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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit (Read 129916 times)
drkodos
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #77 - 02/08/09 at 14:55:05
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swjediknight; I never stated it (3. ...f5) was the best move in that position, only that is it is one among several that lead to Black's better position that can be achieved if White plays the BGD gambit against a strong player that has done some homework.

I'm out for reasons expressed in my "clavius" post.

Good luck and good chess!
  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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SWJediknight
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #76 - 02/08/09 at 12:51:35
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So do I, on the rare occasions that I play 1.d4 and Black plays 1...f5 I usually aim for this 4.Bg5 6.Qe2 variation.  Black might be able to equalise with accurate play- but I certainly like the resulting positions for White.  If Black plays something other than 4...Nc6 then White can usually get an improved version of the 4.f3 Staunton.  

Still, with respect to the 4.f3 Staunton positions that can arise from 3.Nc3 f5 in the BDG, I think that 4.f3, while slightly inferior, shouldn't be worse than equal for White.

There's an article on the 'net that sums up my views perfectly, and Drkodos's scornful dismissal of the BDG reminds me of the attitude described in there.  I can't post a link as the site seems to be in some kind of "swear filter"- simply look up "What's the Deal with the BDG"?

But Drkodos hasn't answered my main point- if the BDG is argued to give White insufficient compensation for the pawn, and the Staunton gives equality, then how is 3...f5, which often transposes to the Staunton, a refutation of the BDG, or even close to being Black's best move in the position?

I've had 3...f5 played against me, btw, on a few occasions where I got a BDG against the Scandinavian (normally I play 1.e4 instead) and it is the response to the BDG that I've scored best against.
  
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ArKheiN
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #75 - 02/08/09 at 00:45:24
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The "true" gambit Staunton (1.d4 f5 2.e4 fxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5) is probably better than the 4.f3 Staunton. The position for Black tend to become strange here and I really like White in the Timoschenko system. I don't know if the dutch player really like theses positions as Black, but me, I wouldn't.
  
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drkodos
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #74 - 02/08/09 at 00:34:39
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SWJediknight wrote on 02/08/09 at 00:02:17:
Well, if you don't see a pawns' worth of compensation in those positions, it doesn't reflect very well upon the Staunton Gambit, which can also give rise to the same positions.



Dutch players do not fear the Staunton as much as White players hope or wish that they did.  One reason why is because Black gets a very playable and clear route to equality and gets to play for the full point.

The Staunton is better system, otb and in cc, for White than is the BGD, but it is still inferior to other choices against the Dutch, several of which actually do lead to a nagging and lasting edge for White.  It is from this position from which I prefer to play for the win.

Gambits do not have to be so "generous."  The Benko is a great example because Black gets simple to understand counter play and can usually can win back the material with ease, but often  DECLINES to so because the REAL PRESSUE Black gets often results in very tangible positional imbalances for which Black can actively play for the full point without merely relying on his opponents mistakes or their fundamentally inadequate understanding of the opening (something BGD'ers seem to prey upon with a very bizarrro and seriously misplaced sense of pride, IMHO).  

  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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SWJediknight
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #73 - 02/08/09 at 00:02:17
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Well, if you don't see a pawns' worth of compensation in those positions, it doesn't reflect very well upon the Staunton Gambit, which can also give rise to the same positions.
  
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drkodos
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #72 - 02/07/09 at 23:02:53
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Glenn Snow wrote on 02/07/09 at 22:49:49:
If you tire of an analytical exchange and verbal exchange why don't the two of you play a forum game here?  You'll have plenty of time to contemplate your moves and show that White doesn't have enough compensation.  Of course one game, no matter the time control, won't be the final word but it's a start.




It is not the analytical exchange nor the verbal (for which I enjoy tremendously!) that is the genesis of my fatigue.  

It is seeming lack of forward progress and the constant back-and-forth contradiction that to me is more reminiscent of exchanges between Apollo 11 Hoax conspiracists and www.clavius.org.

I side with Clavius.   Smiley  They are rather protective of their intellectual property, and rightly so, which makes me hestitant to re-post any of their sagacious prose on dealing with conspiracists.  But, if one wishes to follow this direct link, http://www.clavius.org/occam.html, it is the third graph down which I believe sums up my thoughts regarding these types of arguments.

As for a turn based game here in the forums, I am opposed to it as there are sufficient resources available to do this.  I understand the entertainment value that could be offered by this excellent proposal of yours (Glenn Snow) but I feel that many of the other user will look and react derisively to the use of their precious forum space.  Wink

  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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Glenn Snow
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #71 - 02/07/09 at 22:49:49
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drkodos wrote on 02/07/09 at 22:17:32:
There is no compensation in the position you sited that is worth a pawn, to me.  Fair enough?  In fact, I think there is better play for White in not taking the e-pawn, but that is another matter entirely.

I never use thought terminating cliches such as "we'll have to agree to disagree," and I won't here because I like provoking thoughtful argument and in discipline such as science, math and chess, I belive there may actually be a truth a right and wrong, as it were, and I like the excitement of continuing that pursuit.

