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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) some QGA analysis (Read 17061 times)
Markovich
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Re: some QGA analysis
Reply #7 - 02/27/09 at 00:05:48
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I wanted to come back to this thread and consider 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3 e6 5.Bxc4 c5 6.0-0 a6 7.Bb3 b5 8.a4 b5 9.Nbd2 Bb7 10.e4 cxd4 11.e5 Nfd7 12.Nc4 Nc6 13.Bg5 Qc7 14.Rc1 Nc5 15.Ba2 h6 16.Bf4 g5 17.Nd6+ Bxd6 18.exd6 Qb6 19.Bg3 Ne4 20.Nd2.

Here I think Rizzitano has the relative merit of Black's, rejoinders, 20...Nxd2"!" and 20...Nxg3, mixed up.

20...Nxd2 21.Qd2 b3 22.Bb1 f5 and now instead of Rizzitano's 22.Qe2, 22.Rfe1 appears to secure a very good game.

20...Nxg3 21.Nc4 Qc5! 22.fxg3 and now I think 22...0-0! is good for Black.  For instance 23.Qh5 d3+ 24.Kh1 Ne5 25.Nxe5 Qxe5 26.Qxh6 Be4= though the position is complicated.
  

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Markovich
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Re: some QGA analysis
Reply #6 - 02/26/09 at 23:51:08
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Dragan Glas wrote on 01/01/09 at 02:39:50:

The first thought that struck me was, following 21..., Nxg3, "What if White plays 22 d7+ !?"

Just to give a few ideas...

21..., Nxg3; 22 d7+ and then:

1) 22..., Kf8; 23 Nxe6+, fe; 24 Qd6+ followed by 25 fg (with check if Black plays 24..., Ne7?).
2a) 22..., Kd8; 23 Nxc6+, Bxc6; 24 fg, Qxa2; 25 Rxc6, Qd5; 26 Qxd5, ed; 27 Rxf7 and I think it's fair to say that White has the better of it!?
2b) Instead of 24..., Qxa2, if Black plays 24..., Bxd7; 25 Rxf7 and either 25..., Ra7; 26 Qd4 or 25..., Qb6+; 26 Kh1 with 26 Qf3 to follow.
3) 22..., Ke7; when White has either a variation of the 23 Nxc6+ option again or simply 23 fg with 24 Qf3 to follow, if possible - if 23..., Nxd4?; 24 Qxd4 threatens all sorts of mayhem on the f-file with Qf6(+)xf7(+) and Rfd1(+), etc, as 24..., e5 fails to 25 Rxf7+ (assuming Black's queen is still on a5 and White's bishop is still on a2!).

That was what I was thinking - none of this having been checked with a computer, so any errors are mine - as they always are with a rusty human player!  Embarrassed

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas


Sorry to take so very long.  No, I hadn't thought of 21.d7+ but it seems to me that Black stands well after 21...Ke7.   I don't think that White can play 22.fxg3 then because of 22....Qb6.  If 22.Nxc6 Bxc6 23.fxg3 Qb6+ I think Black is at least OK.
  

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MarinFan
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Re: some QGA analysis
Reply #5 - 02/26/09 at 19:43:14
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Very likely has all points covered was mentioned here to some extent.
  
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Antillian
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Re: some QGA analysis
Reply #4 - 02/26/09 at 13:08:14
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Markovich,

Perhaps John Watson is lurking here and read your posts  Grin

in his latest review, he has quite a bit to say about Avrukh vs. Rizzitano as well. Some good stuff to delve into. 

http://www.chesscenter.com/twic/jwat91.html
  

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Re: some QGA analysis
Reply #3 - 01/03/09 at 16:54:19
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I've enjoyed looking at the lines you have both posted here, so thanks for that. I personally would like to play 23...Qb6 as given in Markovich's line 3. 

After 24.Qh5 I quite like 0-0-0 - I suppose this voluntarily concedes any remaining hope of holding onto anything in the centre, but if White takes on f7, which I imagine he would, at least Black can get rid of that d-pawn.  He's then going to have to scarper with his King, though. I won't pretend to be strong enough to offer any further worthwhile analysis (I am a very casual player; to my detriment I very rarely study positions in any depth as I play internet blitz 99% of the time  Embarrassed  with just the occasional CC type game online) but I've enjoyed using the opportunity to examine this particular position as I quite like the QGA and have vowed to one day learn how to play it well. Do either of you play the QGA, incidentally?  
  
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Dragan Glas
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Re: some QGA analysis
Reply #2 - 01/01/09 at 02:39:50
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Greetings,

Markovich
Interesting position - I trust you'll pardon my rusty efforts... 

The first thought that struck me was, following 21..., Nxg3, "What if White plays 22 d7+ !?"

Whatever Black does with the king, the knight has a capture with check - even on e6 - keeping Black on the back-foot. In fact, the bishop on a2 can (re)capture on e6 (since it's "lost" anyway to the possible queen capture). Most importantly, Black loses the option of castling out-of-it - granted, the passed-pawn would be sacrificed but if it kept the king in the line-of-fire in the centre...!?

The other minor option was 23 fxg3 opening the f-file for added pressure, which adds a bit of spice to the afore-mentioned complications arising from the suggestion.

