd5 Rf8 (Qe8 or d6, Bxc6) 7.Bxc6! dxc6 8.Nf3!! N (Qe2 Ng4 9.f3 Bf2ch 10.Kf1 Bb6 =)e.g. 8...Nxe4 9.Qe2 +- or 8...Kf7 9.d3 +-?

Or Black can try 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.d4 Bb4ch 7.c3 Be7 8.Nxf7 Kxf7 9.Qf3ch Ke6 10.O-O +- This is an idea of Pincus. If you think that Black can survive, just plug it into any 2700+ computer.


  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #21 - 01/05/09 at 14:52:31
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If I am white, my next move after 10. ...Ndf4 is 11.0-0.

But then 11. ....Nd3 and Black is equal or better.


After 11. d4, Black equalizes with 11.  ...f5 or ...ed

sloughter wrote on 01/05/09 at 14:04:27:
There is not the slightest doubt in my mind that 8...Ne6 is +-.



Never let facts get in the way of a strong opinion.   Wink

11. d4   ed
12. Bxf4 Nxf4
13, cd   Nd3+
14 Kd2 Nxb2  =

Edit to add:  Checked and both Rybka and Hiarcs have 10. ...Ndf4 as their "book" moves in this position.
  

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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #20 - 01/05/09 at 14:04:27
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MNb wrote on 01/05/09 at 12:34:27:
sloughter wrote on 01/05/09 at 12:00:48:
In the move sequence 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nd4 6.c3 b5 7.Bf1 Nxd5 8.Ne4 Ne6? (Contrary to other posts about the excellent analysis by a member out to move 19), White is simply better here i.e. 9.Bxb5ch Bd7 10.Qa4 is a no brainer; even 10.Qe2 is better than 10.Bxd7ch.

Are we in agreement that 8...Ne6 is a win for White?


Not as long as you fail to consult the right sources and don't read the posts of that member.

MNb wrote on 01/01/09 at 18:07:05:
After both 10.Qa4+ and 10.Qe2 Black gets excellent play with ...Ndf4!

With this easy save the ball is back in your court again. As a warning I tell you that I have done some work on both 10.Qa4+ and 10.Qe2. Smiley


Again, I am doing this in my head, which is tough as a 1600 player, but my immediate reaction to 10...Ndf4 is to ignore the hit on the g-pawn, give it back for positional plusses and just play 11.d4. If you insist on playing 11...Nxg2ch 12.Ke2 Nf4ch 13.Kf3 Ng6 14.Bxd7ch Qxd7 16.Qxd7ch Kxd7  17.Rg1 (Now what? I have a  developmental edge after 17.Rg1. Don't you think that the Rook on the open file is worth something?). After such standard move as Be3/Nd2/Rad1 White completes his development; you will note that Black has to either shield, protect, or advance his g-pawn to avoid an eventual Rxg7. White should pick up a second tempo here.

You will note in the endgame that my King is one tempo closer to the center than the Black King, i.e. White just gives back the extra material that he converted into a lead in development, which ten moves down the road will be converted back into a material plus. You will note that White is going to be the only side with a center pawn should Black play exd4. When I get home, I'll check the variations on my computer. There is not the slightest doubt in my mind that 8...Ne6 is +-.
  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #19 - 01/05/09 at 12:34:27
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sloughter wrote on 01/05/09 at 12:00:48:
In the move sequence 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nd4 6.c3 b5 7.Bf1 Nxd5 8.Ne4 Ne6? (Contrary to other posts about the excellent analysis by a member out to move 19), White is simply better here i.e. 9.Bxb5ch Bd7 10.Qa4 is a no brainer; even 10.Qe2 is better than 10.Bxd7ch.

Are we in agreement that 8...Ne6 is a win for White?


Not as long as you fail to consult the right sources and don't read the posts of that member.

MNb wrote on 01/01/09 at 18:07:05:
After both 10.Qa4+ and 10.Qe2 Black gets excellent play with ...Ndf4!

With this easy save the ball is back in your court again. As a warning I tell you that I have done some work on both 10.Qa4+ and 10.Qe2. Smiley
  

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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #18 - 01/05/09 at 12:21:36
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sloughter wrote on 01/05/09 at 12:00:48:
GMTonyKosten wrote on 01/01/09 at 20:11:22:
sloughter wrote on 12/30/08 at 10:51:13:
Is the Two Knights' Defense, Ng5 variation, the first opening that is winning for White?

