Latest Updates:
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System? (Read 14590 times)
ghenghisclown
God Member
*****
Offline


Pedicare Vestri Latin

Posts: 1022
Location: HollyWeird
Joined: 07/19/06
Gender: Male
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #40 - 03/17/09 at 01:18:14
Post Tools
9.h3 is a good move. Haven't you ever encountered text and analysis by strong players, teaching in a basic way, giving exclams to well established moves?
  

"Experience is a dim lamp, which only lights the one who bears it."
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4707
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #39 - 03/17/09 at 00:31:56
Post Tools
In the spirit of 8. Rb1! and some other things I've seen here recently like 1. Nf3 d5 2. c4 d4!?, I am expecting to see soon 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6!? or 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. 0-0 Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 d6 8. c3 0-0 9. h3!.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ghenghisclown
God Member
*****
Offline


Pedicare Vestri Latin

Posts: 1022
Location: HollyWeird
Joined: 07/19/06
Gender: Male
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #38 - 03/16/09 at 23:55:46
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 03/16/09 at 22:44:56:
Well, this is a decent long-standing major line of the English.  I get a little puzzled when people start attaching things like "effective" and "!" to it.
 


Rb1 is a good move. I didn't claim it was winning, just a good move. I now regret not having obtained written permission from the cognoscenti.

if this will make you feel better:

1.d4? Nf6!!! 2.c4? g6!!! 3.Nc3? Bg7! 4.e4?? d6!!! 5.Nf3? 0-0!!!
6.Be2? e5!!!!!! and White loses on time.


Now you do have a point. Black can get an attack on the Kingside. I just feel that it takes him a little longer to do so.
  

"Experience is a dim lamp, which only lights the one who bears it."
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4707
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #37 - 03/16/09 at 22:44:56
Post Tools
Well, this is a decent long-standing major line of the English.  I get a little puzzled when people start attaching things like "effective" and "!" to it.  I would doubt that it can really be described as "simple" and "easy to learn." Black has a number of respected ways of playing, some centrally-oriented, some kingside-oriented; if someone thinks Black is deprived of kingside attacking chances, three games I can think of that they might consider are Mednis-Zapata, Petrosian-Vasiukov and Tolenaar-Li Shilong.  (The last two are somewhat different in that Black delays/omits ...e5.  Petrosian later [against Fischer] went into a sort of tempo-down Fianchetto KID to avoid that sort of thing.)  

 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ghenghisclown
God Member
*****
Offline


Pedicare Vestri Latin

Posts: 1022
Location: HollyWeird
Joined: 07/19/06
Gender: Male
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #36 - 03/16/09 at 20:40:19
Post Tools
Exclamations are not just for novelties, they're also for standard and decent moves viewed in context. The move is simple and strong from the Black side (that's my understanding anyway, I don't really play the Sicilian)and so it might be even better from White.

If I were discussing the KID with a student (I sometimes teach) I might give Black's f5 an exclam too.

The idea of "equality" or "unclarity" is not the point. The major idea in this thread is 1) Simple system with some bite that can be learned relatively quickly 2)prevents Black's usual plans, makes it harder to achieve, or otherwise is a pain for the KID player to face.

So far, I like the Kramer and this (Reversed Closed Sicilian) a lot. Another one I've seen discussed, which probably carries more theory, is this Averbakh with 5.Be2 and 6.Bg5. the RCS is great because you can get into it (correct me if I'm wrong) from 1.Nf3 or 1.c4 with g3. I can tell you from experience that a great deal of players respond to 1.c4 with the KID.
  

"Experience is a dim lamp, which only lights the one who bears it."
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4707
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #35 - 03/16/09 at 15:54:42
Post Tools
I'm a bit nonplussed to see an exclamation mark appended to such a move (it's very natural and has been considered standard for decades).