So, I will just respectfully state I believe you are wholly incorrect (Wrong! ) with regard to the evaluation of this line in particular, and the BGD in general.

Nothing personal.  I am a big fan of your work (ideas and posts!)

I hope one day I get to take this argument with you to the venue it belongs, the chessboard.   Smiley

But for now, in good spirit with no ill feelings, I remain,

~ the nefarious, drkodos



If you tire of an analytical exchange and verbal exchange why don't the two of you play a forum game here?  You'll have plenty of time to contemplate your moves and show that White doesn't have enough compensation.  Of course one game, no matter the time control, won't be the final word but it's a start.
  
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drkodos
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #70 - 02/07/09 at 22:17:32
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There is no compensation in the position you sited that is worth a pawn, to me.  Fair enough?  In fact, I think there is better play for White in not taking the e-pawn, but that is another matter entirely.

I never use thought terminating cliches such as "we'll have to agree to disagree," and I won't here because I like provoking thoughtful argument and in discipline such as science, math and chess, I belive there may actually be a truth a right and wrong, as it were, and I like the excitement of continuing that pursuit.

So, I will just respectfully state I believe you are wholly incorrect (Wrong! ) with regard to the evaluation of this line in particular, and the BGD in general.

Nothing personal.  I am a big fan of your work (ideas and posts!)

I hope one day I get to take this argument with you to the venue it belongs, the chessboard.   Smiley

But for now, in good spirit with no ill feelings, I remain,

~ the nefarious, drkodos
  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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SWJediknight
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #69 - 02/07/09 at 20:33:06
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After 3...f5 4.Bg5, Fritz's openings book gives 4...g6, whereupon 5.Qd2 with 0-0-0 to follow should give nice compensation for White.

If instead 4...a6 as suggested above, 5.f3 Nf6 6.fxe4 Nxe4 7.Nxe4 fxe4, and now for example 8.Bc4 Nc6 9.c3 and castling on either side.  White has a lead in development and Black has doubled and isolated e-pawns.  Looks like full compensation to me.

The alternative of 6...fxe4 transposes to the Staunton Gambit, a position alternatively reached via 1.d4 f5 2.e4 fxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 d5 5.fxe4 dxe4 6.Bg5 a6.  I seriously doubt that 6...a6 is the best move in that position.  White continues with Bc4 and Nge2 and has fair compensation for the pawn.

Instead perhaps 4...Nf6 5.f3 Nc6, when White should continue with 6.d5, and again a series of exchanges on e4 are likely to cause a transposition to the Staunton Gambit: 1.d4 f5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Nc6 5.f3 d5 6.fxe4 etc.

If the best Black has against the BDG is to transpose to the Staunton Gambit- a line which is sound enough, if insufficient for advantage against best play- then the BDG is looking pretty healthy.   And I haven't even touched upon 4.Bf4 yet.  Thus I seriously doubt that 3...f5 is Black's best move.
  
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drkodos
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #68 - 02/06/09 at 01:44:30
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ArKhein, all good stuff.  Thank you.



For 40 years (with time off in between) I play the sharpest stuff and always have, as well as all types of Gambits particularly as Black where playing behind material can make one even more "anxious", if you catch my drift.

I stopped playing King Gambit as White long time ago because having to face reality of fighting for a draw against strong player most of the time was not what I wanted to do.  As black, yes.  But, as White? 

I find it harder to win that way.  For some reason, I win more from winning positions that I do from losing ones.  Go figure.


Heck, I even played the stupid Grob in the U/2200 section of the World Open and scored $$$!

Currently I am playing the Riga as Black otb, cc, Blitz on ICC and anywhere I can.    It is not considered sound.  For some reason I think maybe it is.  

I will continue to post this BGD game and you can punch it and smack it and show me where my moments of idiocy where.  I would appreciate that.  Clearly if I am playing garbage like the Spike, I can take a beating and walk away without it being the definition of what I am so please do not show any mercy if it is me.

But, is it not possible that the opening has a solid refutation? And, maybe more than one, at that?

Some do, you know.

  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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ArKheiN
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #67 - 02/05/09 at 22:44:07
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@drkodos: Firstly I think 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 f5 4.f3 e5! 5.dxe5 Qxd1+ 6.Kxd1 is around equal, but yes, that is very boring for White, and White should be happy with a draw after a boring game where skill is needed to keep the balance in an equal material game. But I have found a page about 3 games with 3..f5 4.Bf4!?, a respectable move, probably one of the best move here. http://bdgpages.blogspot.com/2008/10/from-dutch-to-bdg.html

Ok now let's talk point by point about that:

Quote:
~ I think it is easy to prove this is worse for White. I am trying my best as White.  Playing for a win (as always!)

~ I am playing White pieces (and am a white player!)and I am trying to see what I can learn from this BGD. So far, the lessons learned is to not play it again.