Let's start with the Berliner Variation (Gambit) 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nd4 6.c3 b5 7.Bf1 Nxd5 8.Ne4 Qh4 9.Ng3 Bg4 10.f3 e4 11.cxd4 Bd6 12.Qe2 Be6? (12...O-O 13.Qf2 +-

What's wrong with the obvious 13...exf3 here? White may be a piece up but Black certainly has an enormous lead in development, and I wouldn't fancy having White in an OTB game.

Let's start pruning the analytical tree. Do any of you see improvements on 12.Qe2 Be6 13.Nc3 Nxc3 (Nb4 14.Kd1+-) 14.dxc3 Bxg3ch 15.hxg3 Qxh1 16.Qxb5ch Kf8 17.fxe4+- (According to IM Silman, White may try 17.d5 here). Does anyone think that Black can equalize here or improve after 13.Nc3, or are we in agreement that 12...Be6 leads to a forced win for White?

In the move sequence 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nd4 6.c3 b5 7.Bf1 Nxd5 8.Ne4 Ne6? (Contrary to other posts about the excellent analysis by a member out to move 19), White is simply better here i.e. 9.Bxb5ch Bd7 10.Qa4 is a no brainer; even 10.Qe2 is better than 10.Bxd7ch. It is always useful to make developing moves in a sharp position instead of making the non-developing move sequence 10.Bxd7ch?? Qxd7

Black has two dismal choices: 1)Stay in a middlegame a pawn down, or 2)Go into an endgame a pawn down. First: 8.Ne4 Ne6 9.Bxb5ch Bd7
10.Qa4 Nc5 11.Bxd7ch Nxd7 12.d4 +-

Does anyone want to make the case that the Knight walk is good for Black i.e. Nc6/Nd4/Ne6/Nc5/Nxd7 is a good idea for Black? Returning the Knight to a square it has access to on one of its very first legal moves leaving the b8 square i.e. Nc6, Na6 or Nd7, means that Black simply loses four tempos in a sharp position. As I define development, Black just lost four tempos.+-

Lets try an even more exorbitant Knight walk i.e. 8.Ne4 Ne6 9.Bxb5ch Bd7 10.Qa4 Nc5 11.Bxd7ch Qxd7 12.Qxd7ch Kxd7 13.d4 Nd3ch 14.Ke2 Nxc1ch (Can anyone find anything stronger?) 15.Rxc1 & Black has spent six tempos to win the minor exchance.+-

Are we in agreement that 8...Ne6 is a win for White?



No way.
After 8..Ne6 9.Bxb5+ Bd7 10.Qa4 Ndf4! (why Nc5??, 10...Ndf4! was already mentioned by Mnb!) there is no way to an advantage for white.
White scored only 0.5 out of 3 in my database, not that that says anything, but is an indication.
But analysing the position after Ndf4 gives a bad feeling for gaining an advantage with white. Black seems to have no problems at all.

Also the line Tony mentions, after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nd4 6.c3 b5 7.Bf1 Nxd5 8.Ne4 Qh4 9.Ng3 Bg4 10.f3 e4 11.cxd4 Bd6 12.Qe2 0-0 13.Qf2 exf3 14.Bxb5?? the move you propose instead of gxf3 its immediately curtains for white after Rae8+
  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #17 - 01/05/09 at 12:00:48
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 01/01/09 at 20:11:22:
sloughter wrote on 12/30/08 at 10:51:13:
Is the Two Knights' Defense, Ng5 variation, the first opening that is winning for White?

Let's start with the Berliner Variation (Gambit) 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nd4 6.c3 b5 7.Bf1 Nxd5 8.Ne4 Qh4 9.Ng3 Bg4 10.f3 e4 11.cxd4 Bd6 12.Qe2 Be6? (12...O-O 13.Qf2 +-

What's wrong with the obvious 13...exf3 here? White may be a piece up but Black certainly has an enormous lead in development, and I wouldn't fancy having White in an OTB game.

Let's start pruning the analytical tree. Do any of you see improvements on 12.Qe2 Be6 13.Nc3 Nxc3 (Nb4 14.Kd1+-) 14.dxc3 Bxg3ch 15.hxg3 Qxh1 16.Qxb5ch Kf8 17.fxe4+- (According to IM Silman, White may try 17.d5 here). Does anyone think that Black can equalize here or improve after 13.Nc3, or are we in agreement that 12...Be6 leads to a forced win for White?