I wouldn't think that that line would generally be included under the term "Reversed Closed Sicilian," since in the Closed it's unusual for White to play Nf3 without f4 first.  Is this the line which Watson reportedly considers good for White in his recent book?  That would be interesting, since it has generally been considered that Black should be able to reach equality (or unclarity), and in more than one way.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ghenghisclown
God Member
*****
Offline


Pedicare Vestri Latin

Posts: 1022
Location: HollyWeird
Joined: 07/19/06
Gender: Male
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #34 - 03/16/09 at 12:00:46
Post Tools
Well I found Hansen's review of the book, and he (YES!) included a sample game. This is a good option to have, if I'm not mistaken, for English Opening players. From that move order we get

1.c4 Nf6 2.g3 g6 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.Nc3 0-0 5.Bg2 d6 6.0-0 e5 7.d3 Nc6 8.Rb1!

I guess the Fianchetto KID is neat option for those that play both d4 and c4. But I don't know about that. Some of the theory is scary.
  

"Experience is a dim lamp, which only lights the one who bears it."
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bibs
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 2256
Joined: 10/24/06
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #33 - 03/16/09 at 10:58:33
Post Tools
The SOR book is actually pretty good, although as noted previously it is certainly not 'hole-proof' in terms of building a repertoire. But no books really are.
But what it does so, and in spades, is show how to play the 'reverse closed sicilian' type setup. Very instructive to work through. A substantial chunk of the book devoted to this line.
That said, still rather hard when black chucking stuff at the white king. Steady nerves required. Suggest plenty of online practice before OTB.

Suggest that you may well like to buy the book ghengisclown.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ghenghisclown
God Member
*****
Offline


Pedicare Vestri Latin

Posts: 1022
Location: HollyWeird
Joined: 07/19/06
Gender: Male
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #32 - 03/16/09 at 03:56:49
Post Tools
This doesn't show me the full setup, since I assume White's Knight in SOR is played to f3. Where does the epawn go? Where are the sample games? Everytime I google this I usually get references to Donaldson's book and that's about it. What would you say is the model GAME that shows to a tee how this approach for White pays off?
  

"Experience is a dim lamp, which only lights the one who bears it."
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10607
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #31 - 03/16/09 at 02:12:59
Post Tools
Compare 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 (2.d3 and 5.f4) Nc6 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.d3 with 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 d6 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 evt. 5...Nc6.
This in contrast with 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 d5 4.cxd5 Nxd5 which is sometimes called a Reversed Open Sicilian.

There are some obvious similarities between the Closed Sicilian and the Reversed Closed Sicilian. In the Closed Sicilian White's main choice is between a setup with Be3 and Qd2 (favoured by Smyslov) and f4 and Nf3 (favoured by Spassky). Black can play ...e6 and ...d5, evt. ...Nge7 first. With colours reversed Taimanov calls this the Staunton System. Black also can play ...d6; ...e5 and ...Nge7, the Botvinnik System. Then there is ...Nf6 and ...0-0 and also the early ...Rb8 and ...b5. In the Reversed Closed Sicilian White has exactly the same options.

Sample games in abundance, also on the highest levels. Too much work to give even a short list.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ghenghisclown
God Member
*****
Offline


Pedicare Vestri Latin

Posts: 1022
Location: HollyWeird
Joined: 07/19/06
Gender: Male
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #30 - 03/15/09 at 21:53:18
Post Tools
What exactly is this Reversed Closed Sicilian, since I don't own a copy of Strategic Opening Repertoire and only seen it alluded to. Can you give some sample games? (or links to them)
  

"Experience is a dim lamp, which only lights the one who bears it."
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
cyronix
Ex Member
*



Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #29 - 03/15/09 at 13:34:53
Post Tools
Since you play 1.c4 you can just play the reversed (closed) sicilian against the KID, it's an effective setup against it.
Most KID'ers I know hate to face this setup the most.

