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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit (Read 129907 times)
drkodos
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #62 - 02/04/09 at 14:15:47
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ArKheiN wrote on 02/04/09 at 09:47:13:
1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 f5 4.Bg5 a6, is it really a good move? Depend on what Black has in mind. What I know here, is my next move, 5.f3, because it was what I wanted to play with 4.Bg5. Now I think Black will play 5..exf3 6.Nxf3. What do I see as a compensation? 3 develloped pieces and a d4-pawn against a pawn on a6 and a pawn on f5, holes in Black's light squares. That's may be worth a pawn to me.


1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 f5 4.Bg5 a6

And now:

5.f3 Nf6  

There really is no way to force Black to capture that f4 3 pawn.  Why should Black help us out?

ArKheiN wrote on 02/04/09 at 10:12:48:
Would you win against every BDG you could face? The BDG is proved to be worse for White than for Black? If yes, is it easy to prove that?  White players couldn't learn anything from the BDG, couldn't they win or have fun win it? A BDG book is not less respectable than any other chess opening book.



I took this post from the other thread on the BDG.

~ I think it is easy to prove this is worse for White. I am trying my best as White.  Playing for a win (as always!)

~ I am playing White pieces (and am a white player!)and I am trying to see what I can learn from this BGD. So far, the lessons learned is to not play it again.

~ I'm not having all that much fun with it.  The resultant position is miserable.

I do not (yet?) see any way for White to even gain true equality and I do not (yet?) see how this would be helping me learn to play better chess.   

The pieces are very difficult to coordinate because the pawn structure is horrible.  My biggest fear is that I might actually be losing knowledge playing this.   Wink







6.Qd2 c5!?
  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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ArKheiN
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #61 - 02/04/09 at 09:47:13
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1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 f5 4.Bg5 a6, is it really a good move? Depend on what Black has in mind. What I know here, is my next move, 5.f3, because it was what I wanted to play with 4.Bg5. Now I think Black will play 5..exf3 6.Nxf3. What do I see as a compensation? 3 develloped pieces and a d4-pawn against a pawn on a6 and a pawn on f5, holes in Black's light squares. That's may be worth a pawn to me.
  
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drkodos
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #60 - 02/04/09 at 05:35:12
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1.d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 f5 4. Bg5 a6!?

Before I embarrass myself by giving my next set of moves, what type of compensation is here?  What move would a BDG'er toss out as White here?

I did not like the look of 4.f3 e5 but without knowing what am I supposed to be aiming for I figured here & now I was supposed to go Whole Hog and played "the move" because what else is there to play?




It's been days now, but my mouth still tastes like snake oil.


To be clear, the game is ongoing, I am at move 12, and am not looking for deep analysis.  Just wondering if there was some "theory" and a "tabiya" to see where I turned off the solid BGD path that leads to glorious victory for the player of the White pieces.

  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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SWJediknight
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #59 - 02/04/09 at 00:51:46
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Stefan Bucker in Kaissiber 5 recommends 4.Bg5 and suggests it gives compensation, if I remember rightly.  He also mentions that 4.f3 e5! is poor for White.
  
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Nelson
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #58 - 02/03/09 at 20:15:30
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Hi Kylemeister,

I have checked the games of the players you mentioned and it appears that they were used some time ago and not really repeated.

This leads me to suspect that they were generally experiments with suprise value and if the line was a good one how is it that there is only a handful of games on Chessbase where both players a graded over 2400 and not very recent at that.

Who is the strongest player who regularly plays this line?? especially since  good anti-dutch lines are so popular these days.

I agree that  4 Bf4 seems to be the most logical move but I can't see the advantage if black avoids moving Nc6 too early allowing Bb5. I will nethertheless check out ArKheiN's suggestion that 4 Bg5 gives white compensation although I am not believing it at the moment.

Regards,
Nelson  Huh
  
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Viking
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #57 - 02/03/09 at 20:03:29
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drkodos wrote on 02/02/09 at 23:05:03:
....
After all the fumferry here I got caught up in I decided to give the BDG a punt in a CC game (5o days/10 moves on ICC).   My opponent played this variation as Black.  1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe 3.Nc3 f5  
Game is on going.   As White, I am 400+ higher rated and my postion is now miserable and a loss looks to be on the horizons!   Smiley

...

Is there actual theory in this line?    Grin  Feels like I effed up a Dutch/Staunton attack and let him play two moves, or something silly.


Yes, this is "normal" dutch theory and is covered in various sources, like Steffen Pedersen's leningrad book.