~ I'm not having all that much fun with it.  The resultant position is miserable.


- What is proved to be worse for White, the BDG in general or that 3..f5 line of the BDG?

- With the BDG, you may learn how to put pressure on Black with your free pieces, free diagonals and free files. You  may learn mating patterns and how to master activ pieces play against material. I think if you lost position with the BDG, it's because you mishandled that, that's not the fault of the BDG.

- Everyone doesn't like to play in a gambit style, I can understand that. If you like to give a pawn to have some pressure for that, the BDG should be ok. But you shouldn't get miserables positions with the BDG if you played that well.

Now about the position: 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 f5 4.Bg5 a6 5.f3 Nf6, ok you didn't want to take that pawn on f3, so you can't have a permanent pawn up by now, because the point of playing f3 is to take, or to be took. So I don't play 6.Qd2 now but 6.fxe4, and now after 6..Nxe4 7.Nxe4 fxe4 or 6..fxe4, what do I see? I see a weak e4-pawn and light squares weakness. The e4 pawn seems maybe annoying for you because White's knight can't go on f3 but that not a big problem. It will go to e2-g3 and the e4 pawn will fall sooner or later, so the material problem shouldn't exist. And White has none activity problem too. Black's pawn structure tell us that the bishop f8 will go on g7, that's nice for me because my Bg5 is already nicely placed, and I will play Qd2 and 0-0-0 with attacking plans on the kingside. The only thing I don't know yet is where I will put my f1 bishop, it depends how the game will continue. If I can it will go on c4, to profit of your light squares weakness. So, White is clearly alive, not winning, that sure, but not worse for me. It's a dynamical equality, and if White wins back the e4 pawn (I don't see how it could survive the entire game) in good conditions, Black may even be worse.

When you play a gambit, you shouldn't be afraid about the pawn down, you should learn how to use your dynamical advantage, playing gambits is a good teacher to learn the balance activity/material. So, only you will know if the BDG or gambit style is for you or not. But if you get bad positions with the BDG, it's because you mishandle it, the BDG is good enough to keep a dynamical equality or more in most cases!
  
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drkodos
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #66 - 02/05/09 at 22:22:18
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I am shocked, disappointed, even maybe have hurt feelings now.   Wink


1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 f5 4.Bg5 a6 5.f3 Nf6 6.Qd2 c5!?   and now I went with 7.d5 ?! because I did not want my "wife" leaving me soon soon.  Perhaps it was better to grab the pawn and trade, but I keep expecting this amazing attack that I've heard White gets.

 Wink


For sure I thought BGDer would have posted they see this line all the time and "here is a secret pathway to mess with Black's mind (and computer program)".  

Cool


For an opening that is so highly touted there is such uncharted waters off the coast of the fifth move?  I mean, I can see why, as White's position is horendous, but I thought some Kool-aid drinkers would at least have some marginal pathway that at least allows White to not get busted so soon.  

Cry



Maybe I should go the Gambit route?  Start naming all my moves here while simultaneously plying IM Wisnewski with all sorts of flattery hoping to get my grotesque name in an upcoming historical record?


Undecided


Cheesy
  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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Nelson
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #65 - 02/05/09 at 15:14:29
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Hi Kylemeister,

Thanks for the reply, not at a board at present but will check and reply accordingly.

My initial thought though is that perhaps exf3 is not necessary leaving it a bit awkward developing the knight.

Regards,
Nelson.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #64 - 02/04/09 at 18:49:49
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Nelson wrote on 02/03/09 at 20:15:30:
Hi Kylemeister,

I have checked the games of the players you mentioned and it appears that they were used some time ago and not really repeated.

This leads me to suspect that they were generally experiments with suprise value and if the line was a good one how is it that there is only a handful of games on Chessbase where both players a graded over 2400 and not very recent at that.

Who is the strongest player who regularly plays this line?? especially since  good anti-dutch lines are so popular these days.

I agree that  4 Bf4 seems to be the most logical move but I can't see the advantage if black avoids moving Nc6 too early allowing Bb5. I will nethertheless check out ArKheiN's suggestion that 4 Bg5 gives white compensation although I am not believing it at the moment.

Regards,
Nelson  Huh


Hi,

I don't know of anyone who plays it regularly.  Just from the general look of it I would think that White should probably get decent compensation, e.g. as in ECO's and NCO's quite plausible-looking main line (5. Bf4 Nf6 6. f3 ef 7. Nxf3 e6 8. Bc4 Bd6 9. Qd2 0-0 10. 0-0-0 c6 11. Rhe1 etc.).
  
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Nelson
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #63 - 02/04/09 at 17:58:28
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SWJediknight wrote on 02/04/09 at 00:51:46:
Stefan Bucker in Kaissiber 5 recommends 4.Bg5 and suggests it gives compensation, if I remember rightly.  He also mentions that 4.f3 e5! is poor for White.


Please let me see some compensation after a few more moves because I'm personally struggling with this one! Huh
  
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