Most likely you've already analysed and dismissed this possibility - so I'll wait to see what your verdict on it was before spending ages posting vast but useless - or vastly useless! - analysis of my own.

Undecided

Just to give a few ideas...

21..., Nxg3; 22 d7+ and then:

1) 22..., Kf8; 23 Nxe6+, fe; 24 Qd6+ followed by 25 fg (with check if Black plays 24..., Ne7?).
2a) 22..., Kd8; 23 Nxc6+, Bxc6; 24 fg, Qxa2; 25 Rxc6, Qd5; 26 Qxd5, ed; 27 Rxf7 and I think it's fair to say that White has the better of it!?
2b) Instead of 24..., Qxa2, if Black plays 24..., Bxd7; 25 Rxf7 and either 25..., Ra7; 26 Qd4 or 25..., Qb6+; 26 Kh1 with 26 Qf3 to follow.
3) 22..., Ke7; when White has either a variation of the 23 Nxc6+ option again or simply 23 fg with 24 Qf3 to follow, if possible - if 23..., Nxd4?; 24 Qxd4 threatens all sorts of mayhem on the f-file with Qf6(+)xf7(+) and Rfd1(+), etc, as 24..., e5 fails to 25 Rxf7+ (assuming Black's queen is still on a5 and White's bishop is still on a2!).

That was what I was thinking - none of this having been checked with a computer, so any errors are mine - as they always are with a rusty human player!  Embarrassed

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas
  
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slates
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Re: some QGA analysis
Reply #1 - 12/31/08 at 18:34:37
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Markovich wrote on 12/31/08 at 17:26:53:

So while Avrukh's omission of 15...h6 and any consideration of Rizzitano's analysis is strange, it may be that White is significantly better anyway.  Who is right, Avrukh or Rizzitano?  It seems to depend on 25...Qd5 in line 2.


Inspired by the analysis Markovich has kindly offered here, I had a look at my QGA books. 
Without giving away too much from these, the authors of each source I have (Raetsky, Semkov, Rizzitano, Ward) where this line is discussed (actually Ward's book deviates long before this position) are at odds with each other; Semkov quotes Bareev's analysis (15...h6! as mentioned by Rizzitano) but still prefers earlier deviations to entering this line, whilst Raetsky is somewhat lighter on analysis but instead offers a possible improvement for White on move 15 but also follows a slightly different continuation for Black after 15.Ba2, namely that of Pert-Greet, Hastings 2005/6.

As none of that fully answers the question posed by Markovich I think getting down and dirty with his analysis must be the next thing to do.  I hope someone out there is up to the task - I fear I may not be competent to make even my own humble assessment as we near the turn of the year.....  
  
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Markovich
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some QGA analysis
12/31/08 at 17:26:53
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I was comparing Avrukh's QGA treatment with Rizzitano's, and I noticed that Avrukh completely omits one of Rizzitano's major ideas after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3 e6 5.Bxc4 c5 6.0-0 a6 7.Bb3 b5 8.a4 b5 9.Nbd2 Bb7 10.e4 cxd4 11.e5 Nfd7 12.Nc4 Nc6 13.Bg5 Qc7 14.Rc1 Nc5 15.Ba2.  Here Avrukh considers only 15...Ne4 and concludes that White is much better.  Rizzitano marks 15...Ne4 with a question mark, and recommends instead 15...h6, continuing 16.Bf4 g5 17.Nd6+ Bxd6 18.exd6 Qb6 19.Bg3 Ne4 20.a5 Qxa5 21.Nxd4.  That brings up this position, which is also diagrammed on page 79 of Rizzitano's excellent book, How to Beat 1.d4

http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=r3k2r/1b3p2/p1nPp2p/q5p1/...

Rizzitano analyzes two continuations:

1.  21...Qxa2 22.Nxc6 Bxc6 23.Rxc6 Qd5 24.Qa4 0-0 25.Rd1 Nc5 26.Rxd5 Nxa4 and here I think that 27.Rd4! is a better move than Rizzitano's suggestion 27.Rd2.  The rook is more active here, and after 27...Rfc8 (Black can't get away with 27...Nxb2 28.d7 a5 29.Bd6) 28.Rxc8 Rxc8 29.h3, White wins Black's b-pawn and appears to have a dominating position with his passed d-pawn.  

2. 21...Nxg3 22.Nxc6 Bxc6 23.hxg3 Qxa2 24.Rxc6 0-0 "=".  I first thought that this was in White's favor after  25.Qd4 a5 26.Rc5 (preventing Qd5).  However I am now less certain because Black can play 25...Qd5.  This seems to be the critical line for the evaluation of the diagrammed position.

3.  I also looked at 21...Nxg3 22.Nxc6 Bxc6 23.hxg3 Qb6 (instead of 23...Qxa2), but 24.Qh5 (24.Re1 0-0-0!?) 24...Kf8 (perhaps better is 24...Bd7 but after 25.Rfd1 I wouldn't want to be Black) 25.Bxe6! fxe6 26.Qg6 Be8 (26...Bd7 27.Rfd1 followed soon by Rd3) 27.Qxe6 and Black's defense is extremely difficult.

So while Avrukh's omission of 15...h6 and any consideration of Rizzitano's analysis is strange, it may be that White is significantly better anyway.  Who is right, Avrukh or Rizzitano?  It seems to depend on 25...Qd5 in line 2.
  

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