Unownasofyet wrote on 01/01/09 at 02:49:17:
I play 1.c4 as White, and I have had a lot of trouble against the KID. I have used 1.c4, Nf6 2.Nf3, g6 3.b4, but I want to be able to play 2.Nc3 to be able to play the Mikenas Attack, but I now have no idea what to do against the KID. Is there a (relatively by KID standards) low theory, positional, and sound line I can use? I have no idea what to do.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ghenghisclown
God Member
*****
Offline


Pedicare Vestri Latin

Posts: 1022
Location: HollyWeird
Joined: 07/19/06
Gender: Male
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #28 - 03/15/09 at 02:08:18
Post Tools
I just had a very good experience with 5.Nge2. I just thought this was a throw-away line until I saw that Tregubov and Ushenina play it.
  

"Experience is a dim lamp, which only lights the one who bears it."
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
katar
Senior Member
****
Offline


look another year went
by

Posts: 440
Location: LA
Joined: 09/21/05
Gender: Male
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #27 - 02/27/09 at 20:30:53
Post Tools
if you are starting 1.c4, i am surprised that no one has yet mentioned the Reversed Closed Sicilian.

i think this is annoying for most KID players, and it is not especially sharp.
  

2078 uscf
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
TN
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 3420
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #26 - 02/26/09 at 11:23:04
Post Tools
The Torre is a relatively easy to learn Anti-KID system, especially given that there have been a couple of good books written on the Torre as White.

Obviously Black equalises if he knows his theory, but if you relish positional/strategic middlegames where the fight is postponed to the middlegame, then this variation is a logical choice. In my experience Black players often have not properly studied this variation, although that may change with Dembo's 'Fighting the Anti-King's Indians'.

However, if you want to fight for an opening advantage against the King's Indian, then in my view the Classical, Samisch, Fianchetto and Four Pawns are the strongest choices.

5.Bd3 0-0/d6 6.Nge2 is a reasonable choice. It works quite well if Black hasn't faced it before, although against a prepared player it is difficult to fight for more than a slight positional edge.
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Nelson
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 77
Joined: 04/12/08
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #25 - 02/25/09 at 18:30:24
Post Tools
I play the Kings Indian as black and dislike the early h3 lines the most which is what I play as white.
Black often falters in the complex middlegames when f5 isn't a viable option but this is also the case with the Averbach lines. I think in a way the h3 lines are an alternative/improved Averbach variation where Nh5 and f5 are difficult to play.

In reality there isn't an easy line against the Kings Indian as we would all probably be playing it. Even simple lines (exchange variation) aren't easy once you delve into them.

Nelson. Cool
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10607
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #24 - 02/25/09 at 02:00:23
Post Tools
No supporters for the Seirawan-Variation 5.Bd3 and 6.Nge2 ? This can be played against the Modern Benoni as well.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TonyRo
God Member
*****
Offline


I'm gonna crack your skull!

Posts: 1778
Location: Cleveland, OH
Joined: 11/26/07
Gender: Male
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #23 - 02/24/09 at 18:22:46
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 02/23/09 at 16:01:33:
Well since posting about it above on the 6th of January, my Averbach System experiments have continued very satisfactorily.  Black never gets the kingside play that many KID experts find so amusing, and yet White has very respectable play for advantage.  I'm torn between this and my beloved Four Pawns Attack, which is an entirely different way of playing chess, of course.  But for the time being I'll persist with the Averbach since it seems to me that Black's problems aren't so easily solved even in his best lines.  Further if a reasonably intelligent shifting-about of one's pieces is enough for advantage, why embark upon a do-or-die attack?

I'll probably keep both weapons in my repertoire and choose the one best suited to my opponent.  But anyone who wants to play the Averbach should get ahold of the Offbeat KID book that a mentioned before.

I don't suppose I would call Averbach's easy to learn nor, of course, is it considered very critical to the KID.  But it's interesting.


