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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System? (Read 14587 times)
ghenghisclown
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Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #40 - 03/17/09 at 01:18:14
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9.h3 is a good move. Haven't you ever encountered text and analysis by strong players, teaching in a basic way, giving exclams to well established moves?
  

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kylemeister
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Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #39 - 03/17/09 at 00:31:56
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In the spirit of 8. Rb1! and some other things I've seen here recently like 1. Nf3 d5 2. c4 d4!?, I am expecting to see soon 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6!? or 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. 0-0 Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 d6 8. c3 0-0 9. h3!.
  
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ghenghisclown
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Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #38 - 03/16/09 at 23:55:46
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kylemeister wrote on 03/16/09 at 22:44:56:
Well, this is a decent long-standing major line of the English.  I get a little puzzled when people start attaching things like "effective" and "!" to it.
 


Rb1 is a good move. I didn't claim it was winning, just a good move. I now regret not having obtained written permission from the cognoscenti.

if this will make you feel better:

1.d4? Nf6!!! 2.c4? g6!!! 3.Nc3? Bg7! 4.e4?? d6!!! 5.Nf3? 0-0!!!
6.Be2? e5!!!!!! and White loses on time.


Now you do have a point. Black can get an attack on the Kingside. I just feel that it takes him a little longer to do so.
  

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kylemeister
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Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #37 - 03/16/09 at 22:44:56
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Well, this is a decent long-standing major line of the English.  I get a little puzzled when people start attaching things like "effective" and "!" to it.  I would doubt that it can really be described as "simple" and "easy to learn." Black has a number of respected ways of playing, some centrally-oriented, some kingside-oriented; if someone thinks Black is deprived of kingside attacking chances, three games I can think of that they might consider are Mednis-Zapata, Petrosian-Vasiukov and Tolenaar-Li Shilong.  (The last two are somewhat different in that Black delays/omits ...e5.  Petrosian later [against Fischer] went into a sort of tempo-down Fianchetto KID to avoid that sort of thing.)  

 
  
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ghenghisclown
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Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #36 - 03/16/09 at 20:40:19
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Exclamations are not just for novelties, they're also for standard and decent moves viewed in context. The move is simple and strong from the Black side (that's my understanding anyway, I don't really play the Sicilian)and so it might be even better from White.

If I were discussing the KID with a student (I sometimes teach) I might give Black's f5 an exclam too.

The idea of "equality" or "unclarity" is not the point. The major idea in this thread is 1) Simple system with some bite that can be learned relatively quickly 2)prevents Black's usual plans, makes it harder to achieve, or otherwise is a pain for the KID player to face.

So far, I like the Kramer and this (Reversed Closed Sicilian) a lot. Another one I've seen discussed, which probably carries more theory, is this Averbakh with 5.Be2 and 6.Bg5. the RCS is great because you can get into it (correct me if I'm wrong) from 1.Nf3 or 1.c4 with g3. I can tell you from experience that a great deal of players respond to 1.c4 with the KID.
  

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Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #35 - 03/16/09 at 15:54:42
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I'm a bit nonplussed to see an exclamation mark appended to such a move (it's very natural and has been considered standard for decades).

I wouldn't think that that line would generally be included under the term "Reversed Closed Sicilian," since in the Closed it's unusual for White to play Nf3 without f4 first.  Is this the line which Watson reportedly considers good for White in his recent book?  That would be interesting, since it has generally been considered that Black should be able to reach equality (or unclarity), and in more than one way.
  
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ghenghisclown
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Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #34 - 03/16/09 at 12:00:46
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Well I found Hansen's review of the book, and he (YES!) included a sample game. This is a good option to have, if I'm not mistaken, for English Opening players. From that move order we get

1.c4 Nf6 2.g3 g6 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.Nc3 0-0 5.Bg2 d6 6.0-0 e5 7.d3 Nc6 8.Rb1!

I guess the Fianchetto KID is neat option for those that play both d4 and c4. But I don't know about that. Some of the theory is scary.
  