In the move sequence 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nd4 6.c3 b5 7.Bf1 Nxd5 8.Ne4 Ne6? (Contrary to other posts about the excellent analysis by a member out to move 19), White is simply better here i.e. 9.Bxb5ch Bd7 10.Qa4 is a no brainer; even 10.Qe2 is better than 10.Bxd7ch. It is always useful to make developing moves in a sharp position instead of making the non-developing move sequence 10.Bxd7ch?? Qxd7

Black has two dismal choices: 1)Stay in a middlegame a pawn down, or 2)Go into an endgame a pawn down. First: 8.Ne4 Ne6 9.Bxb5ch Bd7
10.Qa4 Nc5 11.Bxd7ch Nxd7 12.d4 +-

Does anyone want to make the case that the Knight walk is good for Black i.e. Nc6/Nd4/Ne6/Nc5/Nxd7 is a good idea for Black? Returning the Knight to a square it has access to on one of its very first legal moves leaving the b8 square i.e. Nc6, Na6 or Nd7, means that Black simply loses four tempos in a sharp position. As I define development, Black just lost four tempos.+-

Lets try an even more exorbitant Knight walk i.e. 8.Ne4 Ne6 9.Bxb5ch Bd7 10.Qa4 Nc5 11.Bxd7ch Qxd7 12.Qxd7ch Kxd7 13.d4 Nd3ch 14.Ke2 Nxc1ch (Can anyone find anything stronger?) 15.Rxc1 & Black has spent six tempos to win the minor exchance.+-

Are we in agreement that 8...Ne6 is a win for White?

  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #16 - 01/05/09 at 03:55:20
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micawber wrote on 01/01/09 at 23:49:07:
(1) I agree with MNB that 8....Ne6! is correct. Actually NMB is too modest. On the forumn - in a previous thread - he gave variations up till move 19, showing Black can reach approximate equality.
(2) 12.Qe2 is by no means a new move. If my memory is correct, this move was invented and played by the corr. player Walter Muir.
The variation was also discussed in Correspondence Chess Mail.
I think that Berliner has reacted, and proposed some variations, but I will have to look that up.
(3) I can agree that 12.Qe2 poses severe difficulties for Black But I dont agree with the variations presented above.
For instance after 12.Qe2,0-0 13.Qf2,exf 14.gxf,Bh5 I think Black has sufficient compensation (If white wants to refute this line he must risk 13.fxg4.)
(4) There is an even nastier problem for Black in the Fritz, also discussed on this Forum. Topnotch made a good case that
8.cxd4,Qxg5 9.Bxb5+,Kd8 10.0-0!, Rb8 11.Bc6!,exd4 12.d3,Nf4 13.Na3 (Pirrot-Daeubler, Bad Worrishofen, 2008) leaves white with an advantage.
(5) The question who is the strongest Correspondence World Champion is as meaningfull as the question who is the strongest World Champion of all time.
(6) That being said Hans Berliner certainly is one of the great correspondence champions. At least we can say that he had an original style to which his variation in the Fritz - correct or not- testistifies. If you replay his games, you will see his expert handling of endgames.

  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #15 - 01/04/09 at 22:55:55
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sloughter wrote on 12/30/08 at 15:06:16:
My innovation in the Berliner Variation (Gambit) replaces an entire page of BCO 2.


This is, what?  Almost twenty years old, now?  I'm not sure I remember the last time I even consulted it...
  

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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #14 - 01/04/09 at 22:36:04
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sloughter wrote on 01/03/09 at 15:04:09:
, but after exf3, it is White on move.

Without analyzing anything ( I don't have a chess board here), my immediate reaction is to reject gxf3 because it loses a tempo to Bh5 i.e. Black cannot access h5 in less than two moves. The way I look at the position, I am going to try to give back the piece advantageously with something like 13.Bxb5 with a four to two pawn majority on the Queenside i.e. if this position ever goes into an endgame, White should have an advantage because of his Queenside pawn majority. Unless White is mated here or loses a lot more than a piece, my immediate reaction is to play 13.Bxb5; this gains a tempo and chops up the Queenside for a big plus in the endgame.

I'm confused! Do you mean 14 Bxb5 (after 12...0-0 13 Qf2 exf3)?
If so, it loses immediately in any number of ways. Undecided
By the way, the reason I thought Black had a lead in development is because he has developed all his minor pieces and castled, while White hasn't developed his queenside at all, his kingside hardly at all and his king is stuck in the centre! Roll Eyes
  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #13 - 01/04/09 at 20:28:26
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Sloughter:

 After reading (several times) your latest entry and trying to wrap my brain around it, I continue to labor over some points of confusion.  I am hoping you could explain further.  With regard to this statement:

sloughter wrote on 01/03/09 at 15:04:09:
By the way, I am well aware that 12.Qe2 is not a Novelty. I never said it was. All I said is that Berliner, a World Champion and Kasparov, a World Champion both give 12...Be6 as best and favorable to Black whereas I am the first person to say it leads to the fastest win by White of any major opening in chess. (By the way, When IM Jeremy Silman looked at the position after 12...Be6, Book, he couldn't believe it was book because it was so bad!)