Hi Markovich,

What line specifically do you play in the Averbach? I've always thought 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Be2 0-0 6. Bg5 Na6 7. Qd2 e5 8. d5 Nc5 9. f3 a5 10. h4 c6 11. g4 cxd5 12. cxd5 Bd7 to be okay for Black, as given in Gallaghers Play the King's Indian , though maybe it's just because I've rarely met someone who actually specialized in the Averbach. I've always itched to play 13. Nh3 b5!?, but I've never made it this far into Averbach theory in a real game.  Angry It's quite rare. I can also relate to looking for a second system to supplement the 4-pawns, which has been my main line against the KID for quite a while.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TN
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 3420
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #22 - 02/24/09 at 07:17:23
Post Tools
drkodos wrote on 02/23/09 at 14:29:28:
TN wrote on 02/23/09 at 09:00:02:
The Exchange Variation is very easy to learn, but against most players you will probably reach an equal ending that is difficult for either side to win, unless one of the players makes a severe positional mistake.



I know several Masters that employ the exchange variation regularly and score well with it as their main weapon against lower rated KID wielding opponents. Their argument is that the ensuing positions are no doubt equal, but contain a number of tricks and traps for the unwary and allow a stronger person outplay their opponent and that White can play without much risk with a draw always in hand.  

I think this is a valid perspective.


It is certainly a valid perspective, although I disagree with some parts of it.

I admit that I was a bit harsh when I said that Black has to make a severe positional mistake to lose. I agree with you that there are tricks and traps that Black has to be aware of, but the same could also be said for White, as in some lines White can run into trouble against a prepared Black opponent if he (W) is unprepared.

Still, I agree that it makes sense for the stronger player to play this, since as you stated, the stronger player is usually able to outplay his/her opponent. And if Black is the stronger player, then he can often play for the win with the draw in hand as well. I wouldn't recommend it as one's main choice against the KID as then KID advocates will not be surprised by it, but that is just my opinion.

There is a chapter on the Exchange KID from the book 'From the Opening to the Endgame' by Edmar Mednis. It's two decades old, but some of the strategic plans in it are highly relevant even today.

ECO E also has some coverage of this line, although since I don't have a copy of the latest issue I cannot comment on the quality and quantity of coverage.
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
drkodos
God Member
*****
Offline


I see....stars.

Posts: 778
Location: Jupiter, and beyond
Joined: 03/29/07
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #21 - 02/23/09 at 22:10:54
Post Tools
Novosibirsk wrote on 02/23/09 at 00:54:27:
By the way is there any book on the KID exchange variation ? (except Grivas antifianchetto book)


I won't claim the book price would be valued on just the one chapter, but Golubev's book has some good info on the Exchange variation.
  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dragan Glas
Senior Member
****
Offline


"If I, like Solomon, ...
could have my wish -
"

Posts: 424
Location: Ireland
Joined: 06/25/06
Gender: Male
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #20 - 02/23/09 at 18:20:09
Post Tools
Greetings,

Novosibirsk wrote on 02/23/09 at 00:54:27:
If you asked GM Ulf Andersson he would probably advocate the Exchange variation. Grinding down his oponent in move 115. You can probably learn to play it within 60 minutes. For me this is a real easy to learn "Anti-Kings Indian system". Its more about learning the upcoming endgames that will follow.

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chess.pl?yearcomp=exactly&year=&playercomp=white&...

By the way is there any book on the KID exchange variation ? (except Grivas antifianchetto book)

I first came across this variation in Mednis' From the Opening into the Endgame, where it was one of the lines he suggested for those wishing to by-pass the middle-game - presumably those who believe that they have better chances to out-play their opponent in the endgame.

I'd imagine, like most variations, it's covered in the standard KID books - Gallagher, etc - without any being specifically based solely on this variation.

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #19 - 02/23/09 at 16:01:33
Post Tools
Well since posting about it above on the 6th of January, my Averbach System experiments have continued very satisfactorily.  Black never gets the kingside play that many KID experts find so amusing, and yet White has very respectable play for advantage.  I'm torn between this and my beloved Four Pawns Attack, which is an entirely different way of playing chess, of course.  But for the time being I'll persist with the Averbach since it seems to me that Black's problems aren't so easily solved even in his best lines.  Further if a reasonably intelligent shifting-about of one's pieces is enough for advantage, why embark upon a do-or-die attack?