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Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #33 - 03/16/09 at 10:58:33
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The SOR book is actually pretty good, although as noted previously it is certainly not 'hole-proof' in terms of building a repertoire. But no books really are.
But what it does so, and in spades, is show how to play the 'reverse closed sicilian' type setup. Very instructive to work through. A substantial chunk of the book devoted to this line.
That said, still rather hard when black chucking stuff at the white king. Steady nerves required. Suggest plenty of online practice before OTB.

Suggest that you may well like to buy the book ghengisclown.
  
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ghenghisclown
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Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #32 - 03/16/09 at 03:56:49
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This doesn't show me the full setup, since I assume White's Knight in SOR is played to f3. Where does the epawn go? Where are the sample games? Everytime I google this I usually get references to Donaldson's book and that's about it. What would you say is the model GAME that shows to a tee how this approach for White pays off?
  

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Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #31 - 03/16/09 at 02:12:59
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Compare 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 (2.d3 and 5.f4) Nc6 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.d3 with 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 d6 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 evt. 5...Nc6.
This in contrast with 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 d5 4.cxd5 Nxd5 which is sometimes called a Reversed Open Sicilian.

There are some obvious similarities between the Closed Sicilian and the Reversed Closed Sicilian. In the Closed Sicilian White's main choice is between a setup with Be3 and Qd2 (favoured by Smyslov) and f4 and Nf3 (favoured by Spassky). Black can play ...e6 and ...d5, evt. ...Nge7 first. With colours reversed Taimanov calls this the Staunton System. Black also can play ...d6; ...e5 and ...Nge7, the Botvinnik System. Then there is ...Nf6 and ...0-0 and also the early ...Rb8 and ...b5. In the Reversed Closed Sicilian White has exactly the same options.

Sample games in abundance, also on the highest levels. Too much work to give even a short list.
  

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Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #30 - 03/15/09 at 21:53:18
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What exactly is this Reversed Closed Sicilian, since I don't own a copy of Strategic Opening Repertoire and only seen it alluded to. Can you give some sample games? (or links to them)
  

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Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #29 - 03/15/09 at 13:34:53
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Since you play 1.c4 you can just play the reversed (closed) sicilian against the KID, it's an effective setup against it.
Most KID'ers I know hate to face this setup the most.

Unownasofyet wrote on 01/01/09 at 02:49:17:
I play 1.c4 as White, and I have had a lot of trouble against the KID. I have used 1.c4, Nf6 2.Nf3, g6 3.b4, but I want to be able to play 2.Nc3 to be able to play the Mikenas Attack, but I now have no idea what to do against the KID. Is there a (relatively by KID standards) low theory, positional, and sound line I can use? I have no idea what to do.

  
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Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #28 - 03/15/09 at 02:08:18
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I just had a very good experience with 5.Nge2. I just thought this was a throw-away line until I saw that Tregubov and Ushenina play it.
  

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Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #27 - 02/27/09 at 20:30:53
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if you are starting 1.c4, i am surprised that no one has yet mentioned the Reversed Closed Sicilian.

i think this is annoying for most KID players, and it is not especially sharp.
  

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Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #26 - 02/26/09 at 11:23:04
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The Torre is a relatively easy to learn Anti-KID system, especially given that there have been a couple of good books written on the Torre as White.

Obviously Black equalises if he knows his theory, but if you relish positional/strategic middlegames where the fight is postponed to the middlegame, then this variation is a logical choice. In my experience Black players often have not properly studied this variation, although that may change with Dembo's 'Fighting the Anti-King's Indians'.

However, if you want to fight for an opening advantage against the King's Indian, then in my view the Classical, Samisch, Fianchetto and Four Pawns are the strongest choices.

5.Bd3 0-0/d6 6.Nge2 is a reasonable choice. It works quite well if Black hasn't faced it before, although against a prepared player it is difficult to fight for more than a slight positional edge.
  

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