I am confused because in a previous post in this thread you made claim of an "innovation":

sloughter wrote on 01/03/09 at 15:04:09:
My innovation in the Berliner Variation (Gambit) replaces an entire page of BCO 2.



Question #1:  What is the innovation?

Also, your thread title tease makes claim that Two Knight defense is refuted.   Intriguing.

Question #2:  What is your bust of 5. ....Na5?


Along tangential lanes, I opine further:  Whenever a partner always makes claim a move is "book" the begging question is always to ask: Which book and by whom?  Wink



Last barb on the wire:  I never realized that Jeremy Silman was the Holy Grail of opening theory.... Smiley


  

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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #12 - 01/03/09 at 15:04:09
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 01/01/09 at 20:11:22:
sloughter wrote on 12/30/08 at 10:51:13:
Is the Two Knights' Defense, Ng5 variation, the first opening that is winning for White?

Let's start with the Berliner Variation (Gambit) 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nd4 6.c3 b5 7.Bf1 Nxd5 8.Ne4 Qh4 9.Ng3 Bg4 10.f3 e4 11.cxd4 Bd6 12.Qe2 Be6? (12...O-O 13.Qf2 +-

What's wrong with the obvious 13...exf3 here? White may be a piece up but Black certainly has an enormous lead in development, and I wouldn't fancy having White in an OTB game.
Black has an enormous lead in development.

Not the way I define development. There is a certain internal harmony in chess. To the average chess player, there is no difference in terms of time between the move sequence. Qe2/Qf3 and Qe2/Qe3. The way I define time, Qe2/Qf3 only gains one tempo because the Queen has access to f3 in one move, but took two moves to get there. By contrast, the White Queen takes two moves to get to e3 and thus the maneuver Qe2/Qe3 gains a tempo compared to Qe2/Qf3, because White cannot access the e3 square with his Queen in less than two moves. What this means as a practical matter is that, usually, except in certain endgames, gaining time without effort is usually good, so, if one has a choice in two moves of playing Qe2/Qe3 or Qe2/Qf3, all other factors being equal, Qe2/Qe3 is the superior choice because it gains a tempo.

As far as the position in question, here is how I define time. Black has freed both Bishops, that is two tempos (If you think this is trivial and obvious, consider that Nimzovich regards the following move sequence as giving Black a lead in development: 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 Nf6, whereas I look at freeing the Bishops as developing moves. Thus, unlike Nimzovich, I maintain that White still has his first move advantage.), he has played Bg4 (one tempo) Qh4 (one tempo) O-O (one tempo). (Bd6 (one tempo) The Knight has gained two tempos for a grand total of 8 tempos.

White's Knight can access the g3 square in two moves, so the path in this case doesn't count;  it only matters how many tempos it takes for the Knight to get to the g3 square from g1. White has made two developing moves with his Queen and freed the King Bishop for a grand total of five moves of development, but after exf3, it is White on move.

Without analyzing anything ( I don't have a chess board here), my immediate reaction is to reject gxf3 because it loses a tempo to Bh5 i.e. Black cannot access h5 in less than two moves. The way I look at the position, I am going to try to give back the piece advantageously with something like 13.Bxb5 with a four to two pawn majority on the Queenside i.e. if this position ever goes into an endgame, White should have an advantage because of his Queenside pawn majority. Unless White is mated here or loses a lot more than a piece, my immediate reaction is to play 13.Bxb5; this gains a tempo and chops up the Queenside for a big plus in the endgame.

Don't get me wrong---If Muir is right, it is because Black has to waste too much time to regain the material. It's just that as I define time 13.fxg4 is a pawn move that doesn't gain or lose time i.e. he swaps a pawn move for a developed piece, but 13.Qf2 gains a tempo. My idea is not to worry about the material here, but force Black to justify the attack by gaining back enough material to justify his Queenside situation. If he just regains the piece but loses the initiative, then the White Queenside pawn majority should be decisive. In the subject position, when I get home, I will just look for ways to give back the piece advantageously.

By the way, I am well aware that 12.Qe2 is not a Novelty. I never said it was. All I said is that Berliner, a World Champion and Kasparov, a World Champion both give 12...Be6 as best and favorable to Black whereas I am the first person to say it leads to the fastest win by White of any major opening in chess. (By the way, When IM Jeremy Silman looked at the position after 12...Be6, Book, he couldn't believe it was book because it was so bad!)

Obviously, the way I define time, 12...O-O is vastly superior to 12...Be6; I was just under the impression that if two World Champions thought that if 12...Be6 was best, it was best.
  
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