I'll probably keep both weapons in my repertoire and choose the one best suited to my opponent.  But anyone who wants to play the Averbach should get ahold of the Offbeat KID book that a mentioned before.

I don't suppose I would call Averbach's easy to learn nor, of course, is it considered very critical to the KID.  But it's interesting.
« Last Edit: 02/23/09 at 17:37:14 by Markovich »  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
drkodos
God Member
*****
Offline


I see....stars.

Posts: 778
Location: Jupiter, and beyond
Joined: 03/29/07
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #18 - 02/23/09 at 14:29:28
Post Tools
TN wrote on 02/23/09 at 09:00:02:
The Exchange Variation is very easy to learn, but against most players you will probably reach an equal ending that is difficult for either side to win, unless one of the players makes a severe positional mistake.



I know several Masters that employ the exchange variation regularly and score well with it as their main weapon against lower rated KID wielding opponents. Their argument is that the ensuing positions are no doubt equal, but contain a number of tricks and traps for the unwary and allow a stronger person outplay their opponent and that White can play without much risk with a draw always in hand. 

I think this is a valid perspective.
  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TN
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 3420
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #17 - 02/23/09 at 09:00:02
Post Tools
The Fianchetto Variation isn't too hard to learn, and is also low-maintenance, particularly if you don't play the absolute main lines (e.g. 6...Nbd7 7.Nc3 e5 8.h3 instead of 8.e4). I found this suggestion from Soltis's book 'Grandmaster Secrets: Openings'.

The Exchange Variation is very easy to learn, but against most players you will probably reach an equal ending that is difficult for either side to win, unless one of the players makes a severe positional mistake.
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Novosibirsk
Full Member
***
Offline


Chess is my life!

Posts: 111
Joined: 04/26/08
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #16 - 02/23/09 at 00:54:27
Post Tools
If you asked GM Ulf Andersson he would probably advocate the Exchange variation. Grinding down his oponent in move 115. You can probably learn to play it within 60 minutes. For me this is a real easy to learn "Anti-Kings Indian system". Its more about learning the upcoming endgames that will follow.

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chess.pl?yearcomp=exactly&year=&playercomp=white&...


By the way is there any book on the KID exchange variation ? (except Grivas antifianchetto book)
  

“I don’t play chess anymore, I play Fischer Random. It is a much better game, more challenge. Chess is a dead game, it is played out. Fischer Random is a version of chess that I developed or invented.
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Alias
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1504
Location: East of the river Svartån
Joined: 11/19/04
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #15 - 01/06/09 at 07:54:41
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 01/01/09 at 06:09:31:
I think that the Averbach system, 5.Be2 and 6.Bg5, has a great deal of promise and is fairly easy to play as White.  The best sources are Golubev's excellent KID book and Offbeat King's Indian by Panczuk and Ilczuk.  The latter is the most comprehensive.  I recently took this up, and my experience with it has been good.


There was also a book by Petursson but that's quite old now.
  

Don't check me with no lightweight stuff.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4707
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #14 - 01/06/09 at 04:48:53
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 01/06/09 at 01:39:54:
1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 g6 3.g3 Bg7 4.Bg2 0-0 5.d4 d6 6.e4 seems to lead to the KID Fianchetto without allowing the Grünfeld. 3...d5 4.exd5 Nxd5 5.Bg2 does not automatically transpose; after Nxc3 6.bxc3 Bg7 White may try 7.Rb1. Or can Black take benefit from this move order?