The dutch move order is: 1.d4 f5 2.Nc3 d5 3.e4!? dxe4
  
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drkodos
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #56 - 02/02/09 at 23:05:03
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ArKheiN wrote on 02/02/09 at 22:07:07:
1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 f5 is maybe playable, but positionnally bad (white's squares weakened for ever), and doesn't developp anything. White has tried many moves with more or less success (4.f3, 4.Bg5, 4.Bc4, 4.Bf4, 4.Nh3), and the most popular has been 4.f3, which is good against 4..Nf6 or 4..exf3. But I think 4..e5 is good here, and it's the reason I would probably play 4.Bg5 here (prevent ..e5 and that move is often played against a future Nf6 anyway), followed by f3. Impossible to prove who is better here but I would say that White has at least sufficient compensations for the pawn.


After all the fumferry here I got caught up in I decided to give the BDG a punt in a CC game (5o days/10 moves on ICC).   My opponent played this variation as Black.  1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe 3.Nc3 f5  
Game is on going.   As White, I am 400+ higher rated and my postion is now miserable and a loss looks to be on the horizons!   Smiley

Seriously.  I will post it when finished for a good laugh at my expense (and my rating  Grin)  I hope one day someone will show me where my "compensation" was and how I was supposed to use it.

Is there actual theory in this line?    Grin  Feels like I effed up a Dutch/Staunton attack and let him play two moves, or something silly.
  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #55 - 02/02/09 at 22:56:22
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Well, every book I know of thinks 4. f3 e5 is good for Black, and they tend to prefer 4. Bf4, which it would appear has been played by clearly more GMs and IMs than the others.
  
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ArKheiN
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #54 - 02/02/09 at 22:07:07
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1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 f5 is maybe playable, but positionnally bad (white's squares weakened for ever), and doesn't developp anything. White has tried many moves with more or less success (4.f3, 4.Bg5, 4.Bc4, 4.Bf4, 4.Nh3), and the most popular has been 4.f3, which is good against 4..Nf6 or 4..exf3. But I think 4..e5 is good here, and it's the reason I would probably play 4.Bg5 here (prevent ..e5 and that move is often played against a future Nf6 anyway), followed by f3. Impossible to prove who is better here but I would say that White has at least sufficient compensations for the pawn.
  
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Nelson
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #53 - 02/02/09 at 20:52:44
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Hi Kylemeister,

Whilst I was aware that Benjamin had played it on occasion quite a number of years ago, I will go away and check all 3 players games with this line to determine their results and try to understand where the compensation is comming from.

Thanks for the lead.

Kind regards, Nelson. Shocked
  
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #52 - 02/02/09 at 20:46:44
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Nelson wrote on 02/02/09 at 20:28:07:
Just picked up this thread and am supprised nobody has mentioned 1 d4 d5 2 e4 de 3 Nc3 f5!

Perhaps I'm being thick but isn't this a "not very promising Dutch gambit line" for white.

e.g 1 d4 f5 2 Nc3 d5 3 e4?! de.

I would appreciate someone showing some compensation for white in this line. Huh


Is there a particular reason to think that ECO and NCO (as well as people like Gelfand, Rublevsky and Benjamin who have played it as White) are wrong to think that it offers White compensation?
  
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Nelson
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #51 - 02/02/09 at 20:28:07
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Just picked up this thread and am supprised nobody has mentioned 1 d4 d5 2 e4 de 3 Nc3 f5!

Perhaps I'm being thick but isn't this a "not very promising Dutch gambit line" for white.

e.g 1 d4 f5 2 Nc3 d5 3 e4?! de.

I would appreciate someone showing some compensation for white in this line. Huh
  
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #50 - 01/21/09 at 00:48:35
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SWJediknight wrote on 01/19/09 at 18:44:47:
I don't really trust 5.Bc4 in the Hubsch, despite it being the main response, because for one thing, Black can simply play 5...c5 which equalises without much effort.  5...Nc6 6.c3 e5 is also at least equal, as endorsed by Eric Prie.

I prefer 5.Bf4, covering e5 and preparing for queenside castling and queenside play, throwing in f2-f3 at an appropriate moment.  In some lines the king's bishop might be better placed on d3, or b5 if Black goes queenside.


I certainly agree that Black is more than fine after 5.Bc4 but I'm not so sure 5.Bf4 is much better.  I have to admit though to not knowing any analysis of the move.  What should White do after say 5.Bf4 Bf5?
  
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #49 - 01/19/09 at 18:44:47
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I don't really trust 5.Bc4 in the Hubsch, despite it being the main response, because for one thing, Black can simply play 5...c5 which equalises without much effort.  5...Nc6 6.c3 e5 is also at least equal, as endorsed by Eric Prie.

I prefer 5.Bf4, covering e5 and preparing for queenside castling and queenside play, throwing in f2-f3 at an appropriate moment.  In some lines the king's bishop might be better placed on d3, or b5 if Black goes queenside.
  
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #48 - 01/19/09 at 00:19:30
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Even without sight of board, I can tell you that the line 1 d4 Nf6 2 Nc3 d5 3 e4 Nxe4 4 Nxe4 de4 5 Bc4 g6 6 f3? is not very good. I suggest 6 Be3, 7 000 8 Qd2 aiming to attack on the Kingside.
  
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