It's my impression that the line with 7. Rb1 has long been considered rather promising for White, and that Black gets better than he deserves in the first line after 6...c5 -- but he had already given up the opportunity to force any sort of Gruenfeld some moves before.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10607
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #13 - 01/06/09 at 01:39:54
Post Tools
1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 g6 3.g3 Bg7 4.Bg2 0-0 5.d4 d6 6.e4 seems to lead to the KID Fianchetto without allowing the Grünfeld. 3...d5 4.exd5 Nxd5 5.Bg2 does not automatically transpose; after Nxc3 6.bxc3 Bg7 White may try 7.Rb1. Or can Black take benefit from this move order?
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
wcywing
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 176
Joined: 01/04/08
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #12 - 01/05/09 at 12:20:27
Post Tools
i have played blitz against an expert level player and he does averbach variation, and then follows up with f4 then e5, real annoying.  however why not try the g3 variation?  most KID players don't like the g3 variation, of course you will have to prepare for a grunfeld as well.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dragan Glas
Senior Member
****
Offline


"If I, like Solomon, ...
could have my wish -
"

Posts: 424
Location: Ireland
Joined: 06/25/06
Gender: Male
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #11 - 01/04/09 at 22:36:12
Post Tools
Greetings,

kylemeister wrote on 01/04/09 at 02:53:33:
I must admit that I have trouble associating "White's attack plays itself" with the Averbakh; I think of the typical White-win scenarios as being positional/endgame squeezes of various kinds.

Agreed - I remember Gallagher, in his original book on the KID, saying that the Averbakh and certain others were more positionally-oriented than the more aggressive Four Pawns Attack.

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4707
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #10 - 01/04/09 at 02:53:33
Post Tools
I must admit that I have trouble associating "White's attack plays itself" with the Averbakh; I think of the typical White-win scenarios as being positional/endgame squeezes of various kinds.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dragan Glas
Senior Member
****
Offline


"If I, like Solomon, ...
could have my wish -
"

Posts: 424
Location: Ireland
Joined: 06/25/06
Gender: Male
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #9 - 01/04/09 at 01:38:22
Post Tools
Greetings,

Just for information, Watson reviews Offbeat King's Indian and is not too impressed with it.

http://www.chesscenter.com/twic/jwatsonbkrev68.html

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
refutor
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


Getting better everyday

Posts: 9
Joined: 09/16/08
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #8 - 01/04/09 at 00:54:39
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 01/01/09 at 06:09:31:
I think that the Averbach system, 5.Be2 and 6.Bg5, has a great deal of promise and is fairly easy to play as White.  The best sources are Golubev's excellent KID book and Offbeat King's Indian by Panczuk and Ilczuk.  The latter is the most comprehensive.  I recently took this up, and my experience with it has been good.


i agree with regards to easy to play as White.  if Black doesn't know what he's doing v. the averbakh, the attack plays itself Smiley  i don't always win with the averbakh (although i have a fairly good score with it) but i always think i get a good position (Rybka may disagree)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
spam fritter
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 15
Joined: 12/12/08
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #7 - 01/01/09 at 21:56:13
Post Tools
Why not adopt a closed English formation ie c4 Nc3 g3 Bg2 d3 Nf3 0-0 Rb1 et seq which is nicely (albeit briefly) covered at the end of Watson's Mastering the Chess Openings volume 3 (as he did in 1979(!) he also chucks in - again briefly -  the Botvinnik approach).

This also works with a 1,Nf3 2.c4 approach if you ever mix things up (whereas the Hungarian is no longer possible this way round).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10607
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #6 - 01/01/09 at 17:33:19
Post Tools
Unownasofyet wrote on 01/01/09 at 02:49:17:
Is there a (relatively by KID standards) low theory, positional, and sound line I can use? I have no idea what to do.


My first thought was the Botvinnik Wall as well, which also can be reached after 1.c4 e5. Even after 1.c4 c5 there are some cases where this Wall is interesting.
My second thought was Bd3, Nge2, but such lines have the disadvantage that Black may transpose to the Benoni with ...c5. That might not be to Unownasofyet's taste.
So after all 1.c4, 2.Nc3, 3.g3, 4.Bg2 and then some typical English system might suit him best after all. Make sure to look at the Closed Sicilian as well, which is to some extent an English with colours reversed.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bibs
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 2256
Joined: 10/24/06
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #5 - 01/01/09 at 12:29:55
Post Tools
Good choice Kowl. I used to have problems against it for a long time.

All those Bd3, h3, Nge2 lines are a bit tricky for blacks as they reach quite different setups requiring diffferent thinking. Lifer KIDers like myself cant just autopilot through. Need concrete prep.

Oh, forgot to mention Novikov as a main exponent earlier.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Kowl
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 63
Joined: 10/28/08
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #4 - 01/01/09 at 11:43:22
Post Tools
Bibs wrote on 01/01/09 at 04:24:21:
Now there is a question.
None easy as such.

Suggest the Nge2 Hungarian/Kramer as worth a bash. Easy hacks at club level on the kings side, but even at high levels knowledgeable blacks can get a beating. See Neverov-Williams from yesterday at sunny, lovely Hastings.

Check out games by e.g. Forintos, Serper, Neverov, Williams.

Sources

Forintos - Nge2 Kings Indian
Keene/Levy repertoire for white one. Keen has a bad rep obviously, and for good reason, but this book was good for its time.
Panczyk and Ilczuk  - Offbeat Kings Indian


Fwiw, Bronstein (!) suggested to me that playing c5 with benoni  is best against this. Most recommend ...a6...c6 as per the Gallagher anti-KID book.

Forgive the lack of apostrophes and colons. My keyboard has gone Japanese on me.




I've been playing the Hungarian and got decent results against a few FMs (which is good for me) for the last few years. Chose it because it's very easy to learn the positional ideas and attacks.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #3 - 01/01/09 at 06:09:31
Post Tools
I think that the Averbach system, 5.Be2 and 6.Bg5, has a great deal of promise and is fairly easy to play as White.  The best sources are Golubev's excellent KID book and Offbeat King's Indian by Panczuk and Ilczuk.  The latter is the most comprehensive.  I recently took this up, and my experience with it has been good.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4707
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #2 - 01/01/09 at 05:04:20
Post Tools
Bibs, you meant Keene's "An Opening Repertoire for White" (there was a Keene/Levy "Opening Repertoire for the Attacking Player" which had 1. e4 for White).  Oh yeah, there was a second edition of the Keene book that he did with Byron Jacobs.

My first thought in response to the question was to play for a Botvinnik system, which can certainly be effective against mechanical/clueless KID-type moves (I always recall the game Markland-Hort, also from Hastings, but some time ago).  
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bibs
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 2256
Joined: 10/24/06
Re: What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
Reply #1 - 01/01/09 at 04:24:21
Post Tools
Now there is a question.
None easy as such.

Suggest the Nge2 Hungarian/Kramer as worth a bash. Easy hacks at club level on the kings side, but even at high levels knowledgeable blacks can get a beating. See Neverov-Williams from yesterday at sunny, lovely Hastings.

Check out games by e.g. Forintos, Serper, Neverov, Williams.

Sources

Forintos - Nge2 Kings Indian
Keene/Levy repertoire for white one. Keen has a bad rep obviously, and for good reason, but this book was good for its time.
Panczyk and Ilczuk  - Offbeat Kings Indian


Fwiw, Bronstein (!) suggested to me that playing c5 with benoni  is best against this. Most recommend ...a6...c6 as per the Gallagher anti-KID book.

Forgive the lack of apostrophes and colons. My keyboard has gone Japanese on me.


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Unownasofyet
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 22
Location: playing chess
Joined: 11/24/08
What is an Easy to Learn Anti-KID System?
01/01/09 at 02:49:17
Post Tools
I play 1.c4 as White, and I have had a lot of trouble against the KID. I have used 1.c4, Nf6 2.Nf3, g6 3.b4, but I want to be able to play 2.Nc3 to be able to play the Mikenas Attack, but I now have no idea what to do against the KID. Is there a (relatively by KID standards) low theory, positional, and sound line I can use? I have no idea what to do.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo